Any liquidators/administrators in the house?

Not all directors of bust businesses are irresponsible. Some are. Some aren’t. Some are bust because of being shafted by other companies and are victims themselves. Some are serial offenders.

Most businesses have standard rates / margins they want to work on. They drop if no-one pays them and IPs are no different. Don’t want to pay £420, then find the guys who will do it for less. They do exist, but you’re not going to find people doing such work for pennies.

b r – Member
its the Directors who appoint the Receivers, not saying there is ever anything going on, but

Are you absolutely sure about that?

A receiver is an individual appointed by a court or chargeholder to take possession of property for its protection or realisation or appointed under the provisions of a statute. The majority of receivers the official receiver will come into contact with are appointed by a chargeholder to realise his/her security…

http://www.insolvencydirect.bis.gov.uk/freedomofinformation/technical/TechnicalManual/Ch1-12/Chapter9/part3/part_3.htm

Rehung a fire door…eventually they paid up…6 months latter they went bust as a chain, started getting huge envelopes…from the liquidators…they owed me nothing,but i was still on their database as a creditor.

A company that has no idea who it does and doesn’t owe money to and doesn’t pay its bills on time isn’t going to last long…oh. Must be that pesky liquidator!

They drop if no-one pays them and IPs are no different. Don’t want to pay £420, then find the guys who will do it for less. They do exist, but you’re not going to find people doing such work for pennies.

There may be some distance between those charge and pennies
Yes but one would assume its a closed shop and rather hard to enter the market.
If they all agree that is the industry standard rates and legally you have to do this then they have folk somewhat over a barrel.
If you can find me any company with no money , going out of bussines with real creditors also facing difficulties who want to pay that and think it is fair I will be surprised.
Your posts have fallen short of defending the costs and have merely explained them

Its indefensible even if it is legal.
I would be surprised if anyone though these rates were reasonable

One worker[manager], one admin would be over 8 k per week for 35 hours work each

Still not sure how the creditors control this seeing the liquidator is in place [ generally] before they are and they only need to meet 3 months into the process to agree fees – bit late then surely.

I’m guessing that the 3 month check is more to do with what the liquidators are billing, rather than the actual tariff – I would assume that (barring really big corporate bankruptcies) most liquidators will have more than one case on the go at a time.

Its indefensible even if it is legal.
I would be surprised if anyone though these rates were reasonable

Seem reasonable to me – if they weren’t reasonable, nobody would hire them.

Your posts have fallen short of defending the costs and have merely explained them

Explanations may help understand where the numbers come from and then anyone can make up their own mind. I left that work a while ago so I’ve no axe to grind either way.

If you look at hourly rates, you need to remember employment cost on top of salary, deduct holidays & sickness from productivity, add training costs and time, the office running costs including non chargeable staff etc and the inevitable element of non chargeable time. It is expensive.

The margin applied to that for partner earnings is where it is questionable. £400+/hr for a partner is Big 4 territory and Google will tell you what those Partners earn. Given how hard it is to qualify as an IP, those that do will want to be rewarded.

Whether they need to be so highly qualified, and hence expensive, is an entirely separate question.

Your right companies with no money but a legal need to do this would not be hiring 😕
They have no choice but to do this and if they all charge this they have no choice but to pay it

Do you think a company charging £65 – 90 for admin would stay in business – surely they all would as its a “reasonable” hourly rate

one would assume its a closed shop and rather hard to enter the market…If they all agree that is the industry standard rates and legally you have to do this then they have folk somewhat over a barrel.

“closed shop” and “hard to enter the market” don’t mean the same thing.

Agreeing “industry standard rates” would be illegal.

The people who appoint receivers are generally large finance houses and the like – they are not naive helpless Mrs Migginses who are unfamiliar with the market and can’t negotiate. Major creditors have sharp elbows and know how to look after their interests – and their vigilance in banging on IPs to make sure rates are low benefits minor creditors.

Do you think a company charging £65 – 90 for admin would stay in business

Well, it depends on the industry and how complex the admin is… Mechanics’ charge out rate is average £80/hour now, and the major buyers are sharp-toothed insurance companies. (Mechanics also don’t bear personal liability if they mess up their job…) http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-2036854/Garage-labour-rates-soar-7-5–expensive-region-car-repairs.html

It seems to me that everyone charges what they can no matter the job, be they lawyers, accountants, mechanics, plumbers. And all of those (and others) are likely to provide services that someone at some point is going to be left with no choice but to pay for.

(Mechanics also don’t bear personal liability if they mess up their job…)

Accountants and Lawyers have generally got that sorted with the move to LLPs these days.

Are you absolutely sure about that?

Yep, although a creditor can also apply

Re closed shop/charges you know what I mean without the pin dance.

Yes kona those charges would indeed indicate everything you say is happening they are a complete bargain and thank god they haggle hard lest they be excessive. I include the insurance companies in that – I know if i went through the yellow pages I could not get a mechanic for that sort of money or less.

Oldblole I dont disagree i just think the rates are excessive because they can get way with. Some seem to think they are reasonable I disagree i doubt the debate has anywhere to go

There’s no need to deflect conversation by alternately being sarcastic and saying it’s pointless. You could always just keep your own counsel.

Are you absolutely sure about that?
Yep, although a creditor can also apply

Are you sure you are not confusing “receiver” with “administrator” or “liquidator”?

Why would the board of a company need to appoint a receiver over the company’s property which is the subject of a security interest? It’s their property already.

Accountants and Lawyers have generally got that sorted with the move to LLPs these days.

Irrelevant, surely – administrators and liquidators are appointed personally, and bear personal liability for misdeeds.

They have no choice but to do this and if they all charge this they have no choice but to pay it

Actually (I’m not up to speed on the details south of the border, and there are differences) but there is not necessarily a need to appoint a liquidator or administrator; in principle the directors can stop trading and wind up the company by themselves – its just a load of work, quite complicated (if you’ve never done it before), probably won’t pay you, and everyone you deal with assumes you are on the fiddle – so the potential that some disgruntled creditor tries to sue you personally goes up.

My own experience was of a business which might have been better served [for the creditors, shareholders and employees] with Administration (a more expensive process) but the liquidator wasn’t interested in that as he didn’t think he could cover his fees! It liquidated, he sold the assets some peripheral stuff got much less than it should have at auction, and less than one offer that was made pre-auction that was turned down! The core of the business was sold for just enough to cover his fees, and when one of the creditors complained at a creditors meeting that it had been undervalued he tried to renegotiate a signed deal… …the buyer generously offered a different structure (in part based on future sales) which would have been better for the creditors but the Liquidator declined as it wouldn’t cover his fees.

He was invited to be the Liquidator by the directors (based on personal recommendation), appointed (temporarily) by the courts, and then confirmed by the creditors meeting which agreed his fees. The directors responded within 24 hours of a major contract falling through which meant the company went from being viable, but short of cash, to out of business overnight.

Listen, you’re clearly not a lawyer, as every law student and trainee knows this shit. Stop being so chippy, accept that you’re wrong

Firstly, soz for late appearance, been at hospital with my Mrs all day. Secondly, you are right I’m not, however I do have a 1st class honours degree in business administration, so honestly, I promise you I’m not struggling with the concepts.

OK, getting back to the point I’m making, which is how come there is never, (and I am talking about in my experience here, therefore clearly anecdotal, but based on experience as a senior manager/director for 26 years in a number of companies big and small), a distribution to the unsecured creditors. Surely it is impossible for that to be the case if everyone is actually playing the game legitimately?

I’ve given you a classic example above,(A case in Manchester), which I’m very familar with. It is simply not possible to run up debts of £224,000 with an asset base of £1557, and not be aware that something is awry. I raised this with the both the Department of Trade, and the liquidator at the time, who, remember are working in my best interests here, and frankly I might as well have told them I’d just had anal sex with their first born for all the good it did.

So the point is how come?

Just to throw another one in for you, my brother in law was a director of a company, which traded whilst insolvent amongst other things. All of the unlawful activity occured while he was in hospital having treatment for a heart attack. It was accepted that all of the actions that resulting in this illegal outcome were carried out by the halfwit son of the main shareholder, or MD as he was otherwise known, and while B-O-L was incapacitated to boot. The outcome? B-O-L was fined £10,000 and barred from being a director for 10 years because it was deemed to be his responsibility regardless. (Halfwit went down for it)

[Ourmaninthenorth, you can look that up on Companies House webcheck if you like, so run this bit about these circumstances past me again will you?]

Its indefensible even if it is legal.
I would be surprised if anyone though these rates were reasonable

ohh ooh ooh can we do solicitors rates next please?

Those rates look pretty cheap to me.