Thinking of getting an Ultima Can Am.

Anyone here built a kit car?
Is it much hassle/fun?
Was it worth doing?
Anyone got an Ultima?

i used to work for a small kit car manufacturer, granted as an intern, but i did alot of work for them. We built a car called a GT3, and i designed a new chassis for them for a new car.

when i built the GT3 it wasnt too bad, literally bolting stuff together etc was quite good fun, however the body work…

If you intend to drop your built car off to be prepped/painted and pay for it, then thats ok, i had to do build a whole car, alone, in 3 weeks for a show! the bodywork was a nightmare to get the surfacing nice.

I dont have any experience of an ultima although, i know of a couple of people with them.

Thats a spanking car that is

think its got to be a hobby more than anything else, a lot of people set themselves the goal of getting it done in fiteen minutes and that's usually their biggest mistake.

It's really an overgrown airfix kit and if you keep that in mind i can't imagine that you'd have too many problems

Anyone here built a kit car? Yes
Is it much hassle/fun? Depends on if you're any good/Yes
Was it worth doing? Yes
Anyone got an Ultima? No, we have something much faster and use it in competition – it's brilliant!

Nope, but maintaining a classic car is a PITA enough! Fun though.

Just remember the finished car is still efectively as old as the donor car, so the engine etc will be coming round to needing somemajor re-building work, and will need re building regulalry if you intend to thrash it (which you should). The reason kit cars are usualy faster than their comparable standard cars is even a top end ferari will save you in a crash, £10,000 of kit car may be just as quick arround a track as £150,000 of ferrari, but will probably need even mor serviceing, harder to get hold of parts, and not save you in the event of your running out of tallent.

But yes, you should 😛

this isnotaspoon – Ultima is all new bits rather than a rehash of old cars.

I have been looking at the engines they recommend. Anything up to 800hp out of a small block Chevy! $31,000 for the friking engine alone!

I have long admired the Ultima, it is a classic in its own right, I built a Marlin Berlinetta between 1989 and 1993, and it cost about £10,000, and that was well finished, but still Cortina based with a cheap engine and running gear. It's still going though (with another owner). For an Ultima, you can't get away with a cheap job – you are talking £15k for the kit, and another £15k for the finishing, but at least you don't need to paint it as it is gel coloured in your choice. If you think you can finish it for less than £25-35k, talk to some existing owners – you may have to change your mind. Good luck with it if you do build one, but you are aware that you can't get a bike rack for it!

Ultima's are supposed to be relatively easy to build as kit cars come, because it's such a well developed kit now, that said, it's probably best to allow plenty of time (more than you'd expect) to build it, and to let the factory fit and finish the body for you…

Oh, and as far as the engine goes… If you're going to fit a factory recommended Chevy engine, go for a modern Fuel injected LS engine (LS2, LS3 or the monster LS7). They are a modern, reliable, efficient (for their size) engine, designed to do a decent number of miles, and have reasonable service intervals. If you go for an old school SBC (Small Block Chevy) motor, being as it's essentially just a highly tuned 1960's engine, and will be running a big four barrel carb, it is likely to be a MUCH more costly (in the long run, not the purchase price granted) experience!

Personally, I'd be ringing round any Mercedes Breakers after a 6.2 litre AMG V8 out of the current SL63 and CLK63. It's an awesome engine! That said it would probably triple the build time of the car, as it's not a factory recommended engine and hence would require everything fabricating to fit, and the Mercedes ECU being hacked no doubt!

Oh, and it'll be worth a visit to the Pistonheads Ultima Forum with any questions you have, there's a wealth of knowledge on there!

crazy car 😀

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/6-3-AMG-ENGINE-V8-C63-CLS-63-SL63-S63_W0QQitemZ260497016712QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item3ca6d50788

😉

Anyone here built a kit car?

Most of one.

Is it much hassle/fun?

Yes, tons / some.

Was it worth doing?

I'll let you know if it gets finished.

Anyone got an Ultima?

Nope. Cobra.

Had a couple of kits, similar in principle but worlds apart in execution.

1st was a Mk2 1960s Mini Marcos, originally based on a 1959 Mini but updated / hacked about by about 13 owners before me. Nightmare to get parts for, stupidly fast but woefully unsafe. The battery was in the rear next to the mini van fuel tank.

2nd was a Quantum Mk2 saloon bought new and built fom a single XR2 donor and refurb parts. A joy to build and own. Very practical, quick, economical and cheap to insure.

The hassle / fun ratio depends very much on the quality of kit, number of donor vehicles or bespoke parts required for completion. Accuracy of pre-drilled holes, shutlines, chassis welding etc are key to an easy build. Gelcoat makes life alot easier too.

Worth doing? Depends! An Ultima will need very close attention to detail when setting up the chassis if it is going to do justice to the expected power to weight ratio. The more engine / gearbox / transaxle and chassis adjustment options a kit supplier gives you, the more opportunity you have to mismatch the lot and sell a part built project at huge financial loss.

If you haven't built a kit car before, I'd suggest you start on something less expensive / adjustable. I made all my mistakes on the £750 Mini Marcos, so my £7500 Quantum was spared beginners bodges. A Westfield or similar is nearly as thrilling as an Ultima for a fraction of the cost.

I'm i the process of car number 3, probably about halfway there, although none are that comparable to an Ultima.

Number 1: Locost built from 'the book', made pretty much everything myself including chassis and suspension. Built in a large single garage with basic hand tools and welder, took 9 months. Powered (in the loosest sense of the word) by a 1256cc chevette engine, pretty rough around the edges, MOT'd the month before SVA became legislation. Remodelled the front end in Lancs Uni underpass due to suspension failure, no damage to me.

Number 2: Live axle Fisher Fury, 1400cc K-series power, full screen but no doors. Built in the same garage as the locost (thanks dad!) but took a lot less time, mainly due to it being a reasonably comprehensive kit. Went through SVA (relatively painless but £££) and had a lot of good use out of it, quite usable as a long weekend touring type toy. Met its demise when a lamp-post entered sideways just behind my right shoulder. Escaped with a bit of internal mashing, a couple of days of hospital food and a missed alps trip 😯

Number 3: IRS Fury, lots of parts carried over from number 2. Built in a series of leaky rented lock-ups with cordless tools and a 12V battery for lights as I've moved locations since starting the build. Has doors which are taking time, and is going to be a more developed car than either of the predecessors. Should have it on the road for next summer, it will need to go through the new IVA test for which the manual is free to download (yay!) but the test is silly money (boooo).

The important bits from each build probably boil down to having the best facilities you can (lighting, power, space, decent tools), the budget to achieve a car you're happy with, and above all enjoying the build process. If you don't get a kick out of designing, problem solving and making stuff with your own hands its probably better to buy a part-finished or completed kit.

I've helped out a few people building them – mainly Seven derivatives.

Always double the manufacturer's build time estimates and it usually seem to be a doubling of the minimum build cost if you want something nice (little things – like good instruments/switchgear all add up). If you're tight on space it can add a ridiculous amount of time if you're having to rearrange the place to work on a different bit.

Equally I think you need to have a goal date in mind as some people just dabble as when they can be bothered and it sits there for years. It's a big time commitment so to get it done in reasonable time means it pretty much taking every evening and all weekend over many months. The first bits go together fairly quickly, it gets dull there's a list a mile long of all the fiddly little bits to do. And an Ultima has way more "stuff" (bodywork and the like) than most kits.

Some people really enjoy the build, and become serial kit-builders. Some people enjoy driving the things rather than spannering so the instant gratification of a secondhand one (or the slightly-delayed gratification of a factory build) works better. Probably best to figure out which you are before dropping tens of thousands on a kit!

ultima has gone south 🙁

Wifie was fine with about 12K for the kit until she spotted the 30K for the engine.

Still, at least she has her head around the concept of a third car. She doesn't drive so struggles to understand why I need three cars. Weird.

I built this

and this

You could probably class them as kit cars….

Are they DC04? I have a DC02 which is totally original but massive fun.

ide like a lomax 🙂

something pretty, low slung and sporty, and wish a proper simple engine.

wouldnt matter if it wasnt a rocket ship, as long as it was fun 🙂

WorldClassAccident – Member

Are they DC04? I have a DC02 which is totally original but massive fun.

They're both DC5's

yeah – I meant 5s. Error induced by Innis & Gunn.

Nice cars but not as nimble as the DC2 in their basic spec. I guess yours would whoop mine though

Heres a couple more we've built but a bit quicker than the Integra

Anyone here built a kit car?
Is it much hassle/fun?
Was it worth doing?

Yep, finished my stuart taylor/aries r1 powered 'locost' in spring of this year.

Yep, its a fair bit of hassle but i really enjoyed the build, i'd planned it would take me around a year to complete but it took two, getting the garage as clean/tidy and well lit before you start will help no end.

Bolting the main bits together is the easy part, its all the finishing and wiring that took a fair bit of time for me, then realising you've run out of that bolt/rivet/connector/sikaflex/whatever and having to get/order some more.

Cost wise, it can be endless, especially if your building an ultima 😉
Its suprising how much all the small parts you req will add up to, and don't forget to add in the cost of the tools you'll require, if you don't already own them of course. IVA replaced SVA earlier this year, now costs around £500 i think (got mine through sva just before it changed).

Was it worth it, YES! 😈

Check out locost builders for plenty of info/help linky

Some pics of mine;

Pics from sva day;

😀

Jackal How do you make it go backwards?

Jackal How do you make it go backwards?

That's only a problem on bike engined cars without an aftermarket reverse addition. I'd think most (or at least many) locost type cars are ford engined, normal gearbox types.

Jackal How do you make it go backwards?

Push it..! 😀

Its now a requirement for IVA (and RGB race series) to have a reverse tho, but as mine passed sva, there was no legal requirement.
Quaife do an inline reverse box but its very expensive and not that reliable, i think MNR are making one too.
Most people make/bodge their own up using a ring gear/sprocket inline in the prop with a starter motor and some kind of system/linkage to engage and disengage it.

😀

That's only a problem on bike engined cars without an aftermarket reverse addition. I'd think most (or at least many) locost type cars are ford engined, normal gearbox types.

The original 'locost' as per ron champions book, was based around the mk1/mk2 escort so hence would use that engine and transmission combo.

But, there has been many many variations on this now and the number of locosts without mk1 or 2 escort engine and running gear far outweigh those with it, a fair amount of those being bike engined cars too.

😀

You reckon? That's interesting, whenever I've looked for whole cars for sale (out of general interest) they've been pinto engined ones. Maybe thats because all the good ones are not sold 😀

I've been involved in one or two builds – just helping out really

One of the things that made a massive difference [to me anyway] was having plenty of workshop space, doing it with a yard of space all round is crap [IMO, of course 🙂 ]

You reckon? That's interesting, whenever I've looked for whole cars for sale (out of general interest) they've been pinto engined ones.

Oh yeh don't get me wrong there's still loads of x-flow/pinto engined live axle 'book' locosts, but now there's easily as many with IRS rear ends and zetec, duratec, xe, k series, bike engines etc etc…

Mines a bike engine with a live axle btw!

😀

Well to save you parking and wife problems I am willing to take your black car out of your hand
no no don't thank me it's all out of good will 😉

I've also got a Stuart taylor kitcar, mines got a Fireblade engine in it. I've had it for about 5 years and it's still mad to drive, Red line about 12000 rpm and gear changes so quick you don't have time to think. Just a bit noisy, after an hour your ears are bleeding. No reverse, but never needed one (apart from parking)
I know someone building an Ultima and from the look of the bits it's very impressive.

😀 I think if i were going to go kit I'd want to design it from the ground up, but thats getting harder and harder to do with the legislation (possibly rightly so). Next I'd have a bike engined IRS. At the end of the day I think I'd rather drop my current cars 4wd runnign gear into a chassis like the Atom, though some say the 4wd detracts from the point.

Do you bike engined car owners use the clutch for shifting or just takeoff.

Used to have a Westfield, had it built by a race engineer as I am too lazy,I used to do track days in it and modified the Zetec 1800 to over 220 bhp sadly it ended up in flames on my drive. Insurance would only send it back to Westfield for rebuild – what a s@it job they did!!

Do you bike engined car owners use the clutch for shifting or just takeoff

Use it for setting off and down shifts only, just as you would on a bike.

"Jackal How do you make it go backwards? "

an electric motor.

My Westfield Megabusa Turbo is for sale if you want a really really fast car 🙂

300BHP and 500KG makes for a lot of fun 🙂

Bazzer

Yep
2 westfields bike and car engined, one Striker and 2 Caterhams, the Caterhams by far the slickest quickest and fittest still run one as a track day car

Bazzer – It was your car that got me into this trouble. The only way I can get the third car past the wife is by telling her that building it is my new hobby.

I wonder if I could pretend to rent another garage somewhere, spend every weekend riding and then three months later turn up in your car saying I built it. Hmmm.