Bad actors stoking hate again (Southport Stabbings)

I’d rather social media had rigorous state regulation and standards (from democracies) than leave it up to racist misogynist authoritarian oligarchs.

The problem with social media is attempts to regulate it from outside the USA make little difference (excepting in China, but their methods are more than a little problematic if you want an internet than can be used to question authority). The light touch approach over there in the USA puts us all at risk. UK only regulation will just result in X being accessed via tunnels and VPNs, which require no tech knowledge to use these days. Just check how EU citizens could freely use Threads if they wanted to before it was allowed in the EU, despite it not complying with their regulations (which was ironic as back then Threads content was less problematic than the stuff X was already actively pushing at you).

All the evidence you might want is out there on how FB. Youtube and Twitter algorithms use anger, fear, negativity and division to increase engagement

Yup, you could easily outlaw those algorithms or bring them under the control of a regulator. Doing nothing is not an option as quite frankly social media is destroying the social cohesion of society by promoting and amplifying conflict and division. The SM companies and right wing idiots will wail about free speech, but really all they’re doing is protecting their revenue generation model. There is plenty of precedent for breaking up or regulating businesses which are harmful to wider society and SM companies are no exception.

The light touch approach over there puts us all at risk. UK only regulation will just result in X being accessed via tunnels and VPNs

True but the vast majority of people are not going to go to the effort of installing VPN software on their computers, phones and internet routers. A few dedicated tech-savvy types will do it but no one else will bother.

Society isn’t broken imo, SM helped create some cracks it in the first place and works against it getting better. It distorts and biases everything to suit itself. Net negative imho.

All the evidence you might want is out there on how FB. Youtube and Twitter algorithms use anger, fear, negativity and division to increase engagement and how open it is to abuse by groups like Cambridge Analytica. It can be used for good by a charity or a cause but tbh I think that’s the minority, the majority effect of it is somewhere between increasing the pointless crap you’re exposed to and clearly damaging influence on our lives. What’s worse is that most of us haven’t grown up with the habit as a norm. Just wait 15-20 years and see if we think SM is still ok then.

Is this fact, or simply your perception? I don’t disagree that some actors on SM are causing damage, but I don’t believe that it’s SM itself that is causing the damage; fear, ignorance and hatred are.SM is manipulated by those wishing to spread misinformation and hate, no question. But it’s also being used for many positive reasons. I know people who actually work behind the scenes in SM, and Twitter aside, what you claim re algorithms really isn’t true. The truth is that it’s all about generating revenue, and if negative stuff is used to do that, that’s just an unfortunate unintended consequence. I think there’s a lot of fear and mistrust of things people don’t understand; other cultures, religions, customs and as we’ve seen here, social media. A lot of older folk simply don’t understand it and blame it for many of society’s ills, but that’s simply not the case. As I said; it’s like blaming the knife for the stabbing.

We are exposed to information far more via advertising on TV, billboards, public transport etc. Without realising it, many peoples’ lives are influenced far more than they understand. The products you buy in the supermarket, the clothing brands you wear,  the bikes you ride. All of it. People on here focussing on SM as the main cause of society’s problems just looks like old men shouting at clouds. ‘I don’t understand it therefore it is bad’.

All that advertising is regulated, in the market it is viewed, in a way that is not, and can not easily be, applied to Social Media companies.

As for “unfortunate unintended consequences” when seeking to maximize income or profit…. that doesn’t make it okay, or that it should be allowed to continue. Stopping it isn’t trivial though.

The problem with social media is attempts to regulate it from outside the USA make little difference

This isn’t quite the case. Go after the money (advertising and advertising data) and you’ll quickly see their influence shrink. If they can’t sell ads in your market and their data can’t be used by others selling ads in your market they’ll be incentivised to geoblock users themselves.

Yes, we have a good test case for geoblocking, with Threads. It was trivial to get around, but few did, as then it was an unknown. Pushing something heavily used like X, or even more so YouTube, behind a geofence would see methods to get around the block adopted in huge numbers, and new providers making it even more trivial to do so.

As I said; it’s like blaming the knife for the stabbing.

We still regulate the use of knives and other weapons. Guns don’t kill people on their own but they’re still outlawed for bloody good reason.

Are people “blaming social media” in and of itself? I see mostly blaming some companies and their owners, for either deliberately weak action (motivated by money) as regards content designed to stoke racism and disorder, or in the case of one company/owner for actively promoting that content for their own political ends.

All that advertising is regulated, in the market it is viewed, in a way that is not, and can not easily be, applied to Social Media companies.

As for “unfortunate unintended consequences” when seeking to maximize income or profit…. that doesn’t make it okay, or that it should be allowed to continue. Stopping it isn’t trivial though.

All commercial advertising on SM is regulated in exactly the same way. By myriad national laws. It’s the non-commercial traffic that is the problem. But how do you stop that without impinging on freedom of speech?

I’d rather social media had rigorous state regulation and standards (from democracies) than leave it up to racist misogynist authoritarian oligarchs.

The big flaw with this idea is that not all states are particularly democratic or willing to allow ‘dissent’. Many are actually run by racist misogynist authoritarian oligarchs. I’m sure the last UK government would dearly have loved to control all media and prevented any alternative voices from being heard. Even the more ‘liberal’ states in Europe aren’t exactly fair in their treatment of different political perspectives:

Europe: Right to protest must be protected during latest escalations in Israel/OPT

So, no thanks; I don’t want state interference in what I choose to view. We’re still blaming the knife for the stabbing.

All commercial advertising on SM is regulated in exactly the same way.

All SM providers have other ways of charging to get attention.

I don’t want state interference in what I choose to view.

TV is regulated. Advertising is regulated. There is no moral case for total deregulation of social media.

As I said; it’s like blaming the knife for the stabbing.

I agree with much of what you typed, but yeah – not a great analogy to bolster your point. The controlling and banning of carrying of most knives was put in for sensible reasons. A weapon is not destructive without a malevolent person behind it, but as a tool to meet an end it makes and ineffectual person much more impactful.

There is no moral case for total deregulation of social media.

In your opinion. I happen to disagree with that point of view.

In your opinion. I happen to disagree with that point of view.

Have you actually been watching the news for the past week?

Just an insight from the mind of the GBN-watching Farage lover (my boss)

– Starmer is a disgrace, as the two-tier policing is massively biased in favour of the Muslims. Police are telling the Muslims to hide their weapons so that they don’t get arrested.

– The far left counter protestors are just as violent, yet none have been arrested.

– Soon there will be civil war, and the Muslims will be out hacking white people with machetes.

– “They” are attempting to buy a private island in Scotland to establish Sharia Law.

Starmer is a disgrace, as the two-tier policing is massively biased in favour of the Muslims. Police are telling the Muslims to hide their weapons so that they don’t get arrested.

I heard this from a couple of mates in the pub last night. I’m having to work overtime in trying to put them right. It goes back to SM again, I have no doubt they’re saying this because they’ve read something on facebook or twitter which has been added to their feeds based on their browsing habits. If they didn’t see that stuff, they wouldn’t even have an opinion on it.

It’s the non-commercial traffic that is the problem. But how do you stop that without impinging on freedom of speech?

why do some people have such difficulty understanding this: It’s not “just typing something on the internet”, it’s publishing something, possibly for all time, to potentially millions of people. There needs to be accountability, responsibility, and consequences.

As if by magic, the following headline has just pinged up on my phone “Man, 28, becomes first person to be charged with stirring racial hatred online in relation to current violent disorder in UK”. How is that not a good thing??

As an aside, why do people think that “freedom of speech” i.e. I can say what I like, to who I like, is a thing in the UK, or ever has been? Too many US cop shows I guess?

Is this fact, or simply your perception?

I’m no expert so a lot of this is perception and what I’ve read or heard in docus etc. It’s my experience of SM, using it to build up something positive (first-hand exp of the positive effect of viral growth) as well as just viewing/using generally. I see what that YouTube puts into my feed and I know it comes from a profile where they relate one interest to pushing you a load of stuff that’s not positive imho. Instagram is the same and has gone down the pan under Meta ownership. I know how tiktok works (I don’t use it).

The truth is that it’s all about generating revenue, and if negative stuff is used to do that, that’s just an unfortunate unintended consequence.

Isn’t that saying the same thing I’m suggesting? And I’m not sure about ‘unintended’ but that’s just a hunch not a fact. They know what gets people’s attention and it’s convenient and easy to blame the user. Cigarettes themselves don’t kill people, it’s their addiction and their fault, right?

I don’t doubt SM has had a bit of an internal review in recent years but the fact is it knows how to push buttons and human nature is to be triggered and react. SM does that and refines that process, as you say, because it’s all about profit. So in a way I agree with you that we’re/society is the problem but I see SM as a parasite feeding off our own flaws and amplifying them, it’s really not resolving them.

it’s like blaming the knife for the stabbing.

SM gets into peoples heads and will be far more likely to be influential in a stabbing than the knife itself.

SM is not the main cause of our problems but it is a generator, a catalyst and an amplifier. All the problems we have existed before SM yet since ~2010 look at the rates of eating disorders, suicides or mental health issues particularly among teenagers since then. Other factors come into it and correlation isn’t causation yet see how often SM comes up in their stories. SM can help people finds support, I’ll have a £10 on it being the fuel on the flames first, because engagement and rabbit hole pulls are how it makes its money.
It’s not as simple as ‘blaming SM’ but SM has a lot to answer for. imo when it comes to using the power it has for the greater good it appears to have failed more often than succeeded. Convince me otherwise.. I’m not a person with fixed views.

^ And what is it they say about SM .. ‘if you don’t pay for the product, you are the product’. But I’m sure they have my best interests at heart rather than their profits.

My wife works in Brighton and has been informed from a reliable source there are likely to be riots in the centre tomorrow…..FFS

“They” are attempting to buy a private island in Scotland to establish Sharia Law.

This is sort of true.

In that some Islamic cult did launch a fundraiser to try and buy some islands.

Seems to have ground to a halt though.

Pretty irrelevant anyway isn’t it, ‘cos you can set up a dummy account, join the group and monitor what is going on anyway.

Which will still be logged to your IP address and hardware.

@funkydunc there is a massive difference between a forum and algorithm driven sites like Twitter/Meta. If you don’t understand the difference you really aren’t in a position to comment.

True but the vast majority of people are not going to go to the effort of installing VPN software on their computers, phones and internet routers. A few dedicated tech-savvy types will do it but no one else will bother.

I don’t think that’s true. My Google Pixel phone comes with a VPN pre installed.  All that is required to switch it on is to touch the icon.  No installation, effort or tech savvyness required.

I don’t think that’s true. My Google Pixel phone comes with a VPN pre installed.

That’s easy to regulate too.

Apparently Salford Precinct expecting trouble later. We’re just over the river.

This isn’t helping my ‘very english’ Indian colleague as her son and a friend are off to the Trafford Centre. She’s worried sick at the moment after a lad was targeted and beaten up in Manchester at weekend. She’s been reduced to tears this morning. What is the UK coming to.

My Google Pixel phone comes with a VPN pre installed.  All that is required to switch it on is to touch the icon.  No installation, effort or tech savvyness required.

it’s good that people with no tech savviness are using it then, they probably think Google couldn’t (or wouldn’t) provide a log of their browsing history to the authorities, if subjected to a court order 🙂

Which will still be logged to your IP address and hardware.

I thought his point was that GCHQ doesn’t need to break any encryption, they can just create an account, log onto the groups, and sit there taking notes.

Even I do the same, a local car club uses the park and ride to drift and generally sit there smashing their Fiesta ST’s rev limiter for hours every weekend. At its worst it was reported that 300 cars turned up from all over London, Southampton, Oxford, Swindon, Birmingham.

Now I can call the police before they even arrive which seems to have had the desired effect. No one drives from Birmingham to Reading to spend the evening being tailed from car park to car park by the police.

*Bodykit only 1.2

Part of the problem of SM is its real time nature. The ‘old’ adage “lies are half way around the world before truth has its shoes on” demonstrates at least that this has been an issue since the advent of mass media. Force SM to moderate properly, force them to stop promoting emotional tools and notifications, and force them to become publishers – there’s a reason that last one has been dragging its way through courts all over the world. Align them with the same legislation that every other publisher manages to comply with.

it’s good that people with no tech savviness are using it then, they probably think Google couldn’t (or wouldn’t) provide a log of their browsing history to the authorities, if subjected to a court order 🙂

But the claim was made in the context of people using a VPN to access X in another country if there were controls on it here.

Even if it was felt to be legal and proportionate to issue a court order to prevent that, could they process the millions of court orders they would need to stop ot?

does that Google VPN even allow you to send your traffic via another country?

I’ve no idea, I’ve never tried. But even if it doesn’t, the others who bombard me with their adverts and free offers on every podcast and YT video probably do. I just can’t see scrutinising the phone of everyone with a VPN or banning VPNs as being any kind of solution.

Definitely not the social media platforms at fault…

https://twitter.com/i/trending/1820799574241427552

Nothing wrong with a VPN. I use them all the time to protect my data from those who’d steal it or my identity or sell it on. I strongly advise anyone to do likewise. Yes, of course they can be used for nefarious purposes but then so can a butter knife…gonna ban them as well?…

My wife works in Brighton and has been informed from a reliable source there are likely to be riots in the centre tomorrow…..FFS

The target is Raj Ryan solicitors in Queens Street. Although I suspect that it is highly likely that it won’t happen. These targets are selected by individuals and what happens depends on who turns up, the size of the counter demonstration, and the size of the police presence.

I would imagine that the situation is stacked against the homophobic far-right in Brighton

Definitely not the social media platforms at fault…

Is grok the contents of elons **** sock?

Just go after X’s and Facebook’s revenues in the UK and they’ll clean themselves up pretty quick. They’re large companies with very expensive operations. No need to fuss about technical solutions.

Stand up to Racism have put up a list of locations to demonstrate/counter demonstrate support for various pro-immigration organisations that have supposedly been targeted by the EDL types for tomorrow.  One of the locations is in Derby. Very torn between cancelling my plans to go and show support, and carrying on with my plans and keeping the **** out the way.

Discretion likely to be the better part of valour.

I was under the impression that the Space Karen Edgelord was happy to trade profits for edginess.

One of the locations is in Derby. Very torn between cancelling my plans to go and show support, and carrying on with my plans and keeping the **** out the way.

yeah, one of them (a ‘lefty lawyer’ that deals with immigration) is less than a mile from my house.  My chronic fatigue comprehensively rules it out (i could barely walk there, let alone stand there for a few hours), but if I was healthy I’d be debating whether to go and show support or just stay away.

I thought his point was that GCHQ doesn’t need to break any encryption, they can just create an account, log onto the groups, and sit there taking notes.

Yeah, that’s what I meant. Lots of people seem to think they are hidden, as they are arranging all their meet-ups on Telegram. But anybody can join those groups, nobody checks who you are. Journalists at The Times are members of some of them and are highlighting the plans for this evening, for example.

Guess the only more difficult bit is linking the online account with a real person.

I see the Birmingham pub has thanked the representatives from the Mosque for their apologies and offer to pay for the broken windows.