My prediction is that the tories will go full rejoin before labour.
I think this is correct.
My prediction is that the tories will go full rejoin before labour. And when they do, they’ll quite possibly get my vote.
That will be one of the most difficult decisions I'll have to make but I'd probably be joining you.
The Tories adopting a pro Single Market and/or Customs union position in opposition would be fantastic. I'm not holding my breath though. And it wouldn't get me voting for them (and nor would I need to as they wouldn't be alone in holding that position for long, even if they got there first).
If you think that the Tories will ever be proposing joining the EU... not in our lifetimes.
Well I've probably got about 30 years, that's long enough to see a lot of changes.
I think Sunak would do it just to piss Dumbojo off and who knows what Victorian term Jacob cream cracker has referred to him as.
Sunak has always wanted us outside the EU... Johnson doesn't really care... he just saw a route to power.
My prediction is that the tories will go full rejoin before labour. And when they do, they’ll quite possibly get my vote.
Wow, would rejoining really be worth handing power back to this lot ? After everything they've done over the last 13 years ? The absolute shitshow they've managed ? The corruption, the waste, the excess deaths, the austerity, the cronyism, the sleaze, the lying, the debasing of standards in public office, the othering and division ?
More of that just to rejoin the EU ? I don't think so.
My prediction is that the tories will go full rejoin before labour. And when they do, they’ll quite possibly get my vote.
I for one have now read it all. I've completed the internet! 🤣
I mean yes, I know that in theory if no-one voted tactically then the electoral landscape would be pretty different, but in practice that doesn’t happen as we all know. Honestly I think that the shitty electoral system is the single biggest issue facing the UK, even bigger than Brexit.
I agree, as long as people think they have to vote Labour purely on a 'keep the tories out' ticket then they are perpetuationg the 2 party problem, both Labour and the conservatives have nailed thier pro-brexit colours to the mast, which means that I will not vote for either.
The public mood has been moving against brexit for a fair while. I wanted Starmer to show some leadership and lead public opinion. He flunked it. I believe that would have made more gains than losses.
He has painted himself into a corner
with the press in this country the way it is, it probably only can come from the tories but it doesn't mean we have to thank them for it :/
"He has painted himself into a corner"
And then painted on the wall "I'm a ****"
pro-brexit colours
Psst... Brexit has happened... or at least is happening and we're past the point where it can be stopped.
What we're talking about now in this thread is fixing the relationships with have with everyone else in Europe (with a sider order of pointing out what a **** up we've made to better understand the work needed to fix things). One day that fixing might even result in us being back in the EU as a member, it's a dream I share. But the next election isn't about stopping Brexit, that ship has sailed. Understanding that isn't a "pro-Brexit" position... Brexit was a self defeating move for the workers of the UK... but the next steps are not to "undo Brexit", they are to stop the slide towards a mid-atlantic libertarian minimal rights maximum inequality garrison shored off the coast of Europe, and begin the long hard work of rebuilding trust and negotiating living side by side and working closely with the EU and the other countries of Europe and beyond.
I agree, as long as people think they have to vote Labour purely on a ‘keep the tories out’ ticket then they are perpetuationg the 2 party problem
So lets perpetuate a 1 party system instead, where we have a permanent Tory government
Hurrah for logic!
they are to stop the slide towards a mid-atlantic libertarian minimal rights maximum inequality garrison shored off the coast of Europe, and begin the long hard work of rebuilding trust and negotiating living side by side and working closely with the EU and the other countries of Europe and beyond.
I would like to hear how starmer is going to do this if he wants my vote.
Ruffling up his hair , not tucking his shirt in while chanting Make Brexit Work is probably as good as we are going to get.
Start with food (people care about food, and it’s become a larger and larger part of many people’s budget). Agreements on vet checks, food and farm standards… sorting that will keep everyone busy for a year or two. Nothing to be gained by taking the other route and allowing USA or India standards in the UK… well not for anyone living and based and earning solely in the UK anyway.
The Lib-Dems are for getting government positions and against not getting government positions. Apart from that you really don’t know what you’re voting for.
I don’t believe in ‘wasted’ votes but if ever there was a wasted vote it’s a vote for the Lib-dems.
Said before but despite my general support of Labour's position on many things, and a grudging acceptance that (in my opinion at least) the position taken on rejoin is a tactical one to avoid alienating the red wall / hero voters in the article above - a vote on them would be wasted in my constituency. They will never beat the tories, only the LibDem's have that opportunity under our system where I am.
So any vote that isn't for the LibDems is just increasing the likelihood that we return another tory MP. So please don't tell me my vote is being wasted when i use it in that way.
I've agonised over how far I'd extend that - as useless as they are at least their policies and record isn't abhorrent..... how abhorrent could it be before 'at least it's not the tories' is no longer enough.
So lets perpetuate a 1 party system instead, where we have a permanent Tory government
Hurrah for logic!
So let's vote for a pro brexit party who are only marginaly less usless, disorganised and and incompentent than the conservatives?
'Vote labour because we are not the tories' seems to be the only thing labour has going for it.
Yay logic!
vote with your conscience but like much in real life making perfection the enemy of good is unrealistic and you will end up with neither. in all likely-hood if enough people were taking the position of 'they're all the same' which has been the message of the tories in order to brush off any and all criticisms, while they watch porn, perpetrate sexual assaults and bully, siphon off vast sums of money and completely destroy the public services in this country then it really is more of the same you'll get. the tories need to be removed and if it means holding your nose i would urge you to do so because if you think public services will survive or expect living standards to improve in any respect for anyone but the richest in this country under another 5 years of tory rule you're very much mistaken.
the tories need to be removed and if it means holding your nose i would urge you to do so
So vote Lib dem then? glad we agree.
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vote with your conscience but like much in real life making perfection the enemy of good is unrealistic and you will end up with neither.
That works on the assumption its "good" as opposed to "not quite as shite".
You mention the "they are all the same". Whilst the tories are keen on pushing it now, especially with regards to corruption and lying, its got a longer history than that. We got it when labour decided to chase the swing voters at all costs and ignored the traditional voters because "who else do they have to vote for".
Well it turns out either they dont vote or they vote for anyone actually promising change.
Not surprising considering all the good stuff new labour offered was easily jetisoned whilst the stuff they carried over from Thatcher and co was written in stone.
So given Starmers tactic seems to be exactly the same triangulation, albeit of a slightly different group, why should we be expecting a different outcome?
If that's what's required crack on. I've an excellent labour mp who sadly is standing down. I'll vote for his successor and see how he works out.
So given Starmers tactic seems to be exactly the same triangulation, albeit of a slightly different group, why should we be expecting a different outcome?
Because… real incomes for the lower paid… NHS outcomes… etc.
I can give you a list as long as my arm about things Labour governments have done in my lifetime that I disagreed with… but every one would have still happened if they hadn’t been elected and the Tories stayed in. On top of that stuff that made me angry, they also improved public services and the lives of many people who the Tories would have left to rot in that period. Look at the last 12 years… especially those since Cameron got his majority… yes a “triangulating” Labour government might have given us some of this shit, but not most of it. Just start with fast falling real incomes for workers and waiting for NHS care… and work outwards from there.
This is in danger of becoming “that thread” though… where’s Binner’s signpost image…?
I'll let to into the UK's worst kept secret, If labour get into power they'll set out a load of unsustainable borrowing and taxation fantasies, they'll do one term tops, accomplish nothing other than a load of in-fighting between the left and the moderates of the party, (sound fammiliar?) and the tories will be back in straight after.
Round and round we go...
Election results follow the leader's popularity a lot more closely than the party's. It's fair to say there's not much between starmer and sunak in the sense that they're both pretty level headed and boring but starmer has a small lead in popularity. If anyone expects labour to romp home on the basis of the party's polling I think they're in for a shock, and worse, if people are complacent we could get the Tories again despite how unlikely that may be considered.
And yet the maligned new labour had an extensive length of time in office. Longest term of any labour government iirc. It's almost like the general pop want something vaguely left of centre but don't want the horses scaring.
Rishi Sunak's wife holds shares in childcare firm given Budget boost
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-65115204
Mr Sunak mentions Ms Murthy's venture capital company, Catamaran Ventures, in his list of ministerial interests, but does not mention Koru Kids.
The PM also did not mention Ms Murthy's links to Koru Kids when he was questioned by MPs over the policy at a parliamentary committee hearing on Tuesday.
The latest bit of sleaze, hell, it's hardly a blip on the radar these days though with the Tories. I bring it up as I just don't buy the whole "they are all the same".
As far as Brexit, I'd love Labour to campaign for rejoining BUT...what if some of the informed pundits are right and Labour goes to the polls on a rejoin footing and it loses them the election?
Holy sh*t, can you imagine if the Tories win the next election what state the UK will be in? I can't bare to even envisage it. If I stay up into the early hours on election day and it becomes clear that the Tories will win again I'll honestly be feeling sick with despair. Utterly sick.
I want Labour to hold their crap together and don't do ANYTHING that gifts the next term to the Tories.
I'll worry about Brexit and all the other crap the Tories have "gifted" the country after they are out.
I've always voted Labour but would gladly vote for the Lib Dems, Greens etc as long as it keeps the Tories out.
That's where I am at.
I’ll let to into the UK’s worst kept secret, If labour get into power they’ll set out a load of unsustainable borrowing and taxation fantasies, they’ll do one term tops, accomplish nothing other than a load of in-fighting between the left and the moderates of the party, (sound fammiliar?) and the tories will be back in straight after.
Straight out of the DM. Maybe you should look at the New Labour years and see what happened to the NHS, education and many other public services and also what happened to government debt. Then look at what happened in the 13 years since then.
Exactly the same psycology as 'unless you vote labour' you may as well vote tory. Yawn.
Yawn.
yeah - you're right. doesn't matter who you vote for, the government always get in. amiright?
yeah – you’re right. doesn’t matter who you vote for, the government always get in. amiright?
Now you're just being silly 😉
Just as silly as someone who votes for an incompetent party just because they don't like the tories... news flash, no one likes the tories other than the tories and the racist faction of the labour demographic.
Maybe we could ship anyone who voted for brexit, off to Rwanda? now that's a policy I could get behind 😉
PR, you say?
I don't see labour talking about it as they know no matter how useless they are, they'll probably 'get a go at driving the car' sooner or later, and they seem to be content with that.
The lib dems on the other hand:
“The first step is getting the Conservatives out of Government. Then, we must reform our electoral system to make everyone’s vote count equally.”
“It’s clear that First-Past-the-Post distorts democracy. It has allowed the Conservative Party to cling to power - despite a majority of the British people voting against them at every election. Leaving them free to change Prime Minister as many times as they like, without a shred of accountability. I don’t need to tell you how damaging that has been for our country and our democracy.”
“But we have a real opportunity right now. For the first time ever, a majority of the British public now supports electoral reform. People know it’s the only way to bring about the change we so desperately need.”
“Electoral reform can put an end to safe seats, once and for all. It can force MPs to listen to their constituents, make them accountable, and make everyone’s vote powerful.”
“If you give people more power, you get better outcomes. As academic studies have shown time and again, stronger democracy is good for the economy, social justice and the environment. With PR, you’re more likely to get better schools, more funding for the health service, more affordable housing, safer communities, and a cleaner, healthier natural environment. So what are we waiting for?”
“Every vote for the Liberal Democrats at the next election will be a vote for proportional representation. And ONLY a vote for the Liberal Democrats will be a vote for PR.”
Heheh... Not quite, but I'm more Davey than Starmer & Sunak inc.
And yet the maligned new labour had an extensive length of time in office.
When you look at the actual votes though by 2005 they had cratered. Its only the flaws of fptp which let it be anything other than a struggling government.
Which is a major factor in Blair walking away to protect his legacy and leave others to deal with the downsides.
When you look at brexit and ignore the simple minded claims about the brexiteers all being racist there is a direct feed in with a bunch of people being utterly disillusioned with what they got and voting for a change, any change.
So yes the tories will be destructive but problem is if we dont actually have a party offering clear alternatives we start getting their bad habits normalise and so they feel like they can go further and further.
As indeed happening with several policies which Thatcher thought were a tad extreme but after new labour got portrayed as a natural extension.
just today it's announced that 29% are happy with the nhs vs. 70% in 2010. bloody new labour. bastards.
29% are happy with the nhs
Would that be the 29% of people who didn't need to use NHS services recently?
When you look at brexit and ignore the simple minded claims about the brexiteers all being racist there is a direct feed in with a bunch of people being utterly disillusioned with what they got and voting for a change, any change.
**** it, i'm gonna vote tory just for a laugh.
I think you’ll find that for winning 3 elections and massively increasing spending on health and education Blair and Brown are rightfully condemned as the utter ****s that they are!
If you want to be revered as a true hero, bordering on god-like deity, inducing nauseating sycophancy beyond belief, then what you really need to do is lose 2 elections, 1 absolutely catastrophically, rail against the EU for years then enable Brexit (oh the irony) and… erm… I don’t know… maybe make some placards about Palestine and appear on Russia Today or something?
Ladies and gentlemen… ‘The Left’
Screams of IRAQ in 3…2…1…
I didn't think the blair/brown govennment were too diabolical, aside from the Iraq war and the selling of the UK assets at pound shop prices.
But apart from that they were ok when they didn't actually do anything.
Which is exactly why I will not put my X in a box for labour until they figure out what they stand for.
I didn’t think the blair/brown govennment were too diabolical
Very magnanimous of you.
I’m sure that the country under those 13 years of the Tory’s would have looked exactly the same as those 13 years of New Labour, maybe even better, because they’re all the same, aren’t they?
Do me a favour… give your head a wobble and maybe engage with reality 🙄
Serious quesion... who are labour? and what do they want?
Not EU/SM/CU
how do they intend to run the UK? raise the tax?
They could compound brexit with high tax, but that will scare off investors, Labour are just part of the tory machine, whether they realise it or not.
Labour are playing the same old game and expecting new results.
Labour are just part of the tory machine
You seriously believe that? Really?
I’ve got a meeting tomorrow lunchtime with the Labour candidate for our local elections in May.
He’s a thoroughly decent bloke who passionately believes in trying to make peoples lives around here better. We’re going to discuss the design of the leaflets and posters and things that we’re going to be distributing and door knocking for the next month (no doubt in the pissing rain) to try and get Labour people elected rather than Tory’s in a key marginal constituency that regularly changes hands. We believe that things will be considerably better for the people who matter if that were the outcome.
But apparently we’re all Tory’s, aren’t we? All the same? So we certainly wouldn’t be able to rely on your vote? Because Labour, Tory, no difference, right?
That’s just another vote for the Tory’s as far as I’m concerned. ur Tory MPs has a majority of 100. So all he really needed was a few people like you.
But you’ve obviously got your idealogical purity and that must be nice for you. That shits really important, after all.
That shits really important
It's very important to me, and it's exactly why I won't vote labour unless they have a pro-EU manifesto.
I admire your conviction if I don't admire your stance.
GLHF
If we’re asking who the Tory is here - and you’re the one throwing that accusation around - you’re of considerably more value to them than me. You’re enabling their continued power
But yeah… idealogical purity is very important
Outcomes of elections? … not so much
Living life as an abstract construct must be lovely. Me, I prefer reality and dealing with the world as it is, rather than how I’d personally like it to be.
I’d love to live in a socialist utopia, but right now I just want the Tory’s out, because until that happens we’re all ****ed!
I'm not accusing anyone of anything. We're all friends here hopefully...
Can we re-wind this a little bit?
I'm simply saying that I'm not going to vote labour. I'm sure as death not going to vote tory either.
This is 'the brexit' thread after all.
Yeah, we seem to have gone off on a tangent, but it’s all relative
I’m not after an argument.
I’m just pointing out that there is a price to be paid for your stance. Like I said, my new Tory MP, James Daly - a full on Boris (then Truss) supporting, libertarian uber-free market Brexiteer got in last time with a majority of 100 votes. He displaced James Frith who was a brilliant MP and a really genuine bloke who passionately believes in social justice
100 votes
So as far as I’m concerned, he was gifted his seat because of people with the same attitude as you
I’m an active Labour Party member, but more than anything I just want the Tory’s out!
Idealogical purity is an indulgence of the left which just enables the Tory’s, as 2 elections under Corbyn tested to destruction
Whatever your stance on Brexit (and I think it’s the greatest act of suicide any nation has ever made), we are where we are, everything’s relative and you vote for whoever it is who stands the most chance of getting rid of this shower of corrupt, morally bankrupt, self-serving ****s
It’s that simple.
price to be paid for your stance.
I didn't vote for this shit show.
I just want the Tory’s out.
me too, but labour in thier current manifestation will do nothing other than perpetuate the current ****ed up system. That's exactly why I won't vote labour. There's no PR in thier snake-oil blurb, and Starmer is 'clear' that he want's to integrate with the EU without integrating, so there's some sound logigical nonsence and word salad right there.
Theres no PR in thier snake-oil blurb.
Indeed. And I dearly wish there was. I think the failure of the Labour leadership to call for it is madness
But will that stop me voting Labour? No. I voted for (lifelong Brexiteer) Jeremy Corbyn twice and I view him with nothing but contempt and think his ‘leadership’ of the party as the greatest gift the Tory’s ever received. Truly all their Christmases and birthdays come at once. But what else was I supposed to do? Vote Lib Dem? Make up the 1% who vote Green? Might as well vote Tory for the outcome that would deliver.
100 votes
So everything is relative and the least worst option is what I vote for. Anything other than getting shut of these ****s is pure self-indulgence
Do labour even have any policies other than 'we're not quite as evil as the tories'?
the least worst option is what I vote for
off topic, but is this not a logical fallacy?
It's the entire reason the UK voting system is knackered?
I'm gonna vote for who I want, who I belive might do a good job, so it's the lib dems or greens for me.
Wasted vote maybe, but I can sleep easy with a clear conscience.
Well I’ll be able to tell you in more after my meeting tomorrow
I’ll keep you posted 😃
I'd be really interested in that actually, sounds interesting! please do!
I’m gonna vote for who I want, who I belive might do a good job, so it’s the lib dems or greens for me.
Wasted vote maybe, but I can sleep easy with a clear conscience
Maybe a wasted vote? Sleep easy? Even if they don’t stand a cat in hells chance of actually being elected? Eve if it just holds the door open for another Tory? You might as well have put your cross in the box then set fire to it.
Enjoy your permanent Tory government then. I’m sure your own personal voting record and idealogical purity will help you absolve yourself of any responsibility for it
I despair. I really do
I’m guessing that like me and a lot of people you can afford this indulgence. Many, many people literally won’t survive another 5 years of Tory rule, but yeah… sit back an feel that warm glow of being part of the 2% who voted Green or the 6% who voted lib dem and try not to think about how many votes a lot of Tory MPs got in by
I'm not going to tactically vote, simple as that. I'll vote for who I think is best.
At the momemnt, that will be lib dem.
The only people pleased to hear that are you and Tory Central Office
Only one of those two stand to benefit from that decision though
Clue: it’s not you
It’s like taking your shoes off and throwing them at the sky to protest against the rain
Like setting fire to your house because you don’t like the curtains
oh please don't do it Binners, dont destroy democracy just to keep the tories in, if not in the next GE, then the one after.. we are better than this.
Vote labour- get tories in the next round.
I don’t accept it is “ideological purity” choosing to vote for a party with a pro-eu stance. That’s simply one of the biggest issues facing the country, and Labour’s policy on this is self-defeating and demonstrably out of touch with popular opinion.
If they keep their current stance, they will win the next election, spend 4 years ripping themselves to shreds while they try to square the impossible circle of improving our dire situation while appeasing a rump of bitter pensioners and thick racists, and then we’ll have another decade of Tory.
Don’t go this to us. I don’t want a brief failing labour govt followed by another decade of Tory.
Britons have more confidence in EU than Westminster, poll finds
Obviously at the next GE the important thing to do is to vote tactically anti tory even if it means holding your nose. But when your choice is Tory, tory lite or tory enablers its not easy.
@binners, are you sure you're the best person to go knocking on doors?'
'Why the **** aren't you voting Labour, you stupid ****? Stop dreaming and get back down here in the shite with the rest of us! ****!!!'
Seriously, I started off just thinking I wouldn't vote for Labour. After listening to your rants I'm half thinking of voting Tory just to see if I can make your head explode.
Anyway, how's your 'real world' voting been going the last few years? Country on the right track, overall? How are things going to be after 10 years of Labour, when the country will be ready for a Tory government again?
How many years/decades/centuries are you willing to let the current system continue for? When is the right time to start doing something to fix it?
*COUGH*SCOTLAND*COUGH
*COUGH*WHY DOES EVERYONE CONTINUALLY IGNORE THAT WHENEVER I BRING IT UP?*COUGH*
SNP held 48 of 59 seats (2 subsequent defections to Alba and 2 suspensions sitting as independents).
Yeah, voting for the third, fourth or even fifth party never gets you anywhere.
Keep sitting in shit as long as you like, you'll figure it out eventually.
Yeah, voting for the third, fourth or even fifth party never gets you anywhere.
Keep sitting in shit as long as you like, you’ll figure it out eventually.
Yeah, but look at all the people who wasted their votes on UKIP.
They never won a single seat and now you don't even hear anything about them for some reason.
Yeah, but look at all the people who wasted their votes on UKIP.
Good point. People voting UKIP/BP instead of Labour did help give us Tory governments though.
____________
So, being outside the new deals that USA, EU & Japan are forming to speed up and have control over moving away from fossil fuels… what’s our government doing…? Hunt bemoaning their “green protectionism”… well wake the **** up, get in the game, Britain can’t change what any of the big players do now we’re outside the EU… so accept and adapt… we gave up all control, but we do still have political and economic choices we can make.
Good point. People voting UKIP/BP instead of Labour did help give us Tory governments though.
If you look for seats where UKIP took more votes from Labour than Tory (and sufficient numbers to switch the seat), I think it will be a very short list indeed.
But feel free to prove me wrong, with facts and stuff.
Good point. People voting UKIP/BP instead of Labour did help give us Tory governments though.
And people voting UKIP instead of Tory is the reason we are out of Europe.
Indeed. But if you’re happy to have more Tory government to make your point… carry on.
thecaptain, I’m talking about people who chose not to vote Labour, and voted UKIP/BP instead… they gave Tories seats in the last few governments. Not talking about the effect of UKIP as a whole, just what happens when people choose not to vote Labour at a general election because of their strong opinions on our relationship with the EU.
Indeed. But if you’re happy to have more Tory government to make your point… carry on.
Well, voting Labour is going to give you a Tory government with an absolute majority. It might not be this election, but there will be another Tory government within the next 10 years with carte blanche to do whatever the hell they want.
Historically, Tories spend more time in government than Labour. By voting for Labour you are voting to have more Tory Governments with absolute majorities (normally based on 35% of the popular vote).
Voting for Labour is voting for the status quo. If you vote for Labour, YOU are the problem, not the people trying to change things.
Where as permanent Tory rule will deliver us PR and prevent them getting another majority?
So let me get this right…?
You’re going to use your vote in manner which will help deliver another Tory government at a likely general election next year in order to prevent a possible Tory government within the next 10 years?
Have I got that right?
So let me get this right…?
You’re going to use your vote in manner which will help deliver another Tory government at a likely general election next year in order to prevent a possible Tory government within the next 10 years?
Have I got that right?
Well, no.
I'll be voting SNP.
But let me get this right...?
You’re going to use your vote in manner which will mean you are going to spend the majority of your remaining years living under a Tory government with an absolute majority despite only receiving 30% of the popular vote.
Have I got that right?
I'm going for plan B... get the Tories out... put pressure on Labour to implement reforms to elect the upper house on a purely list based PR, and the commons on a system of PR that keeps the link to local constituencies. I even joined the buggers to vote for those policies when the chance comes up. After decades of agreeing with all the "Labservatives" messaging of Labour and Tory governments being much the same... the last 12 years have been a hard lesson in finding out otherwise.
Where as permanent Tory rule will deliver us PR and prevent them getting another majority?
Because voting UKIP resulted in permanent Labour rule?
Well, no.
I’ll be voting SNP.
But let me get this right…?
You’re going to use your vote in manner which will mean you are going to spend the majority of your remaining years living under a Tory government with an absolute majority despite only receiving 30% of the popular vote.
Have I got that right?
+1 and me too.
Because voting UKIP resulted in permanent Labour rule?
I don’t understand that comment Bruce.
___________
I'd probably vote SNP as well by the way, if I lived in Scotland.
I'd vote for Caroline Lucas if I was in her seat.
And I'd vote LibDem in a Tory/LibDem marginal.
Back to Brexit now...?
I don’t understand that comment Bruce.
If you vote Labour you are voting to continue with the current system.
If the current system continues you are going to spend the majority of your remaining days living under a Tory absolute majority that was elected on 30% of the popular vote.
What's not to understand?