“In retrospect, Sandy Hook marked the end of the US gun control debate. Once America decided killing children was bearable, it was over.”

I believe gun homicides for 2018 in the US are currently running at “normal” levels, so they probably won’t see any need for change.

The Onion runs the same headline every time there’s a mass shooting…

https://www.theonion.com/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this-r-1823016659

Perhaps we could save our time and just have an all-purpose thread on here to be re-surfaced when required?

Their country. Their choice as to what constitutes acceptable collateral damage for their 2nd Amendment rights. One day they may wake up to the scale of the carnage on their streets and in their schools, I suppose.

Eight-in-10 Americans told the pollsters they favor bans on assault weapons, high-capacity ammunition magazines and “bump stocks,” an accessory used by the Las Vegas shooter that allows a semi-automatic rifle to fire like an automatic weapon.

Eight-in-10 likewise said they favor a federal database to track all gun sales. On each of these questions, majorities of Democrats, independents and Republicans all were in favor of the restrictions to some degree.

But the share who were in favor, as well as the intensity of their agreement, varied by party — sometimes widely. For example, 91 percent of Democrats, along with 76 percent of independents and 70 percent of Republicans, said they are for banning assault-style weapons.

Which is all well and good but this;

Likewise, 72 percent of Republicans agreed with the statement, “The benefits of gun ownership outweigh the risks.” Democrats were the near opposite of that, with 60 percent disagreeing.

shows that US conservatives (ie states where most gun sales occur and with the laxest restrictions) still believe that gun ownership is a ‘good thing’.

It’s a complex situation and at the heart of their identity for a lot of Americans.

https://www.npr.org/2017/10/13/557433452/poll-majorities-of-both-parties-favor-increased-gun-restrictions

In retrospect, Sandy Hook marked the end of the US gun control debate. Once America decided killing children was bearable, it was over.”

Very much this.

Anyway not even sure why we are discussing guns as its clearly a mental health, social exclusion, domestic terrorism, violent video game, Marilyn Manson issue

If a country that didn’t have cars looked at the UK and saw that 1700 people are killed a year their reaction would be why doesn’t the UK ban cars

Entry for the worst logical argument of the year award duly filed.

If the 1700 people killed each year were being murdered by people driving cars you would have a point.  They however are not, and you don’t.

In addition:

…have better car controls etc,

Erm, car controls?!

Controls such as having to have a (driving) license to operate one which consists of hazard awareness, medical suitability, practical and theory tests with a system where minor offences are totted up and the license can be revoked at any time?  How about guns having to be registered with a central agency, pay duty each year, have to be insured, held on an easily accessed record with unique serial number, and have to be safety checked each year once they are 3 years old (MOT).

What more car controls would you like?

Terrible, terrible argument.  Award winning terrible.

Also cars are useful for other things apart from killing… Guns that’s kind of the point of them.

Controls such as having to have a (driving) license to operate one which consists of hazard awareness, medical suitability, practical and theory tests with a system where minor offences are totted up and the license can be revoked at any time?

Whilst I think that far more could and should be done, it’s utterly ridiculous to compare road deaths with gun deaths. Firstly – as you say – the primary purpose of motorized transport is not to kill people, and secondly, there is a vast number of controls aimed at reducing the problem.

As for America, if the murder of schoolchildren won’t make it change course, then nothing will.

I agree, please read what I was replying to and quoting.

Gave up caring a long time ago. These things don’t even register with me. American’s don’t care enough so why should we. I’d say I feel sorry for the victims, survivors and relatives, but when the parents of a kid killed by a gun, defends guns in the aftermath, it’s hard to muster sympathy at that level.

The point I was making is to an outsider from a country where cars don’t exist then the obvious thing to stop car deaths would be to ban them.

You are the outsiders who don’t understand how ingrained guns are in the US culture.

The response to the analogy shows how good the analogy is.

I agree, please read what I was replying to and quoting.

I know! That’s why I said “as you say”…

The point I was making is to an outsider from a country where cars don’t exist then the obvious thing to stop car deaths would be to ban them.

A point so obvious it didn’t need saying. Why do you think it’s relevant to a discussion on gun controls?

You are the outsiders who don’t understand how ingrained guns are in the US culture.

We must be reading different threads. The one I’m reading features many posts saying that it won’t change because guns are too ingrained.

Also cars are useful for other things apart from killing… Guns that’s kind of the point of them

From the American perspective though you are a good guy and your gun is there to protect your family against a bad guy so killing him is a good thing.

From the American perspective though you are a good guy and your gun is there to protect your family against a bad guy so killing him is a good thing.

So all the dead children were really just bad, then. So that’s a relief.

Hey Ransos, I think things have been lost in the thread slightly.  Let’s just say I agree, guns are not cars, I was just going with the weird analogy to make a point.

Also, guns are bad!

I’m decreasingly sympathetic to all of these child/school shootings in the states; this morning my radio alarm went off with the sounds of the actual gunfire from the latest atrocity and I just turned it off.

We all know the story – the very next thing that the idiotically paranoid Yanks will do is rush out en masse and buy yet more guns.

Until The U.S. of A. starts to implement some effective laws that actually compromise their rights to kill each other I’m afraid I can’t be arsed to even give these atrocities my attention, let alone emotionally engage with the tragedy and victims.

Good article in the Guardian.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/feb/15/dont-look-to-trump-for-leadership-after-the-florida-school-shooting

In retrospect, Sandy Hook marked the end of the US gun control debate. Once America decided killing children was bearable, it was over.”

This is true but even the US must have a tipping point, it is morbidly fascinating to consider what this might be:

Columbine, not enough

Sandy Hook, not enough

Las Vegas, not enough

Florida, not enough.

How many victims does it take from a single shooting.  100, 500, 1000?  Perhaps some puppies as well?  There must be a a turning point, even for America.

Worth also adding that, although this isn’t a Trump problem of the making, immediately following the killings in New York Trump declared it to be a a terrorist attack, called for immigration restrictions, for the suspect to be sent to Guantanamo Bay and then called for the death sentence.

Killed by a white America in a school and what do you get? Thoughts and prayers.

Havnt read the whole thread so apologies if this has been mentioned before.

Why does this seem to be predominantly a US only problem. I’m pretty sure guns are readily available in other countries without the proliferation of school shootings. So is there more to it than just the fact that anyone can get there hands on a gun?

“How many victims does it take from a single shooting. 100, 500, 1000?”

Well, we already know it’s not 100 or 500. Las Vegas showed us that.

The right wingers in the states have some seriously odd values.

An unborn child has a right to life that must be protected at all costs, but once outside the womb it appears that kids are fair game for any nut with a semi automatic rifle.

I’ve said it before on these threads but I also think that every gun or rifle sold should, by law, be painted barbie pink with glitter and be called something like Unicorn Cuddle Sparkle Stick.

This would align with their right to bear arms but would make them less attractive to your murdering type.  Even if it didn’t work, it would be amusing to see the NRA trying to argue otherwise.

 I’m pretty sure guns are readily available in other countries without the proliferation of school shootings. So is there more to it than just the fact that anyone can get there hands on a gun?

US has by far the highest gun ownership per capita. Approaching double the next best, according to wiki.

It doesn’t have the highest gun fatality rate per capita. More work is needed to get it up there with places like Honduras and El Salvador.

My pure guess for the number of mass shootings is simply the easy availability of military-style semi automatic weaponry, coupled with the relatively high disposable income needed to afford them.

 I’m pretty sure guns are readily available in other countries without the proliferation of school shootings. So is there more to it than just the fact that anyone can get there hands on a gun?

Do you think there is something about infamy going on. This messed up kid manages to kill 17, does that lay down a target (excuse the pun) for the next messed up kid?  In other places kids rebel by becoming goth, the more rebellious you are, the more goth you are.  Is there now a thing in the states where they idolise the kids who shoot up a school then aspire to be like them or out do them?

I don’t know if this is the case, just thinking out loud.

I don’t think it’s a numbers thing, simply that each event reinforces the idea for a tiny subset of Americans that rocking up somewhere and spraying bullets around indiscriminately is a valid way of settling grudges and scores.

Get sacked? Shoot your workplace up.

Get arrested? Shoot some cops

Lose loads of cash gambling? Just open your Vegas hotel window and start shooting.

Get expelled?

BoardinBob Subscriber
Gave up caring a long time ago. These things don’t even register with me. American’s don’t care enough so why should we.

I’m not convinced this is really the case. The statistics that wwaswas quoted suggests that the average American does care and does want something done, but vested ideological, commercial and political interests are preventing the democratic process from working in the average American’s interests here.

It’s a long time since I watched Bowling for Columbine,but (if I remember correctly )the final conclusion by Moore was that fear and paranoia (fueled by the US media) was the main reason behind gun sales and easy access to military spec weapons.

Liked this tweet –

One shoe bomber tried to blow up a plane and now we take off our shoes.
1520 mass shootings since Sandy Hook and Congress has done NOTHING.

the sandy hook Senator

Florida Governor Rick Scott said the shooting was “pure evil”, but also refused to be drawn into a discussion about gun control.<span style=”font-size: 0.8rem;”>”There’s a time to continue to have these conversations about how through law enforcement… we make sure people are safe,” he said</span>

Brilliant, there it is, the first this is not the time comment

FFS, if the Americans don’t care enough to get it changed, they’ve got to live with the consequences. I could get angry, but really, what’s the point?

I’d be interested to see how many politicians are funded or receive “donations” by the NRA in some way or another. It’s the only thing that makes sense that they can sit back and see children murdered in the one place they should be safe and still do absolutely nothing about it.

oh wait:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/10/04/opinion/thoughts-prayers-nra-funding-senators.html

Looking a little deeper, it would appear the more money you get from the NRA, the more Thoughts and Prayers you’re willing to part with

https://www.romper.com/p/how-much-did-the-nra-donate-to-trump-hes-been-loyal-to-the-organization-since-his-candidacy-2748576

Boba, you beat me to the NY Times article; it doesn’t make clear how much funding McCain received outside of his presidential run in 2008.

Just to add, Trump received $21million from the NRA during his campaign.

Money talks.

Donald Trump has been labelled a “f*****g piece of s**t” on Twitter by a user who is believed to be a student caught up in the Florida school shooting.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/florida-shooting-latest-updates-trump-twitter-condolence-tweet-piece-shit-parkland-school-student-a8211896.html

“wwaswas

Eight-in-10 Americans told the pollsters they favor bans on assault weapons, high-capacity ammunition magazines and “bump stocks,” an accessory used by the Las Vegas shooter that allows a semi-automatic rifle to fire like an automatic weapon.

Eight-in-10 likewise said they favor a federal database to track all gun sales. On each of these questions, majorities of Democrats, independents and Republicans all were in favor of the restrictions to some degree.

But the share who were in favor, as well as the intensity of their agreement, varied by party — sometimes widely. For example, 91 percent of Democrats, along with 76 percent of independents and 70 percent of Republicans, said they are for banning assault-style weapons.”

What’s really interesting is if you prefix this with “are you in favour of stricter gun controls”, then ask a series of questions about specific measures. The majority of people who say they oppose gun control, are in favour of more than one additional type of gun control, you get a different answer from general questions than from specifics. NO TO ALL GUN CONTROL but yes to not allowing criminals or the mentally ill or terrorists to have them.

(this is pretty common in surveys and statistics; in the UK a pretty good proportion of people who when asked say they are christian, will then say that they don’t believe in God or christ)

And this does inform the debate leaders a lot- recent successes in this area all focused on really narrow types of controls. I don’t agree with the no-fly-list thing but it got a lot of sympathy. Controls for criminals, controls on really specific types of hardware like bump stocks. Whether this can be the thin end of a wedge isn’t clear but it gets stuff done where otherwise nothing would happen.

But as soon as you say “gun control” everyone assumes that you’re coming for their gun. And literally everyone with a gun thinks they’re a responsible gun owner.

$21million dollars!!

**** hell i had no idea the NRA had pockets that deep!

On a Facebook group with a lot of Americans

Apparently the blame lays with big pharma. All the meds these kids are on is the real problem

The solution apparently is arming the teachers

MEGALOLZER