it appears that she might have played fast and loose with research in the past

Well pat me on the head and call me mr intuitive.. you can detect that tone in someone’s voice when they seem to relishing the battle a tiny bit too much

It will be interesting to see how extensive it appears that she might have played fast and loose with research in the past.

BMJ Blog response to her earlier calls for change.

I do love a good spat between researchers. 🙂

The normal pattern is for the scientist to make the over-reaching comments, confirm them, and then complain after publication that their words have been distorted.

and in 30 years you think it hasnt?

Some have. I have a BIL who coaches in NZ and if we applied that approach here it would be a major step forward from what I’ve seen recently here.

More nanny state nonsense, fortunately not from the state just academics trying to make a name for themselves. Rugby is a dangerous physical game. I would wager far more people are seriously injured travelling to/from school than playing sports.

@binner top film that, wasn’t he obsessed with Man U – I think that was the problem 😉

No. It isn’t. At 14 I was just scraping 5 foot and must have been sub 8 stone.

Our scrum half was as small and he was a fearsome tackler, but because it didn’t suit you doesn’t mean the point is invalid.

On size my good friends son is 12 and the same size as current Bath winger. One to watch I’d say, just relocating back to UK from Singapore for school.

My lad has played for the local rugby league side from U8s to U12s and is looking forward to the new season! I’m not quite sure where the number of injuries quoted in Matt’s chart comes from but I can honestly say that in 4 years of watching him and other age groups play I have only seen a very small number of injuries requiring a player to be removed from the field. If children are taught to tackle properly and be tackled properly then the risk reduces. No surveys to back this up, just first hand experience of watching youth club rugby. He also plays for his high school team now and most of the players also play club rugby. Those who don’t are given the extra coaching necessary. It’s in no-one’s interest for children to get hurt.

Last season we did carry a few injuries into the last few games. Of these only one was rugby related, a broken thumb. The others consisted of cycling injuries, a rope swing incident and the results of general larking about.

When I played at school, kick and clap, there was a similar lack of serious injury.

Rugby is a dangerous physical game and forcing kids who are ill-equipped and ill-trained to participate in it against kids who are bigger, stronger and better suited to it leads to avoidable injuries

FTFY

I would wager far more people are seriously injured travelling to/from school than playing sports.

In total, or on a per hour basis? All sports, or just rugby on a per hour basis? And again; just because something may be more dangerous on a per hour basis than rugby, WTF is wrong with seeing whether there are means to retain the beneficial aspects while reducing the harmful ones.

The Spectator has republished an article she wrote in 2014

In it she suggests there is no data. I find this difficult to believe as I know for a fact that our school doctor recorded all rugby injuries for his whole 30 year+ career at the school.

No surveys to back this up, just first hand experience of watching youth club rugby.

Anecdote ? evidence.

Grum,it’s obvious you have a problem with contact sport and no amount of first hand experience will change your mind. Where does the evidence come from? People watching sport so in my experience I have seen nothing to suggest that children playing club rugby is any more dangerous than any other sport. Perhaps it’s to do with the level of coaching they receive.

Maybe you’d prefer the X-box Olympics or the Wii Championships. That’ll keep everyone safe and sound. In fact are you sure that an MTB forum is the right place for you? Offroad cycling can be very dangerous you know…

To think people take her seriously when she writes this:

In industry, construction firms have zero tolerance for injury, so why is it acceptable that children should be paralysed or die at play?

1) No one has ever felt it is acceptable this is hyperbolic bollocks and (2) industry actually works to ALARP.

As for the quote below, it’s disgusting, and badly ill informed, clearly she’s not visited Wales or the rugby league heartlands, where rugby is played by everyone.

To make matters worse, rugby is being introduced to the poorest areas. What an irony that the children already most at risk of injury should have to face new risks.

Maybe you’d prefer the X-box Olympics or the Wii Championships. That’ll keep everyone safe and sound.

The whole sport is geared up around hurling people moving as fast as they can into the ground as hard as you can.

All this teaching schoolkids to “tackle properly and be tackled properly” stuff sounds a bit like the cyclists must wear helmets so that when cars hit them they won’t get brain injuries argument.

Leave rugby to people who want to get involved. After school clubs and suchlike. Everyone else can go and do something that doesn’t (at the very least) leave you looking like you’ve got in a fight that’s been actively encouraged by the school.

FWIW it was compulsory in our school. Winter/Spring term playing rugby, summer doing athletics, autumn doing football. 2 out of 3 giving the big kids a chance to abuse and assault the smaller kids.

TBH, i preferred the detentions and/or laps of the school Cross Country course i got for refusing.

Grum,it’s obvious you have a problem with contact sport and no amount of first hand experience will change your mind.

Haha, no not really – I quite like rugby, been to many a League game with my brother. Like Binners though our arsehole of a games teacher managed to put me off sport in general.

Everyone wanted to play football but we weren’t allowed because we were an ex-grammar school with pretensions of still being posh and football was for plebs, basically. So rugby it was. Being a big lad and not completely inept they wanted me in the school team but I refused because the games teacher was such an aggressive bell end. He confirmed I made the right choice by telling me I was a poofter for not wanting to play.

Rugby at our school was little more than a semi-organised fight, usually between the farmers and the non-farmers/townies. It was brutal. I quite enjoyed it at times but I’m not sure anyone learned anything useful out of it. Football involved more physical fitness too.

I have no evidence on this but I’m still pretty certain that if you tried to suggest a ‘new’ sport with the same level of injuries as rugby be played in schools people would tell you no **** way. You might argue that’s because we are too risk averse as a society but let’s not try and pretend it’s not dangerous. Some people think you’re nuts for doing stuff like mountain biking/climbing/skiing but wouldn’t bat an eyelid at their kid playing rugby or going horse riding – we are crap at evaluating risk as a society.

Where does the evidence come from? People watching sport so in my experience I have seen nothing to suggest that children playing club rugby is any more dangerous than any other sport.

Your experience is so subjective that it’s almost completely meaningless.

Everyone wanted to play football but we weren’t allowed because we were an ex-grammar school with pretensions of still being posh and football was for plebs, basically.

Sounds exactly the same as us. We all wanted to play footy, but couldn’t. But in our case it was because, we were reliably informed by the fat Welsh psychopath – that only ponces played footy, and we all had to be all rufty and tufty and GGGGGRRRRRRR!!!! Even if you were a scrawny little sod who was 7 stone, dripping wet through in a donkey jacket, and just wanted to stop people stamping on your head

I did like this quote about Rugby by Sacha Baren Cohen’s Nobby character:

In 1823, William Webb-Ellis was playing a game of football at school and picked up the ball – inventing the game of rugby. If I was there, I would have ripped his head off. That would teach him right for cheating, and would have stopped anyone else finding out about rugby, which is basically a game posh blokes invented so they could touch each other up in public.

😆

Observation is a perfectly relevant means of data gathering. So I’m happy to accept

People watching sport so in my experience I have seen nothing to suggest that children playing club rugby is any more dangerous than any other sport.

However, and again at the risk of labouring the point; this is not about banning tackling for kids. It’s about schools, not clubs.

Perhaps it’s to do with the level of coaching they receive.

this, and the fact that kids who opt in to playing rugby at clubs are likely to be more self-selecting and therefore the type of kids who are suited to the game and the inevitable collisions that occur.

The whole sport is geared up around hurling people moving as fast as they can into the ground as hard as you can.

Er… no. The idea of the sport is to score more points than the opposition. Bit like most other sports really.

Your experience is so subjective that it’s almost completely meaningless.

If you say so, however I can only go off what I see. I regularly watch from U11s to U15s and genuinely see very few injuries.

Observation is a perfectly relevant means of data gathering. So I’m happy to accept

If it was done in any kind of even vaguely systematic way then it might be data. Otherwise it’s just anecdotal evidence. Not completely useless but not far off.

Er… no. The idea of the sport is to score more points than the opposition. Bit like most other sports really.

And the mechanism for stopping the opposing team scoring points is? Ah, yes. Hurling them at the floor as hard as you can.

Why i said the sport is “geared up around”. Not what the rules and regulations say the sport is.

Maybe you’d prefer the X-box Olympics or the Wii Championships. That’ll keep everyone safe and sound. In fact are you sure that an MTB forum is the right place for you? Offroad cycling can be very dangerous you know…

This was pretty much a textbook straw man here by the way – skills!

Funny how football doesn’t come in for so much stick, yet it is brutal at times, I’ve seen some horrific tackles go in. U11’s football normally sees at least one kid off the pitch and in tears due to a challenge.

I coached Junior rugby from U11 to Colts (U17/18/19) at a local club, and have two boys who played rugby so I have seen this both ways.

Children who are interested in sport sufficiently to join a club should be allowed to take part in the full contact version appropriate for their age group. Rugby taught in state schools should be the non-contact tag version, since there is insufficient time to teach the contact parts of the sport.

Ideally from a coaching viewpoint, I would like to see some grouping by weight in lower age groups where contact is introduced in clubs. As a coach I saw a set of injuries, including a couple of nasty concussion injuries. Most were sprains, followed by ‘tweaks’. I only saw one broken nose (my eldest sons) and no other broken bones.

Critical at youth rugby is the ref’s. They need to ensure that the game is played safely. Management of the scrum, ruck, maul and tackle is critical. If they don’t like it – blow immediately and deal with it.

Ironically my eldest, very keen on rugby, is probably going to have to give up the sport at 24 due to a knee injury. Youngest son fell out of love with the game and gave it up. Mainly so that it would not damage his body for cricket, instead he damages his body through MTBing!

Hurling them at the floor as hard as you can.

Nothing in the rules about this and if you tackle low then this doesn’t happen.

I’ve done loads of MTB races over the years and have absolutely no systematically generated or collated data from them.

I think I can say without fear of contradiction and without a shred of statistical evidence that I’m shit at racing MTBs.

Is it possible my observations are virtually meaningless – and there’s (even an outside) chance that i’m actually really good? 😉

And the mechanism for stopping the opposing team scoring points is? Ah, yes. Hurling them at the floor as hard as you can.

Er… no. Tackling the opposing player in a controlled manner. Dangerous tackling will result in the player being penalised and removed from the field of play if it continues. You have a seriously skewed view of the game obviously based on your bad experiences at school. Children’s club rugby league is not like that at all. You will always get the occasional dickhead (parent usually) as in all walks of life but they are very much the exception. Out of interest, what are you views on martial arts and other combat sports? Should they be banned too?

Funny how football doesn’t come in for so much stick, yet it is brutal at times, I’ve seen some horrific tackles go in. U11’s football normally sees at least one kid off the pitch and in tears due to a challenge.

The data suggests is less than half as risky as rugby.

And again – it’s not about how risky other sports are; it’s about identifying there is a risk and having a sensible discussion about whether those risks are appropriate and / or can be managed differently in some situations.

@ Coyote – this isn’t about the self selecting and better controlled / coached world of club rugby, it’s about school rugby.

Out of interest, what are you views on martial arts and other combat sports? Should they be banned too?

*sigh*

Can you please point out where he said anything should be banned? Thanks.

Was it this bit?

Leave rugby to people who want to get involved. After school clubs and suchlike.

Outrageous.

Out of interest, what are you views on martial arts and other combat sports?

They are marshaled/judged with a 1:2 ratio, and i understand some have an “extra” panel as well, the entire area of play can easily be seen at close range. You also undergo compulsory training before going into a bout. Rugby is 3 or 4 referees and 30 players. At school it’s one PE teacher who quite often doesn’t give a toss. So your

Tackling the opposing player in a controlled manner.

Might happen, occasionally. But more often than not, it doesn’t.

And most peoples only involvement with Rugby will be at school. They’ll never get to the local club and be coached on how to tackle “in a controlled manner” (LOL). They’ll just have the disinterested PE teacher shouting at the bully and telling him not to stamp on the little kids.

And if you read my earlier post. I agree with rugby at clubs, where it can be controlled and trained properly. I disagree with it at schools.

Well… at school, we had a huge, insane, Welsh borderline psychotic PE teacher who in attitude was reminiscent of this…

Did we go to the same school or do all schools have an insane Welsh PE teacher? 😯

I can remember our PE teaching roaring to me in a game in a maul to ‘Rip his bloody head off!’ So what does an impressionable 14 year old do when told to do something by an authority figure? I proceeded to try and separate the opponents head from his shoulders. ‘I didn’t mean it literally!!!’ came the hasty retort.

@ Coyote – this isn’t about the self selecting and better controlled / coached world of club rugby, it’s about school rugby.

I’ve also pointed out that my son plays for his high school (Y7) and I’ve seen the same evidence anecdotal experience there too. Mind they have a pretty good system at my son’s school where the Y7 team are coached by Y10 pupils as part of their PE GCSE. The coaches stay with the Y7 team through Y8 too. The PE teacher is there purely in an advisory role and also to drive the minibus.

I do agree about touch / tag rugby maybe being a better option for PE lessons / enforced sport. Rugby 7’s would also be a good alternative.

#Edit

At school it’s one PE teacher who quite often doesn’t give a toss.

Pretty damning indictment of PE teachers there.

Did we go to the same school or do all schools have an insane Welsh PE teacher?

He soon taught me the merits and demerits of lying on the wrong side of a ruck through some injudicious use of the boot that would probably see a citing nowadays.

Doubly perplexing as it wasn’t even the staff vs sixth form game, but an interhouse competition and he was refereeing it at the time.

Hmmm, my memories of school Rugby aren’t the fondest. I remember being tackled and waking up in a nick shaped hole in the ground only to be told “don’t get up, you’ll put us all offside…”

my first and only game… 😆

Pretty damning indictment of PE teachers there.

http://theoatmeal.com/pl/senior_year/pe

Yes. We didn’t see eye to eye. Being pretty good at sport (running, cycling, swimming) and regularly in the local paper, yet completely uninterested in “proper” sports. Like rugby and football. Lead to many detentions, and regular poor report cards. Either fit in or **** off basically.
My brother “fitted in” and now carries injuries that will possibly, eventually leave him in a wheelchair, or needing extensive surgery (shoulders, knees, back, neck).

And TBH, i was at a “difficult” school. These days it’d have been in special measures (or whatever they call it now). Shortly after ofsted did their first review half the senior staff took early retirement or left the profession. These were the guys who were NQTs and new to the profession when i was at the school.

Rugby 7’s would also be a good alternative.

I don’t think so – it’s not as inclusive as normal rugby.

after watching a bit of rugby with my son who is 3, he decided to try and tackle me… badly, and with a bit of added gouging. so I taught him to do it properly and told him to go and practice hand-offs on his Mum…
learning begins at home.

When I had a serious back/neck problem that lasted several years (of kin agony) I was asked a great deal about my rugby playing and boxing 30-40 years ago! It’s not just about the knocks the kids might be taking now but rather what issues might they be building up for the future. Concern has already been flagged up re brain damage and suicides amongst former American football players.
I’m undecided but if my kids were young now I don’t imagine I’d be pushing them in the direction of sports that seemingly link with skeletal and brain damage.

The data suggests is less than half as risky as rugby.

No we know that based on an unknown data set, rugby has a greater likelihood of injury.

More nanny state nonsense, fortunately not from the state just academics trying to make a name for themselves. Rugby is a dangerous physical game.

Do you even remember the beginning of your sentences by the time you reach the end?

Rugby was pretty big at my school but fairly sure more injuries came from elsewhere, I was blinded in one eye for 3 days by a shinty ball and someone got a javelin in their head. Comedy gold.