Agreed, I’d have been asking the question straight out rather than telling them you’re thinking of doing it yourself. The theoretical scenario you’ve presented them with will almost certainly just get you some generic advice along the lines that you need landowner permission, must be allowed to posses an air rifle and comply with the conditions of GL42.

I’d have a chat with your local Police rural wildlife officer (usually easily found on FB) as those shooting the pigeons are almost certainly out of order (I bet they haven’t got permission from landowner or have a clue what GL42 is). You might find they pop in for an chat and a bit of education.

Why not just tell them your concerns rather than mess them about and go around the houses?

Well, if a police armed response unit turn up this afternoon and start carting the committee members off in cuffs, it’s going to be pretty obvious who the informant was! Would definitely hamper your chances of a good result at the next village show. 😁

Yeah, that essentially.
At this stage, days after one of the most disagreeable blokes on the committee has blocked me and seen cause to delete a post on their page, I don’t really want to be that obvious just yet.
I don’t think I’m messing them (The police) around. I’m still after the same advice, but without the added element of dobbing them in….yet.

I did wonder if Facebook might be able to get the post back as he’s basically admitting to doing it for many years on there. Possibly why he deleted it.

If I go too far, they might start paying more attention to the lack of work I do on my plot and find reasons to kick me out!
I only really have an allotment because I built a couple of fancy sheds on them and don’t want to lose them. I do grow stuff, but not all that enthusiastically if I’m honest 😉

I honestly think that with short staffed coppers just being clear about what’s going on is best. He’ll either say “that sounds fine” or “christ someone’s going to lose an eye” and go and sort it.

I think “man loses allotment after pointing out heinous fire arms offence” an unlikely outcome. Besides, would you want to be there while Rambo is letting rip?

TBH I never realised allotments were so exciting 🙂

@dudeofdoom

You don’t know man, you weren’t there!

I kind of feel like the lady I emailed didn’t really read what I was saying. She had previously brushed me off saying that it wasn’t a licensing issue concerning a firearm and I should have a look at the general law relating to air guns. I didn’t say anything about them shooting outside of the allotment boundary/premises, but anyway, she said this…

Thank you for the further clarification. I have enquired with some of our officers here, and whilst it is not a firearm licencing issue (as not a certifiable weapon) it does sound like an offence is being committed – not least having an air gun in public without due cause and shooting it outside of their premises. Pigeons are classed as vermin so that part would not be an offence on their own grounds.

They have suggested you report it – with as much information as possible through the online incident portal on the ************* Police website or by calling 101.

I hope this is of some help to you

Apparently, the bloke who has been shooting them for many years, has actually been shooting them off a telegraph wire on the boundary with terraced houses behind that! 🫣
The story I’ve heard is that he shot one and the bloodied body fell into a garden behind where a grandfather and granddaughter had the body land in front of them.
That’s what I was told so it may well be a Chinese whispers type situation there, who knows…

Allotments. A hotbed of drama!
Next thing we’ll get the blokes from the committee doing a drive by on me, pushing one another in a wheelbarrow 😅

If they have touched a badger set the wildlife team will be very interested.

Rspca and rspb might be worth a chat too as well.

Failing that dress up as a 7ft pigeon and kick the shit out of him. Whist yelling not so brave now.

Pigeons are categorically not classed as vermin!! They can only be shot if the conditions for general license are met.

Thank you for the further clarification. I have enquired with some of our officers here, and whilst it is not a firearm licencing issue (as not a certifiable weapon) it does sound like an offence is being committed – not least having an air gun in public without due cause and shooting it outside of their premises. Pigeons are classed as vermin so that part would not be an offence on their own grounds.

Her reply is a bit wide of the mark on a number of issues.
a) “Having an air gun in public without due cause” – An allotment is not a public place. Although we don’t have the name of a landowner on the thread, it isn’t a place to which the public has access. The wording ‘due cause’ has been bolloxed with the actual wording of the Firearms Act, ‘good reason’
b)”shooting it outside of their premises” – her reply tends to suggest he should only be shooting it on his own private property. As long as he has the permission of the landowner he can shoot elsewhere.
c) “Pigeons are classed as vermin so that part would not be an offence on their own grounds.” No they aren’t. They are protected by the Wildlife and Countryside Act, but can be shot under some pretty specific conditions laid down in the General Licence which others have mentioned.

In order for him to be complying to the letter of the law he must have authority to shoot from the landowner or their agent. That may or may not already be in place, so a bit of research is required to discover who owns the land the allotments are on, and of course whether that authority to shoot has been previously requested or granted.

In order for him to shoot pigeons on the allotment he must show that it is for the reasons laid out in the General Licence, and under GL42 protecting fruit and crops from woodpigeons is a permitted reason.
However, he must have first tried or at least considered other alternative methods to protect the fruit and crops: Condition 1. Alternative lawful methods
For action taken under this licence for carrion crow, feral pigeon, jackdaw, magpie, rook or wood pigeon (species native to the United Kingdom), you must:

a) before using this licence, be satisfied that you, or the person authorising you to act under this licence, have made reasonable endeavours to achieve the purpose in question using alternative, lawful methods not covered by this licence

b) continue to use reasonable endeavours, or be satisfied that reasonable endeavours continue to be made, to achieve the purpose in question using alternative, lawful methods not covered by this licence

You’re not required to use alternative, lawful methods under condition 1(a) and 1(b) where the use of such methods would be impractical, without effect or disproportionate in the circumstances.

Apparently, the bloke who has been shooting them for many years, has actually been shooting them off a telegraph wire on the boundary with terraced houses behind that! 🫣
The story I’ve heard is that he shot one and the bloodied body fell into a garden behind where a grandfather and granddaughter had the body land in front of them.

It may just be hearsay, and without evidence from witnesses it’s not going anywhere, but his is of course of massive concern, and makes all the above moot.

To summarise: He may be acting lawfully. If the last bit is true he’s an idiot, and a dangerous inconsiderate one at that.

Pigeons are categorically not classed as vermin!! They can only be shot if the conditions for general license are met.

Correct.  It’s a sad fact that many civilian staff in police firearms licensing departments have a fairly basic grasp of firearms and related (e.g. wildlife) law.  This is exacerbated as firearms law has grown piecemeal over many decades and it’s not covered by one piece of legislation but dozens.  The law society were tasked with reviewing this mess a few years ago but ISTR it faltered because of funding and the sheer complexity of sorting it out – low political priority.  So the fact office staff in police firearms licensing departments don’t know all the intricacies is understandable.

Thanks all. That’s very helpful.
Yes I guess that the lady replying to my enquiries may be more of a first contact within the department and not have a good grasp of the actual law.

Talked to some others and I think the first port of call is for us to be writing to the trustees and see if permission has been in place on the land 👍

Is this going to turn out to be about the Israel/Palestine conflict again?

I thought you could only be kicked off an allotment for not using it or misusing it, not because some self-important arsehole on the Facebook group committee doesn’t like you?

Yes I guess that the lady replying to my enquiries may be more of a first contact within the department and not have a good grasp of the actual law.

I’d say it’s likely. I wouldn’t expect your average Bobby to be a walking legal encyclopedia even, if they were then they’d be earning far more money as a lawyer. But if they’re giving out legal advice from a point of (perceived) authority then they should really be asking someone who does know before doing so.

Oops! My post above includes…

<span id=”page443R_mcid69″ class=”markedContent”><span dir=”ltr” role=”presentation”>It</span> <span dir=”ltr” role=”presentation”>is</span> <span dir=”ltr” role=”presentation”>an</span> <span dir=”ltr”

etc

Sorry about that, what I actually posted was some text from the Home Office Guide that I linked to, but the forum software seems to have other ideas!

I’d say it’s likely. I wouldn’t expect your average Bobby to be a walking legal encyclopedia even, if they were then they’d be earning far more money as a lawyer. But if they’re giving out legal advice from a point of (perceived) authority then they should really be asking someone who does know before doing so.

Very true. Somehow I always expect any policehuman to know every single thing about any law relating to anything 😅
To be fair she has actually asked some relevant officers by the sounds of it. 👍

Her reply is a bit wide of the mark on a number of issues.
a) “Having an air gun in public without due cause” – An allotment is not a public place

The issue of whether something qualifiies as a public space for legisation purposes will depend on the individual facts. As a general rule, locked gates, fencing and no trespassing signs would generally indicate (but not prove) that it isn’t a public space. If however people who are not allotment holders are generally tolerated and allowe access to the site it coud quite easily be a public space. Or not – again the specific facts will determine this.

Well exactly.. Tescos car park is technically private land but it’s treated as public for legal and insurance reasons as not everyone there is a customer with private access.

Same as an allotment… To you have to swipe a key card to get in and get your grand daughter to sign the visitors book and give her a lanyard with a visitor card on it?

No.

Yeah the main gate is wide open all day so fairly easy for anyone to wander in.

So it’s not “public land” but it is “publicly accessible land”?

As far as Firearms Act goes, it will almost certainly be a public place. Definition is:

“Public place” is defined to include “any highway and any other
premises or place to which at the material time the public have or are permitted to have
access, whether on payment or otherwise.”

It can be quite concievable that it is legal. Or not> The 50 feet thing is a red herring as there has to be an effect on others to stop this and not liking it doesn’t count. A click of a pellet doesn’t count either.
You’ll have to investigate your specific contracts to see if you have any rights as a land user to stop this. All of the above points in other posts are generally correct but cannot cover all circumstances thus a deinitive answer won’t be found here.
Two things that ought to be considered are that pigeons are a bloody pest and need controlling and any sensible allotment holder would love to see the back of them and the general licence allows for this once other methods have been tried.
Secondly, why decry an old tradition? We live in a world of idiots who are happy to stop anything that they don’t like. Don’t add to it if it is happening legally. No different to so called “cheeky” MTBing.
The lead issue is also rather an over statement. You’ll be able to fish a pellet out of your cabbage when you eat it if not before. Big things pellets. Even a .177 is 4.5mm across. I would just tread gently .

The lead issue is also rather an over statement. You’ll be able to fish a pellet out of your cabbage when you eat it if not before. Big things pellets. Even a .177 is 4.5mm across. I would just tread gently .

And if I tread gently in a plot behind the shooter and get a .22 in my eye instead of my cabbage?

Secondly, why decry an old tradition?

Sorry but something being a tradition is a terrible reason for blindly supporting it.

And if I tread gently in a plot behind the shooter and get a .22 in my eye instead of my cabbage?

That’s quite a leap. Unless they have done anything to make you think this might actually happen, which would have been reportable in any case, you’re just making stuff up. Don’t be that guy. No responsible shooter would shoot without consideration of what is or might be in front of them.

Sorry but something being a tradition is a terrible reason for blindly supporting it.

Nobody is asking you to blindly support anything. FWIW I think the shooters have opened themselves up to confrontation with their attitudes but that doesn’t change the fact they may well be in the right. Back to the cheeky trails analogy.

Any developments @kayak23 ?

Plot twist: he’s currently in A&E with pellet wounds.