im sure i read that we had supplied helicopters to syria
certainly we sold plenty of arms to assad when we liked him

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/07/17/uk-britain-arms-exports-idUKBRE96G0Q620130717

Parts for bullet-proof vehicles and underwater listening devices were approved for export to Syria

o Syria for body armor, military helmets and cryptographic software.

http://www.rt.com/uk/243085-uk-arms-human-rights/

weve certainly helped flood the region with weapons and the russian state miltary exporter Rosboronexport, is still invited to ExCel every year for our famous arms fair

apparently were selling components to russia for the helicopters http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/23/arms-export-licences-russia-pm-embargo-report

Really. The Syrian airforce operates Russian French and Polish helicopters according to wikipaedia. A captured Syrian pilot says it’s the Russian ones dropping barrel bombs. Maybe the Russians should take some miigrants?

No you’re right – we only sold them the chemical weapons they have used against the civilian population, and armed the rebels (that turned into/turned out to be ISIS).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28212724

Oh, and sold military equipment to Russia and Iran that they then sold on to Assad. Oh and actually we still had contracts to directly supply Assad until very recently.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/blood-money-uks-123bn-arms-sales-to-repressive-states-8711794.html

But other than that – great point – no blood on our hands at all.

JY Germany should have announced a complete plan including transport

It has emerged today that the Syrian family had applied to Canada as refugees and had been sponsored by a Canadian family (a “G5” application). This was rejected as the UN does not classify Syrian Kurds as refugees and the Turks will not give exit visas.

This crises is creating huge divisions in Europe and laid bare the EUs inability to manage the situation. The Austrians have made it clear they will not check people’s papers. The Hungarians have said Europe’s Christian roots are under threat and they will not allow their country to become a Caliphate. The Slovakians (a coup,e of weeks ago) said they will not take any Muslims as there are no Mosques in Slovakia. I don’t support either of these statements, I repeat them to show the stresses being created.

On the channel 4 Labour leaders debate there where many words about doing more but oine would commit to a total figure of refugees despite being pressed repeatedly. For all the words here on STW Labour politicians are well aware that making such commitments do not play well with the electorate. Corbyn was repeatedly asked and had no number, not even a range

as they were fleeing to Canada and turkey wont give exit visas [ you need a passport] who could disagree that the lack of travel plans by the Germans caused this

Again your logic is a delight to see.

Evidence for the UN Position on Syrian Kurds please

Something credible from the UN not a paper or something you saw from your car

Labour politicians are well aware that making such commitments do not play well with the electorate. Corbyn was repeatedly asked and had no number, not even a range

Yvette Cooper floated a figure of 10,000 yesterday. A trifling, inconsequential amount compared to Germany’s 800,000+, but a big improvement on the figure of none presently favoured by Dave and chums.

It seems that the UKIP-isation of UK politics has reached the point that even expressing the wish to help traumatised refugees, and stop small children drowning in the sea, is regarded as unsayable, as it doesn’t fit with the bigotted Little Englander narrative dictated by Nige.

Have we ever been ruled by such political pygmies? From both sides of the political debate. When they won’t stand up, and even try and make a case for common decency, and our moral obligation towards these people, for fear of tomorrows hysterical Daily Mail headlines

Pathetic!

For all the words here on STW Labour politicians are well aware that making such commitments do not play well with the electorate.

Is the UK electorate fundamentally different to the German electorate in that respect then?

Violence against refugee centres in Germany increases with two new attacks

Sometimes the views and opinions of bigots, including islamophobic zionists like you, should to be ignored.

weve certainly helped flood the region with weapons

I’m happy with that. If we didn’t sell them military equipment it wouldn’t turn the Middle East into an earthly paradise. They would buy elsewhere.

If foreign arms sale help fund our defence industry that’s fine by me. It supports British jobs and retains expertise.

… 😯

Is the UK electorate fundamentally different to the German electorate in that respect then?

Yes, they haven’t got an EU membership referendum looming 😆

Why do we always have to measure everything in terms of money rather than actual help, decency, compassion and outcome?

Because it is an exceedingly good indication that we have not been sitting on our hands doing nothing as suggested by many on here and elsewhere.

What do you want to do now?

If there was an easy answer we wouldn’t have a problem, I don’t really know. However, what I do know is that it is entirely unfair to suggest we have done nothing and I posted mainly to refute that.

I would also add while Germany’s position is, on the face of it, noble, it is also fits in with their needs. First, they have a declining population so to maintain their present system they need to increase their workforce. Second, they have a political desire to maintain Schengen on which this crisis is putting significant pressure. This is not a criticism, it just makes the action they are taking easier – I am not convinced it is the best course as there are arguments that it creates pull factors. On the other hand, I imagine life in the camps is sufficiently awful that the grass doesn’t need to be that green elsewhere to leave. As I said, really difficult and I really don’t know.

I don’t know why you think your completely irrelevant comment is funny ninfan, Germany will be facing plenty of elections in the future in which the electorate will have their say.

Still, I’m sure you’ve probably got your reason. Even though you regularly appear to laugh inanely at bizarre things.

I don’t support either of these statements

Sure you don’t.

I think a lot of people’s concerns (and rightly too) are that mixed up with the genuine refugees, there are a whole hoard of people who are tagging along simply because they fancy a better life in a more prosperous country. Some of the young men being interviewed at the Calais camp unfortunately appeared to be firmly in the latter group. But how to tell the difference, that’s the hard part?

Also what do we do with the refugees when they get to the UK? Should we house them in big tented camps or ex military facilities and keep them there until it’s safe to return? Should they be distributed among families willing to put them up but also run the risk that when it’s time for them to return home, they simply vanish into the UK’s illegal immigrant population?

Or should the UK be funding and building safe camps (with schools, medical facilities etc) protected by military peacekeepers in Syria or surrounding countries to guarantee the safety of citizens within their country of origin? Might be a good and ethical way to use our military for once?

We have to help in some way, don’t think anyone is disagreeing with that, it’s just whats the best way to help for both the benefit of the refugees but also the rest of us who actually live in the UK?

Just to add, there’s a lot of people on here (plus Facebook etc) saying and writing (probably from a comfy sofa whilst drinking a latte) how terrible this crisis is and that we should take action, but would anyone on here themselves actually be willing to open their doors to hosting a Syrian refugee family in their own house for an extended period, say 2-3 years?

well theres 250 bedrooms in buckingham palace…

I think a lot of people’s concerns (and rightly too) are that mixed up with the genuine refugees, there are a whole hoard of people who are tagging along simply because they fancy a better life in a more prosperous country. Some of the young men being interviewed at the Calais camp unfortunately appeared to be firmly in the latter group. But how to tell the difference, that’s the hard part?

So in order to stop a few or even a lot of economic migrants are you willing to let countless genuine refugees die/suffer? That’s the policy we are pursuing at the moment.

Just to add, there’s a lot of people on here (plus Facebook etc) saying and writing (probably from a comfy sofa whilst drinking a latte) how terrible this crisis is and that we should take action, but would anyone on here themselves actually be willing to open their doors to hosting a Syrian refugee family in their own house for an extended period, say 2-3 years?

Several of us on here have already said that we would. I’m looking into organisations that can help facilitate this. So there’s that attempt at justifying your own lack of compassion out the window.

And there’s what was it, 600,000 empty properties in this country (but also a ‘housing crisis’)?

We have to help in some way, don’t think anyone is disagreeing with that

I’m pretty sure they are.

I’m happy with that. If we didn’t sell them military equipment it wouldn’t turn the Middle East into an earthly paradise. They would buy elsewhere.

If foreign arms sale help fund our defence industry that’s fine by me. It supports British jobs and retains expertise.

You’re happy that British companies supplied the ingredients to make the Sarin being used against civilians in Syria. Wow. And to think people say that right-wingers lack compassion eh?

Because it is an exceedingly good indication that we have not been sitting on our hands doing nothing as suggested by many on here and elsewhere.

I think folk have suggested we have not done enough. The fact we paid some money doe snot disprove this as we may need to measure the outcome in something like say less dead babies in the sea.

Several of us on here have already said that we would. I’m looking into organisations that can help facilitate this. So there’s that attempt at justifying your own lack of compassion out the window.

Good on you, don’t think I would to be honest (apart from the fact we don’t have a big house with a spare room). Which organizations have you approached and how have you got on – is this possible?

And there’s what was it, 600,000 empty properties in this country (but also a ‘housing crisis’)?

This is all well and good and I’d be more than happy to see empty housing stock brought back into use, but what would you say to all those UK families who are currently in temporary B and B accommodation who’ve been on the housing lists for years waiting for an available social house to become free?

@agent007 – Member

“Just to add, there’s a lot of people on here (plus Facebook etc) saying and writing (probably from a comfy sofa whilst drinking a latte) how terrible this crisis is and that we should take action, but would anyone on here themselves actually be willing to open their doors to hosting a Syrian refugee family in their own house for an extended period, say 2-3 years? “

This really is completely spurious, I could equally claim that there are many folk on here who support the UK’s current policy on refugees who claim to be distressed by the death toll, but it would be wrong to help those in need as it would not end the conflict that caused many of the refugees to leave their homes in the first place. Utterly ridiculous and callous

There are many people concerned about crime
None of them are dressing up in customers and patrolling the streets at night catching criminals

People can support wars without having to join the army
I can support the NHS and think we should do more without having to go and perform operations on folk in my spare time

FWIW I would gladly house some and I am sure some other people would be willing to do this as well

No doubt you will label me as lowest of the low

Nah, you were pretty much already there from my point of view. Still, you’ve got your nice safe job in a nice safe country, why should you give a **** about anyone else?

I don’t want to go over old ground and regurgitate what has already been said, but one thought has been toiling in my mind.

Many of the images I have seen have contained people holding babies and extremely young children, why on earth are they reproducing in a place they don’t deem safe enough for themselves to live in?

This in no way is related to my view on what we should be doing as a nation regarding the overall issue.

why on earth are they reproducing in a place they don’t deem safe enough for themselves to live in?

Have a word with your mum and dad about it. In the meantime I hope this helps….

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUspLVStPbk[/video]

why on earth are they reproducing in a place they don’t deem safe enough for themselves to live in?

Lack of education of women, lack of healthcare, lack of contraception, lack of knowledge about conception [or false information]….. oh and lack of social provisions such as pensions and other Social Securities.

You know, the usual stuff.

What gofasterstripes said +
[video]https://youtu.be/Zvh3Vk-qPCM[/video]
and
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/9296135/Syria-using-rape-as-weapon-against-opposition-women-and-men.html
and why might people want to move on from “safe” countries http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/10/26/syria-women-rape_n_4166185.html

You’re happy that Britsh companies supplied the ingredients to make the Sarin being used against civilians in Syria. Wow. And to think people say that right-wingers lack compassion eh?

It’s possible to sell arms while setting limits on what is sold. Right wingers? It was Lasbour in govt when Syria bought the chemicals.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/17/sarin-deadly-history-nerve-agent-syria-un

The Conservative govt wanted to take action against Assad because of the chemical weapons threat. Labour wouldn’t support them.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/aug/30/cameron-mps-syria

It’s possible to sell arms while setting limits on what is sold. Right wingers? It was Lasbour in govt when Syria bought the chemicals.

‘Britain sold chemicals and components to Syria that ended up being used in the manufacture of the deadly nerve agent sarin, BBC Newsnight can reveal.

A leaked Foreign Office document says they were supplied in the mid-1980s.
Foreign Secretary William Hague said UK firms provided the materials and that Syria has admitted they played a role in its chemical weapons programme.’

Irrelevant whataboutery anyway, I wasn’t talking about the actions of our government, which under both parties has been disgraceful. The point is that you are perfectly comfortable with us ‘flooding the region with arms’ including chemical weapons as long as the money keeps flowing into UK coffers. Typical right-wing attitude of money over morals. The new tactic we’ve seen here of actually slagging others off for not being as amoral as them is particularly galling.

As I already pointed out we were also still suppling military equipment to the Syrian regime recently even while discussing arming the rebels/ISIS, and still selling military equipment to Iran and Russia knowing it would probably be used for all sorts of nefarious purposes including supply to the Syrian regime. But I’m sure you’re perfectly comfortable with all this, and don’t see how we possibly have any responsibility to the Syrian people.

George Osborne* has said he is “very distressed” at the images of dead children washed up on beaches. But not distressed enough to do anything about it. Its all the fault of ISIS apparently. Which we of course had nothing to do with establishing in the region.

* have you noticed he’s getting in plenty of practice at being Dave? Where is Dave, anyway?

The point is that you are perfectly comfortable with us ‘flooding the region with arms’ including chemical weapons

Did he mention chemical weapons ?

Did he mention chemical weapons ?

Well after I pointed out that we had supplied chemical weapons to the Syrian regime he said ‘If foreign arms sale help fund our defence industry that’s fine by me. It supports British jobs and retains expertise.’

If he’s really outraged by it he has a funny way of showing it.

Chemical weapons or no – anyone who supports the idea that we should be arming both sides in a unimaginably brutal civil war is frankly a despicable person (most polite way I can come up with for saying that).

I’m sorry to bring party politics into this but I do think the Tory party are really showing their true colours here. Yet another thing for Tory voters to be proud of.

The Labour leadership front-runner said Britain was being “shamed by our European neighbours” by refusing to take in more than just a few hundred Syrian refugees and said we were failing in our duty under international law and “as human beings” to offer those fleeing conflict a place of safety.

…

Britain has granted asylum to less than 300 Syrian refugees since the start of 2014 – an embarrassing number compared to Germany, where up to 800,000 refugees are expected to be registered this year alone.

Jeremy Corbyn accused David Cameron of being ‘shamed’ by his European counterparts over his refusal to accept more than just a few hundred Syrian refugees into the UK Jeremy Corbyn accused David Cameron of being ‘shamed’ by his European counterparts over his refusal to accept more than just a few hundred Syrian refugees into the UK Even smaller nations such as Norway, Sweden, Ireland and Finland have offered more places to Syrians fleeing their war-ravaged country than Britain has.

vs

“I don’t think there is an answer that can be achieved simply by taking more and more refugees.”

By more and more presumably he means more than 300.

Well after I pointed out that we had supplied chemical weapons to the Syrian regime

Not quite true though is it?

In the eighties, we supplied a variety chemicals to a number of nations, some of these chemicals had, in addition to legal and perfectly legitimate industrial applications, uses within the production of Sarin (an organophosphate compound closely related to legitimate agrochemicals) and VX. On recognition that these nations were producing CW, the government brought in restrictions, and later analysis has shown that some of those chemicals supplied before the restrictions were used in the production of nerve agents such as Sarin, along with legitimate uses.

Hardly the same as ‘supplying them with chemical weapons’ is it? It’s like saying that we sold them aviation fuel that was used in helicopters (as well as civilian airliners) or steel that was used to make guns (as well as bridges)

Edit: https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/statement-on-the-historical-role-of-uk-companies-in-supplying-dual-use-chemicals-to-syria

Anyone who genuinely thinks the tide is turning and compassion for fellow man in regards to the refugee scenario in Calais is coming to the fore should take a look at the utterly vitriolic hatred being spouted on the Facebook comments of this Justgiving page.

People are actually willing to put their names to these comments. The privileged scum that resides in this country is making me feel sick.

https://crowdfunding.justgiving.com/solidarity

Britain has granted asylum to less than 300 Syrian refugees since the start of 2014 –

Don’t let the truth get in the way o your spouting.

“Official government figures show that we had 1,688 asylum applications from Syrians in 2014, and a further 2,204 in 2015.”

http://order-order.com/#:OQ0Bha3AbSURHA

Don’t let the truth get in the way o your spouting.

OK.

Britain has granted asylum to around 3000 Syrian refugees since the start of 2014 – an embarrassing number compared to Germany, where up to 800,000 refugees are expected to be registered this year alone.

That’s all right now, yes?

Well, it seems the figure of 300 is slightly wrong, it refers to ‘resettlement’ rather than the total number of asylum applications granted.

The scheme was launched after the UN refugee agency asked countries to take in 130,000 Syrian refugees above and beyond their ordinary asylum intake.

https://fullfact.org/factcheck/immigration/uk_216_syrian_refugees-45984

So it’s either 216 vs 35,000 (UK vs Germany) or 5000 vs a potential 800,000 (uk vs Germany)

vs 1-2 million in Turkey, and 1 million in Lebanon.

Any way you look at it it’s utterly pathetic.

Isn’t there a difference between asylum applications and asylum granted ?

Here are accurate figures for UK

Germany is going to process 800,000 but I believe only plan to keep half – still a very big number.

All those refugees in Lebanon, Jordan etc we have provided £900 million in aid more than the rest of Europe put together – pathetic isn’t it.

People are actually willing to put their names to these comments. The privileged scum that resides in this country is making me feel sick.

It’s all the old white people. What a surprise. I have had much the same conversation with someone this morning. English, mind you, not Dutch.

Here are accurate figures for UK

According to the link :

Over 4,000 Syrians have been granted asylum in the UK since the start of the humanitarian crisis

The start of the humanitarian crisis was 2011, so that’s 4,000 over 4 years, or an average of about 1,000 per year.

Also from the UK Gov link :

The scheme prioritises victims of sexual violence and torture, and the elderly and disabled. The Government expects that several hundred refugees will arrive in the UK through the scheme over three years, although there is no fixed quota. The resettled refugees are given five years’ Humanitarian Protection status, with permission to work and access public funds.

So that’s “several hundred” not “several thousand” over 3 years, and it would appear that the welcome is only for 5 years.

Shameful.

All those refugees in Lebanon, Jordan etc we have provided £900 million in aid more than the rest of Europe put together – pathetic isn’t it.

What has this £900,000,000 done to alleviate the situation? I mean, where has it gone? Seems to me that that £ could fund a lot of safe places for people to live here, and integrate and rehabilitate them. When they are able to return [no denying there’s much to do there as well], they’ll be grateful and keen to work with the people who helped them.

EDIT: To put it another way, it doesn’t seem to be helping prevent the people from fleeing.