Bearing, bearings, bearings, Who thinks they know the score?

Bottom line is if I can do what I've done with almost no money why can the manufacturers and distributers not?

Because there is no evidence it has any benefit?

Next time you change your bearings remember these words.

Kaesae is a mentalist.

You're also missing the most important point, I don't care about money. When I say I hope every single idiot in the world doesn't buy my bearings. I really do mean it.

OK what kind of grease is it that you use?

You want proof I state again. The length of time that they last!

I think you're confusing proof with "because I say so."

What's the main reason people change their bearings? Because their old ones have developed play. What's likely to cause play in bearings? Not dirt or water, but impact abrasion of the balls and bearing surfaces. Which is better at resisting impact abrasion? Full complement bearings.

: P

OK what kind of grease is it that you use?

We know this one. It's "incredibly expensive grease", according to his eBay pages.

Or £80 for 4kg, according to his post on p6, which by his own admission serves a lot of bearings. Which is not particularly expensive for a specialist grease.

: P

http://evolution.skf.com/zino.aspx?articleID=580

And I thought THIS GREASE was expensive @ £39 for 500g tin when I bought it!

Kaesae…You keep going on about performance and caged bearings. Can you be a bit more specific, are they for High Speed, High Loads, High Temps ?!

The reason I ask, is that some high speed performance bearings actualy have a slacker tolerance to allow for centrifugal forces increasing the ball dia. at high rotational speeds. Such PERFORMANCE bearings would'nt be suitable for mtb's realy 😕

As for your steel caged bearing (again), The cage will provid no protection whatsoever from water, in fact it will help water spread around the bearing by capillary action far better than an open caged type or one with no cage 😉

What I don't understand is why someone has tagged this forum with "TJ goes into orbit" and I cannot find a single post by TJ… Que?

http://www.skf.com/files/258901.pdf

http://www.pacamor.com/about/faq.php

The important thing with any bearing is not spinney, spinney smoothness when you roll it with your finger as much as how good they are at resisting loads…

Most MTB applications are well within the speed ranges and dynamic and static load ratings shown on bearing data sheets, even the cheap ones but these figures go out the window once you introduce the sort of water and debris a mountain bike will see in normal use…

The fact is MTBs are closer to agricultural machinery than a bloody F1 car, regardless of what we like to think…

I still think that most bouncy bikes should use more oil impregnated bronze bushes at their pivots, but I’m in a very small minority there…
It seems like product semantics and marketing BS overtake the logic of using a pair of single row ball bearings in a relatively low speed application when they see irregular 30deg rotation and constant radial and axial loading and lots of crud and moisture with variable servicing…

As for packing the buggers with grease well, it has plusses and minuses, one thing people often forget is that grease will act as an insulator as well as a lubricant, so packing your hubs choc full of grease could well help cook the bearings over time and heat helps the oils in most greases separate and migrate away, assuming that the grease itself doesn’t all simply migrate away after the first ten miles, a thin coating in the right place is often as good if not better.

Then there is the question of what grease to use, I’m not a tribologist and greases are far more complicated than people realise, suffice to say a quick smear of the PTFE loaded jizz the fella in the bike shop flogged you may be great, or then again it may knacker seals and actually be designed to operate in a different temperature range and/or at higher speeds, contrary to popular belief grease is not simply grease…

At the end of the day I still think a fair few the bearings you find in an awful lot of bike products seem to be spec’ed using either guess work or as designed in obsolescence, replacements irrespective of what you spend on them will only work as well as you treat them, ride through rivers and streams and then don’t bother with regular maintenance and shock horror they will fail, then again a cheap bearing will probably last quite well if it’s mostly kept dry and well looked after…

Fivespot has raised a question I was going to ask last night but had other things to do.
Most of the bearings we use at work are C3 or C4 clearance due to high speed/high vibration or cold start issues, and these bearings are most certainly high spec but not according to our slightly ranty friend.

Whilst kaesae’s basic argument that the bearings fitted to most suspension frames don’t have enough grease in for the application is correct.
That’s because if they were filled to that level by SKF,NSK,INA etc then they would be inundated with claims as most bearings used in a full rotation application would overheat if packed full with thick grease.

And before you spout off about bearings assuming everyone on here works in IT consider that some of us have been working in engineering for decades and might just know a whole lot more about bearings than you. If you want to get really in depth what SKF factory are your bearings come from as we ran a study and found huge differences in quality we even have a league table!

So far on bikes I have actually found the seals on NSK bearings to be superior after rebuilding many friends’ frames & HTII BB’s

I am about to replace the bearings in my 2008 Commencal Meta
I know how long the ones in there have lasted so far and when I take them out I can photograph the condition etc and happy to send Kaesae the removed bearings if he wants
I already have some Enduro max bearings for the main pivot however still to source 6 bearings for the 'contact system' rocker

If Kaesae wishes to contact me (email in profile) I am quite happy to use 3 of his 'cheaper' and 3 of his 'better' quality re-packed bearings and see how they all compare to each other and to the bearings I have just removed

Think of it as a road test

I will remain impartial as whilst having read these posts and others I do think Kaesae could do with better PR skills I also think he gets an overly hard grilling on here everytime he appears
It should really be about his product and not him so hopefully in 6 months time we can put this packed/unpacked max/caged debate to bed once and for all

If I dont hear anything then Im off to the bearing supplier down the road on Friday to get some INA bearings, that he can do me for £2.05 a pop

Damn, Damn, Damn.

I've just wasted my Lunch Break reading this. Bloody hell. I was lost at page 1 by the way, but I had to keep reading.

Damn.

Im very sorry missed this one, looks like a corker

needless to say, none of you will be coming any where near my pivots, ESPECIALLY kaesae and his dodgey caged, sealess bearings

It's easy. Buy cheap, replace often, everything remains sweet. Don't pick the seals and re-grease, it'll make no real difference to lifespan unless you're meticulous at cleaning and drying anyway and risks further damage. Don't bother re-packing when they've died, it's only prolonging the innevitable. You can buy 10 packs of cheap (chinese, whatever) bearings for buttons (I bought enough for 10 changes on my 4-bar for £25) and I just pop them out and replace them every 6-12 months. Ultimately the only time you know it's dead is if it's developed a lot of play (been dead for too long anyway!) or if it seizes, and even then it makes very little difference to suspension performance. I had all of the bearings in my NRS unable to turn more than ~20 degrees, at all, packed solid – I replaced all the bearings and the back end felt no different on the trail, sure in the workshop it felt a little smoother and gave me that nice warm feeling that bike maintenance gives, but I never noticed a jot on the trail. Bearings in cranks/wheels/headset are far more important but still follow the same rule – they're cheap consumables.

Hello wait that was a bit ****

@iain1775 Much more manly and hard.

Wouldn't it be better to replace all the bearings with my performance ones. I'll tell you what I'll send some out and you can rotate them and the enduro max ones see which ones you think feel the best and then run what ever ones you like.

As for running three of one kind and three of another no point. I do like the thought of doing a 6 month test run. Can you open up your bearings and show us some photo's of the insides so we can all have a look. Then we can update this thread as it progresses.

Yes I know I still haven't answered your questions in a satisfactory way and you've all serviced hundreds of frames and replaced and analyzed thousands of mountain bike bearings, just like me.

Iain1775 are you willing to fit one of my performance bearing kits and tell us how long they last, but also if the back end feels any better in terms of it's performance?

Personally I think you may find people more willing to listen if you weren't so arrogant, the mine's better than yours argument is not enough anymore, people want facts and figures of which you have provided none!

I watched the video with the hope hub and the 2 pences and thought it genius.

But after reading your arguments I am not tempted to try your bearings, when I go to betd or enduro they back their claims up!!!

It's not enough to say I have serviced hundreds of frames and analyzed thousands of bearings without telling us how you have analyzed them, they last longer because you say so doesn't cut it.

At the end of the day I have serviced thousands of frames, and replaced hundreds of bearings, and I have the correct qualifications to back that up, and my opinion on bearings is different to yours!

Tone down the name calling and arrogance, and you may find people more willing to listen to your "reasoned" argument!

Jay

Loving it . This is almost as exciting as 'washing machine stories' that exciting soap opera that happens when the clothes are washing…..

why dont you inspect the bearings in the washing machine …….

Btw before you try and 'ive got more experiance in a specific field than you' its a good idea to check what qualifications the other guy has …. There are a few folk in this thread who have some pretty handy qualifications and experiance in the relevent field to back them up …. You have arrogance and as far as i can see that is it …..

martinxyz why not simply have them made with the right grease fill and seals in the fasctory?

its you that mentioned filling the bloody things up with grease,not me! make a bit of money out of this by quitting the pissin about filling bearings and fit the ones yer on about in the first place. or is it those high end ones that you are eventually filling up at a later stage?

They last longer because everyone in the world that uses them says so. SKF are one of the longest lasting bearings in the world and INA are one of the longest lasting also, on top of that they have superior seals. Which is a good thing when the water is out of them but a bad thing when it's in. You want proof I say yet again should I prove water is wet or the sun is hot or that a wheel is round?

There is no point answering questions on this site, as for arrogance? From my perspective I'm confident if you feel I am proud and over bearing perhaps it is your perception of me that if flawed or that you have some issues with your own confidence.

The whole point of this thread is to have a laugh there is no point in arguing with you lot and if you want to tell me I don't know about bearings fair enough.

As for not insulting people I started insulting you when one of you called me an idiot back at the start of the thread.

Very soon people on here will be testing the bearings for frames those who have them for hubs are already impressed and yes I know how long the bearings last and what the riders using them think doesn't count.

one last thing these Awsome engineering types did they create the best bearings puller in the industry. One that does pretty much every hub, frame, headset, and BB?

Must have just been me then.

Here is my argument stated yet again.

1) Performance bearings because of their close tolerances and superior construction last longer than cheapo bearings in the same application. They also perform better.

2) Where there is grease there is no water as they do not hang around together, due to not getting on.

3) You have asked me to prove what I am saying? I have refused as I see no point in proving the obvious.

So here is my response to those who would doubt what I claim and know to be true.

Since you are so interested in evidence prove me wrong!

"NSK is the World Leader in deep groove ball bearings.

We have achieved our position over a number of years by pushing Deep Groove Ball Bearings beyond that of any other manufacturer. By extending the normal boundaries of performance and functionality we are able to offer deep groove ball bearings that extend machine life and provide years of maintenance free service."
http://www.nskamericas.com/cps/rde/xchg/na_en/hs.xsl/deep-groove-ball-bearings.html

1) Performance bearings because of their close tolerances and superior construction last longer than cheapo bearings in the same application.

This is undoubtedly true. To what extent, hard to tell without back to back fair testing but I suspect a reasonable extent – lower tolerance control=poorer sealing=faster contamination.

They also perform better.

That is questionable, in the sense that performance must be noticable – until they develop too much play and start to rattle, I suspect even the most anal person won't notice the difference in friction between a good and a bad bearing, it's got to be in the order of tenths of a Nm.

2) Where there is grease there is no water as they do not hang around together, due to not getting on.

This is not completely true, even with waterproof greases I've seen hub bearings (trailer hub) that have emulsified the oil with the water and seized and/or corroded beyond repair. In order for it not to be the case you'd need either no sealing (let the water flow away instantly, but that will trap grit instantly) or perfect sealing.

3) You have asked me to prove what I am saying? I have refused as I see no point in proving the obvious.

Remember water can be ice, wheels can be buckled and the sun is only hot in comparison with earth – everything is relative and there is not necessarily an obvious or right/wrong answer to every question. I'm not disagreeing with the principles, but if you can't provide proof of performance improvements you're effectively just willy waving and no-one cares. If you could show your evidence people would actually be really genuinely interested. At the end of the day normal bearings are flawed in many ways for MTB use, but they're very cheap and easy to replace.

i hate missing out on a good argument because i dont understand what you are arguing about.

therefore im going to pee in your shoes while you carry on talking about complicated stuff, dont mind me…

…you've all serviced hundreds of frames and replaced and analyzed thousands of mountain bike bearings, just like me.

This is also important. Doing something lots of times does not make you an expert on its own. How exactly have you analyzed (sic) those bearings?

As many of the engineers on here will tell you, "feeling" the difference by rotating bearings in your hand is certainly not an objective or scientific analysis, regardless of your claims of expertise.

Do you have any measure of degree of play in the bearings, an analysis of the amount of contamination, an indication of how much the seals have been compromised, a measure of bearing surface corrosion compared to force damage (denting, grooving, brinelling), etc.? What sort of records of bearing types do you keep and how have you analysed the new bearings from each manufacturer? What degree of variability is there in the output from each manufacturer or each product line? How often do you qualitatively test a sample of each new bearing and what percentage fall below your standards? What are your standards and why have you chosen them?

A good engineering company will have quantifiable answers (that means answers with a number) to most of the above questions; unless they are tied to one manufacturer, many companies seeking the best quality components will be constantly researching the market, testing and comparing products. And they will assert expertise by describing their research methods and findings.

"I'm the best because I say I am and I know a lot" is the pathetic cry of an amateur.

: P

Without even getting into your little arguments my experience of bearings has been as follows.

Trek Liquid
Original bearing lasted 18mths
Swapped out for BETD Enduro Max bearings lasted 9mths
Swapped out for SKF bearings Lasted 9mths
Swapped out for Cheapo EBAY bearings lasted 9mths

HTII Bottom Bracket
Original bearings – 12mths
SSC BB – 12mths
SKF Bearings 12mths
Cheapo EBAY Bearings 12mths

All of the above has lead me to believe (Rather limited and very open to being wrong) that on suspension pivots the restricted movement means that you can put any old crappy bearing in their and there wont be much of an improvement in performance. It is purely down to the seals which when looking at all the bearings and how they let the water and muck in seem to be on similar levels. You can talk about tolerances as much as you like but if you cant keep them sealed you are onto a loser. None of the bearings collapsed, they just filled up with crap and rusted.

BB bearings are the same. I have got 12mths out of £2.50 ebay bearings which i have a spare BB waiting to slot in once these pack up. Cost me £10 for 4 🙂 Happy days.

What a boring topic btw. They are bearings and you can buy cheap ones or expensive ones. How about we get two identical frames and fit one with the cheap ones and one with the expensive ones. Then get kaesae to tell us which is which.

kaesae – Member
There is no point answering questions on this site, as for arrogance?

there is no point in arguing with you lot and if you want to tell me I don't know about bearings fair enough.

one last thing these Awsome engineering types did they create the best bearings puller in the industry. One that does pretty much every hub, frame, headset, and BB?

Must have just been me then.

That last statement could be seen as arrogant?

As I have said before what you are doing with the bearings is absolutely spot on for the application but the way you put things across is very confrontational, if you spoke to people like that face to face I doubt it would be long before someone battered you!

If this puller is as good as you say it is & having seen pictures of you well sorted workshop I have no doubt it is then you perhaps could make even more money marketing that to bike shops?

Even better if you can make a press to fit them properly as that's the main cause of early bearing failure in industrial applications.

Think I gave you those SKF bearings didn't I TLH

How about we get an arse and an elbow. Then get kaesae to tell us which is which.

You are correct – The sun is Hot, already proven. Water is wet, already proven and wheels are mostly round, guess what, already proven.
I don't have to take these things on faith, they have been proven!!!

You haven't proved that you're argument is correct, you're asking me to take it on faith and don't even reason out others arguments!

If I told you I had found that the best material for handlebars was spaghetti would you believe me, especially when I have no numbers to back it up?

That's quite extreme but you're asking me to believe you on your say so, to have faith in you, but you haven't put forward a reasoned argument.

You say that you are the best at what you do with no evidence – that my friend, is ignorance and arrogance!

It is fine to have courage in your convictions, and belief in your products, and that being said you should then be able to "prove it" or reason through others arguments.

Unfortunately this thread is really no longer about bearings ( that was covered in the first 2 pages).

I wish you all the luck with your new business (if that is what it is), if you want any advice on Customer Service, marketing or even expanding and franchising, feel free to get in touch…

Jay

Blimey. For bits that cost under a tenner a pop and eventually (in my experience) wear out there seems to be rather a lot of excitement.

Anyone want to come riding later instead? Meet at Will's Wheels on the A6 at 6.30 today (27th April) and then off for a cheeky 3 hrs or so round Marple?

Cheers

Paul

one last thing these Awsome engineering types did they create the best bearings puller in the industry. One that does pretty much every hub, frame, headset, and BB?

I would like to the bearing puller you designed "Ain't taking the p1ss" just interested!!

Im also genuinely interested in your bearing puller, and i expect many people are, especially in industry.

Any pictures of it? – I have made do with a socket the right size, 2 spacers and a nut and bolt….

I still cannot find any posts by TJ yet the "TJ goes into orbit" tag is still there, someone please satisfy my OCD and tell me what is going on..

I think the bottom line is this, stick to quality bearings such as NSK, SKF, FAG, RHP and you wont go far wrong.

Frankers – Member

one last thing these Awsome engineering types did they create the best bearings puller in the industry. One that does pretty much every hub, frame, headset, and BB?

I would like to the bearing puller you designed "Ain't taking the p1ss" just interested!!

Posted 2 hours ago # Report-Post
crankrider – Member
Im also genuinely interested in your bearing puller, and i expect many people are, especially in industry.

Any pictures of it? – I have made do with a socket the right size, 2 spacers and a nut and bolt….

me three

He doesn't have to prove anything, it's all obvious… 🙂

http://www.southerndownhill.com/forum/index.php?topic=224915.0