Best quality MTB frames? Any quantifiable evidence?

So I got hooked on Hambini videos recently. A lot of his content covers the manufacturing quality of road bike frames from different brands (i.e. which ones meet the required tolerance limits, which ones don’t). It got me thinking – has anyone seen any quantifiable evidence of this kind for MTB frame manufacturers? Hambini does cover a few brands that produce both road and MTB frames (i.e. Giant, Specialized, Cannondale – the latter two fare pretty badly), but there’s no info on MTB-specific manufacturers.

I haven’t seen any solid evidence but I’ve read a few things where Pivot talk about their design and manufacturing approach and based on that (and their consequently high prices) I’d expect them to be amongst the best.

And in terms of tiny manufacturers, everything I’ve seen from Swarf has shown serious commitment to quality.

Unno are quantifiable the most expensive (I think).

To be honest, i don’t think many people on here would ever know the quality checks carried out by bike manufacturers, to do that you’d have to know the quality management system being employed, not only on their product, but sub-contractors, what are the inspection regimes, tolerances, etc, etc.

I’ve been on both sides of this type of thing through life, and know that if you want a higher quality product, you need to implement a higher level of sampling, batch testing, product testing, etc, which is costly. The inspection and quality checks carried out will have associated costs as well, do you want them to be mandraulic, i.e. an inspector with calibrated equipment, how many points are checked, how many items are checked per batch, etc, etc, or do you want to have a costly inspection machine do those checks.

Quality is a misunderstood word, it isn’t the product bought by the seller, it’s the system employed to make sure that the items are fit for purpose, compliant to their design specification and have achieved the required level of performance against the requirement, it’s nothing to do with exceeding anything, or being the best.

Anyway, rant over, should’ve mentioned pre-covid i had to do 2 weeks of ISO9001!

Turner aluminium frames always impressed me simply because it was one of the few bikes where you could undo any part of the linkage and then swing that part back into place with no, or very minimal side loading.

Ibis are pretty good in that respect too.

My old aluminium intense or the plastic turner’s were shocking though.

Repeat. Apologies.

I’m on my second generation Turner Czar 1.1 @onzadog – with bearings and it’s much much better. (Although my first Czar saw an effective 12000 miles life until the linkage cracked) But had issues with tolerances for sure. All sorted in the end. I think this killed Turner.

I agree though – I was pulling my Turner Flux alloy apart yesterday and it’s all so much better.

Those were the days.

An prime example of being made abroad couldn’t be done so well – by a small company compared to local building.

Though they are doing the Titanium thing now…

Quality is a misunderstood word, it isn’t the product bought by the seller, it’s the system employed to make sure that the items are fit for purpose, compliant to their design specification and have achieved the required level of performance against the requirement, it’s nothing to do with exceeding anything, or being the best.

Why can’t a consumer have access to that quality?

I would assume that any bike made from metal rather than plastic would have fewer BB alignment problems.

So I got hooked on Hambini videos recently. A lot of his content covers the manufacturing quality of road bike frames from different brands (i.e. which ones meet the required tolerance limits, which ones don’t).

Remember that what he sees are the often ones with known problems sent in for a fix rather than a number sampled at random. I’m not saying things should get that bad but it’s not the same as going through a QC process based on % which might say that frame he’s looking at this week is a 1 in 100 or 1 in 1000 level of QC fail.

In general though I’d look for brands that sell smaller numbers and have higher prices. It’s not reliable method and some will say it’s all marketing but that’s what higher and consistent standards need – slowing down and doing things the more costly way, rejecting more and spreading that cost across the passed products.

So I got hooked on Hambini videos recently.

You poor thing. There’s probably some therapy available to erase the sweary sexist little shit from your memory.

I would assume that any bike made from metal rather than plastic would have fewer BB alignment problems.

I don’t think you can make that assumption at all. I think it will depend entirely on the specific manufacturer – a huge company like Giant can afford very expensive factory equipment and quality control practices for their high-end frames. A Vietnamese factory churning out cheap frames on contract won’t be able to afford that level of QC. A low-volume frame maker will rely on skilled craftsmanship, which may vary massively.

Been incredibly impressed with the finish inside my last two Carbon Specialized bikes. The money invested on cable routing, everything is impeccably smooth and there are little qc stickers inside the frame.

A recent foray inside an Orbea to route a dropper cable was a very different Level of finishing. Whether this actually matters I don’t know but you can see where they save money in the manufacturing process.

would someone like Shand – a small scale manufacturer making all but one entry level model in Scotland and at a high price be of high quality? They certainly look like they are made to higher standards than many

A lot of his content covers the manufacturing quality of road bike frames from different brands

No, his content shows individual bikes with tolerance issues. There used to be a website that did nothing but show pictures of broken carbon bits. I file Hambini is the same sort of category

I glanced at one of the Hamboni vids and all I saw was a know nothing plonker pretending he did know something relevant

I think Raoul Luescher latest video (and his entire channel) is more relevant, although it’s mostly about road bikes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZnPY0hMs_8

I would assume that any bike made from metal rather than plastic would have fewer BB alignment problems.

You could assume that, but any material can be used cack-handidly.
Apparently welding up metal frames is such a fearsome process that BB shells need to be post processed in order to make sure they’re square…

Why can’t a consumer have access to that quality?

You can, it just costs more and the manufacturer will have a tighter design tolerance, higher specification materials and so on.

Mrs_oab’s old USA made Cannondale F900sl was beautifully made and finished.

There’s a combination here of design and manufacture. Our Radon Swoop is as rough as a badger in finish compared to our Specialized 6fattie – but has better bearing sizing (only two sizes, big ones for main pivots) and is noticeably straighter.

I too would also err towards a small custom builder for best quality.

Apparently welding up metal frames is such a fearsome process that BB shells need to be post processed in order to make sure they’re square…

Give someone a whole day to make a frame and quality control is one thing. Make a few hundred a day and it’s something else.

The Instagram stories from BTR building a DH frame, tantrums and all, suggest they’re pretty good.

Stories I’ve heard about Chris Cocalis Of Pivot at their factory inspire confidence too.

As for Hambini, boy could find something catastrophically wrong with anything he didn’t make.

When I was younger I did a fair bit of time trialling.

http://www.timetriallingforum.co.uk/index.php?/topic/134501-hambini-engineering-and-youtube-channel/

Appeared on one of the forums I used to frequent, from memory he never actually proved he had the track history he claims to have.

Urban myth?

Texas Instruments decided to outsource its micro chip manufacturing to Japan. They stipulated failure rate of .02 (2 in 10,000). Apparently this level of quality was unheard of in the US at the time and it was an attempt to keep the manufacturing in house.

When the first shipment came back there were 10,000 units packaged up and 2 additional chips that had been snapped in half – taped on the top.

When queried, the Japanese said they couldn’t guarantee that there would be 2 failures in the 10,000 so they sent a extra 2 broken ones to make sure.

I would assume that any bike made from metal rather than plastic would have fewer BB alignment problems.

Assume away, I doubt you’re right.

I have to echo argee’s point above, most people don’t actually ‘get’ what “quality” means in a practical sense for manufacturing.

It’s more about defining both the acceptable levels of repeatability within a given dimensional tolerance, the inspection criteria, understanding the costs that go with that and balancing that all against safety consequences.

Hambini is in the first instance an utter gobeshite who relishes belittling strangers and being a weapons grade ****, and in the second instance an aero engineer.

So he comes from a world where the safety consequence of an out of spec part is towards the higher end of the safety consequences scale and hence the costs associated with 100% inspection of all dims/tolerances, lots of specialist NDT, high rework and scrapage rates, quite rightly, come some way behind planes falling out of the sky and passengers dying…

He has turned his Aero engineer eye to bicycle Bottom bracket shells, a far higher volume manufacturing challenge where the safety consequences are frankly much, much lower, shagged bearings are an inconvenience, cause reputational damage for the manufacturer but seldom injure or kill users.

Hence the willingness of bike manufacturers to inspect as much, apply tighter tolerances and to scrap/rework out of spec’ frames is offset by cost considerations (I expect most only use simple go/no go gauges and perhaps only pull say 1 in 100 frames to put on a surface table for a more detailed dimensional checks)…

For most consumers manufacturing “quality” is an intangible when set against price and other features of a bike, who wants to pay more for a product to be more likely to be right? Especially when something as apparently simple as a BB can be made a number of ways each method coming with its own tradeoffs in terms of cost/concentricity/parallelism/dimensional accuracy.

Higher QC grade bike frames are of course available, just go to a reputable custom frame fabricator and understand that you’re not just paying more for a Reynolds sticker and shiny paint you will get those ‘Rolls Royce’ levels of final inspection too, and pay substatialy more, everything else off the peg costs less but you’ll be taking your chances on ‘Vectra spec’ quality…

cookeaa seems to echo my thoughts.

would someone like Shand – a small scale manufacturer making all but one entry level model in Scotland and at a high price be of high quality? They certainly look like they are made to higher standards than many

I don’t think you can tell much from the appearance. A mass-produced Taiwanese frame is probably not going to look beautifully finished, but IME they last for years without cracking, and machining BB shells and head tubes is not rocket science. I’ve had plenty of cheapo frames over the years and they have all been functionally perfect.

Hambini is drivel.

He may well have been an aero engineer once but if he was a decent engineer… then he would know about when and where tolerances are appropriate.

I would expect carbon frames to be more accurate than metal for 2 reasons. The first is that laying up in a mould is hard to do wrong. Secondly welding put huge amounts of heat into small areas that are more likely to cause warplanes than the lower even temperatures carbon is cured at whilst still in a mould

Same as above I would say carbon frames are more likely to to spot on accurately made than metal based due to cookie cutter way they are made. The jig itself will be the same, the carbon material cut the same and presume it will be a bit of a production line of people only installing a few pieces at a time (rather than building a whole bike).

Metal relies on being correctly cut (normally by a machine but expect to need a human to debure and clean up), the tacking up of the frame the jigs need to be set up correctly (on custom frames even more of an issue) as well as pre checks and adjustments after each tack to make sure it is true after the tack has cooled and then more checks after the whole frame is welded up pre heat treatment (this is were orange bikes have such an issue with all of the extra wielding needed along the tube lengths).

Both materials (well the metal inserts on the plastic frames) would need the pivot bearing, bottom bracket, head tubes and seat tube (reaming) to finalise the correct fit. Obviously everything comes at a cost and be added on to the rrp.

As for bikes manufacturers that I would expect to be top quality I would put nicolai, Stanton and btr as some of the best from what I have seen.

I’ve had shocking alignment with commencal frames, kona frames and a Trek with an ovalised headtube making headset installation a PITA, also had slight issues with one Nukeproof frame but my other Mega’s have been spot on.
Guy Martin’s visit to Orange had an interesting alignment fix involving a lump hammer.

I would expect carbon frames to be more accurate than metal for 2 reasons. The first is that laying up in a mould is hard to do wrong. Secondly welding put huge amounts of heat into small areas that are more likely to cause warplanes than the lower even temperatures carbon is cured at whilst still in a mould

There are lots of factors at play whatever the material and/or manufacturing methods.

Here’s some more considered youtubery on the very topic of composite frame BBs from a knowledgeable source:

I much prefer his channel to Hambini’s

I was lucky enough to buy a Nicolai 12 years ago. It was and is very industrial in appearance but the build quality is superb. In all that time the only work the frame has required has been a full service of bushes, pivots and bearings three years ago. Everything always aligns, the fishscale welds are a joy to behold, the anodised finish is even now so good.

It is my only MTB I own.

The brand defines the specification. The manufacturer builds to that specification. Quality is a measure of how close to the spec the product is. The spec will determine the manufacturing methods and inspection techniques. Bike brands are being lazy and happy to palm off standard quality stuff. Another good YouTube site is Raul on Lussier technic (sure I’ve spelt that wrong). Like hambini but is an actual specialist on carbon frames and the manufacture of, unlike hambini who is an aeronautical engineer and has a very keen interest in bikes and specifically bottom brackets. Between the two you get the jist of what’s going on in the industry.

The reality is they are all as good or bad as each other as they’re all Made in the same small number of factories. Raul did a pinarello vs fake Chinese pinarello. The real one was better, but only just! And some aspects of the fake was better. Pretty shocking considering the price difference and prestige of pinarello.

If you get too hung up on this you’d never buy a bike again. Short of buying a bike and getting it scanned and inspected independently you’ll never know. Most people will be fine. The thing about tolerances are you’re just as likely to be within them than outside of them. It’s random. Shouldn’t be but in the bike industry it appears to be so. The tighter the tolerance applied the more rejects you’ll get unless you change your manufacturing process. I doubt much effort is made in these big Chinese factories on SPC irrespective of the brand, and the brands probably just blindly accept what the Chinese factories palm off to them and hide behind the warranty. The cost of a carbon frame to make is a pittance so at the price we buy at there is enough to pay for multiple warranty replacements, so cheaper for the brands to not invest too much in policing the factories.

As above I’ve seen Pivot talking about how frequently their people fly out to the factory in asia to check on quality. One would hope they’re pretty good given the price.

I had a second generation Salsa Horsethief. It seemed like they’d gone the extra mile to make the welds really neat and consistent, used higher quality pivot bearings, and the matte finish was super tough.

I’ve not really noticed many tolerance issues with frames other than I had a MK2 Cotic Solaris where the seat tube was significantly oversized. I really should have tried to warranty it. Hambini would have had a field day. Also a Whyte where the dropouts are a bit too far apart until the axle brings them together.

If only Pivot made frames with threaded BBs. Immediate turn-off for me.

Hope HB.160 & HB.130 – that’s a pretty well controlled, UK-based manufacturer, if super low volume.  Carbon fibre, and machined and bonded alloy, and looks good enough not to need paint or fillers and paint.

IIRC Pivot bikes are built by Genio in Taiwan, as are Bird and many others but I could be mistaken. Maybe Pivot have a special deluxe assembly line or maybe its just marketing..?

Same production line/facility means little. Remember the old Rover and Honda that were basically the same car?

I used to work for a 3rd tier supplier who would test each item on the Honda spec test jig. The failures were then taken to the Rover test jig where most of them would pass.

IIRC Pivot bikes are built by Genio in Taiwan, as are Bird and many others but I could be mistaken. Maybe Pivot have a special deluxe assembly line or maybe its just marketing..?

You’re correct they come off the same production line. The difference is that Pivot (probably) ship direct from the factory to their global distributors, so their QC needs to be done in Taiwan, whereas we ship from Taiwan to the UK to here and QC here.

It was fun at first when the factories would send you stuff that you’d reject and make them ship back to Taiwan, they soon learned to up their QC game in Taiwan instead of paying to air freight frames to and fro.