I got into a bit of a debate yesterday on the Facebook page of the allotments I belong to (this is actually about allotments, not Palestine 😉) after another member had said that someone had been shooting pigeons on the site with an air rifle.

I said that I wasn’t sure myself, but that I thought that it probably wasn’t ok to do that on a busy site, albeit non-public, with people coming and going all hours etc. I said that I wasn’t fully up on the law surrounding it (I used to shoot airgun target and shotgun clays back in the day, but never animals) but was happy to be shown anything that demonstrated that it was ok.

I know that shooting pigeons is legal but it was my understanding that you had to have permission from the land owner and/or any tenant of the land or neighboring land. As plot holders, we are all effectively tenants right?

Quite a few of the committee and members are the type who have no issue with ‘pest control’ and clearly enjoy the ‘sport’ but then the majority of the members generally try to use non-lethal methods of protecting produce, netting and such.

The bloke on the committee basically told me to leave the site and the Facebook group if I didn’t like it, and that ‘it’s an allotment’ and ‘they’d been shooting pigeons there for 113 years and nobody has been shot’.
Before I could retort something along the lines of that there was quite a few things we did 113 years ago that were maybe not so encouraged these days, he then blocked me and deleted the post relating to all of this so I cannot see anything he puts there and do not have all of the stuff he spouted about what they do.
I saw via my partners account that he then posted something saying that the Facebook page was for sharing growing tips and news, not arguing! 😂
I couldn’t see that myself now that I’ve been banished for daring to ask a question.

We also suspect the committee and friends of tampering with badger setts on the site among other things, so are keeping a close eye on known ones.

To be honest,I wasn’t really wanting to get involved as they’re a horrible bunch of men who now run the site (and they are all men) and life’s too short (especially if you’re a pigeon) but nevertheless I’m interested in whether or not his claim that it’s perfectly legal is true or not.

Who do you ask? Stw of course….

They sound like a bunch of a-holes who’ve just improved your life by kicking you out of the group…

Is the land Council owned?

Is the land Council owned?

I think it’s actually owned by the church.

Some one will be along shortly with the correct answer but discharging air rifles near or onto public highways is a no no.

You could go big and sow the allotments with landmines to ‘deal with the pigeons’ and just explain that you were simply embracing their philosophy.

It’s not automatically legal to shoot pigeons.  You certainly couldn’t do it in your garden just because you don’t like them! I used to shoot a lot of woodpigeons with a shotgun over decoys on farmland to protect crops.  They are a serious agricultural pest, but the law is quite strict.  You have to understand and abide by the terms of the Natural England ‘general licence’ (or Scottish/Welsh/NI eqiv). It is not necessary to apply for an individual licence, but you most definitely need to demonstrate understanding of it and compliance if challenged.

You can legally do it to protect crops, protect public health etc. but only if non lethal means are not viable. There are also cruelty offences under the wildlife and countryside act if it is bodged or not done skillfully and humanely.  You most definitely have to have the landowners permission to shoot! Not having it means you are guilty of armed trespass (an aggravated trespass offence) and probably other firearms offences, too,

They sound like a right bunch of bellends.  Your police wildlife protection officer might be interested!

Some one will be along shortly with the correct answer but discharging air rifles near or onto public highways is a no no.

Not automatically

“In England & Wales it is an offence without lawful authority or reasonable excuse to
discharge any firearm within fifty feet of the centre of a highway which consists of
or comprises a carriageway, and in consequence a user of the carriageway is
injured, interrupted or endangered. [Section 161(2) of the Highways Act 1980 as
amended]. It is important to remember that the discharge of a firearm is not
prohibited in itself. It must also be proved that there was an injury, or that
someone’s passage was interrupted or interfered with e.g. they have been forced to
make a detour”

It’s the land owners gift to allow shooting. If you don’t have permission it’s armed trespass.

If they have permission then they are fine to do as they like so long as they don’t cause alarm or interruption to journey on the public highway. Roughly translated that means anyone travelling on a right of way either around or through the land should not feel threatened or disrupt their journey. You can shoot right up to a highway so long as the above conditions are met. Pellets leaving the boundary are absolutely a firearms offence.

Some one will be along shortly with the correct answer but discharging air rifles near or onto public highways is a no no.

I guess they’d argue that it’s not being done near the road that runs out front or near the river with a park on the other side, but who knows what they do.
Being a private allotment with members, they would argue that it’s not a public place.

It’s the land owners gift to allow shooting. If you don’t have permission it’s armed trespass.

I thought that it’s not just down to the landowner but also any tenant of the land needs to give permission too.

I think it’s just the landowner. Also when shorting needs to be over a certain distance from the nearest road. Can’t remember of the top of my head but have the relevant info at home so can update later.

See someone will be along with the correct ans.
So if I’m on said allotment on a walkway to my plot and someone took a pot shot in my general direction?
I wonder if they shoot other birds sparrows and starlings can eat pea flowers ECT.

Small scale allotments are better protected by nets I would have assumed.

I thought that it’s not just down to the landowner but also any tenant of the land needs to give permission too.

This is complicated.  A landlord may or may not retain the ‘shooting rights’ and even lease these to someone other than the tenant, but this typically only covers ‘game’.  A tenant, whether or not he holds the shooting rights still has the right to shoot pest species.  So a tenant farmer who doesn’t  hold the sporting rights can’t shoot pheasants, deer erc. but can shoot rabbits and pigeons (for example) if it’s an arable farm (there is actually a legal obligation to do so in the case of rabbits) I think the tenant can allow others to do this on his behalf, but for bird species – crows, pigeon etc the general licence rules still apply.

I would think the tennants rights would come in here.

What happens if grandpa joe brings his 7yo grand daughter to his allotment to pick strawberies and she ends up with a pellet in they eye and permenant brain damage? Tough shit I assume, according to the ‘facebook group’?

If that’s the case I would honestly call 99 and report it as a firearms offence if you ever see people shooting air guns there.

I’m surprised no-one has commented about possible tampering with badger setts.
What does the landowner have to say about any of this? Can you confirm who the landowner is – you suggested it’s possibly church owned.

I’m surprised no-one has commented about possible tampering with badger setts.

I missed that.  If there is evidence, not just hearsay then inform the police wildlife crime officer.  They should take that very seriously if there is evidence.

Just checked:
– You need permission of landowner and occupier (so it could be argued you need permission of everyone in the allotment)
– can’t discharge (no sniggering) within 50 feet of the centre of the nearest public highway(even if firing away from highway)
– all pellets must remain within boundary of land you have permission to shoot on
(theoretically you can shoot on an allotment if neighbouring plot holders agree but if old Joe next plot along doesn’t like it you can’t have them landing on his plot)
-pellets are a lead alloy so may not be the sort of material you want mixing in with your prize petunias or plums.
-If the person with the rifle has been a naughty boy and has convictions they’re not allowed air rifles (subject to some exemptions in the Firearms Act)
-(most obvious one) it’s an offence to have a loaded firearm in a public place without reasonable excuse. Whether offing a few intimidating dirty pigeons is who knows?
If the allotment was shut to members to do so then could be ok (as long as culling in this manner was allowed), but if other people are there at the same time then that’s a big no-no.

In England
1) an airgun is not a firearm in law.
2) In your own garden it is perfectly legal to shoot an airgun, but the pellets must not leave your land. Even ricochets are techincally a breach.
3) backstop is key, I’ve done loads of pigeon slaughtering and we set up a wood and foam backstop with a bait – ie a large pile of grain, in front, the pigeons are so dumb the just move into the gap created by the one you just shot. You can’t shoot stock doves, collared doves or turtle doves. Must be pigeon.

How does this apply to allotments?? I guess you could argue your allotment is your own land. EG if shooting from a high point down into the ground with a backstop on your own bit of the allotment, I’d probably do and be happy with safety as long as there is no risk of someone walking across your allotment whilst doing it.. That might be hard to achieve unless you have fences.

So shooting guns willy nilly is illegal then.

Who’d have thought!

1) an airgun is not a firearm in law.

Wrong.

The Firearms Act 1968 defines a firearm as ‘a lethal barrelled weapon, as defined under section 57(1B)’.

Section 57(1B) defines a “lethal barrelled weapon” as a “barrelled weapon of any description from which a shot, bullet or other missile, with kinetic energy of more than one joule as measured at the muzzle of the weapon, can be discharged”.

An air rifle with a muzzle energy below 12 ft/lbs (around 16 Joules) is very clearly a firearm under the definition of the 1968 firearms act, it is just a type of firearm which is exempt for the need for a certificate under the act.

Above 12 ft/lbs it requires a firearms certificate to possess.

2) In your own garden it is perfectly legal to shoot an airgun,

Not if you’re firing within 50 feet of the centre of the nearest public highway

Not if you’re firing within 50 feet of the centre of the nearest public highway

But only if

‘in consequence a user of the carriageway is injured, interrupted or endangered’.

Otherwise it’s not illegal (Highways Act 1980).

You certainly couldn’t do it in your garden just because you don’t like them!

Not so sure on that. Used to work with someone who had their own gun club.
On your land “ok’ish” but you have to ensure not pellet leaves your property/ boundary.
Basically the only way to legally/ safely do it is to sniper out the upstairs window down onto the lawn.

Next door uses his air rifle on the garden shooting into his garage where he has targets set up. (Wish could do similar with my recurve bow.

** Just notist the comments above about public highway.

***

The Firearms Act 1968 defines a firearm as ‘a lethal barrelled weapon, as defined under section 57(1B)’.

Again conversation with same person at work strangely a crossbow comes under firearms laws, something about arrow velocity.

Blokeuptheroad has this sown up, almost like this comes up on a weekly basis on AGF and BBS 🤣

Not so sure on that.

I am, 100%.  You can’t shoot pigeons in your garden or anywhere else, just because you don’t like them. Quite apart from any possible firearms offences, that would be an offence under the wildlife and countryside act. Wild birds are protected, legally by default with a few exemptions covered by general licenses. You can shoot Wood pigeons legally under certain circumstances e.g. crop protection if you can demonstrate non lethal means are not appropriate and you abide by the terms and conditions of the general licence GL42 issued by Natural England.  Most people taking pot shots at woodies on their brassicas in gardens and allotments are entirely ignorant of the GL requirements. They may well get away with it for yonks, but they are on dodgy legal ground if reported.  Technically, they could do it legally if they understood the GL but most don’t even know it exists. Ignorance of the law is no defence etc.

Linky

(Similar legislation applies in Scotland, Wales and NI).

3) backstop is key, I’ve done loads of pigeon slaughtering and we set up a wood and foam backstop with a bait – ie a large pile of grain, in front, the pigeons are so dumb the just move into the gap created by the one you just shot.

This is the thing. Is there even any actual point in shooting pigeons on an allotment?
It’s not like they’re clever enough to vacate the area and never come back, telling all their pigeon mates. Shooting a few wouldn’t make a dent anyway.

It says to me that people do it for the sport rather than for any BS claims about benefiting the immediate environment.
Some people just seem to enjoy killing stuff but use the vermin/pest angle to promote their sport.

It says to me that people do it for the sport rather than for any BS claims about benefiting the immediate environment.

Sadly there is a segment of folk that think that way. I hope they’re at least eating them and not just binning them.

This is the thing. Is there even any actual point in shooting pigeons on an allotment?
It’s not like they’re clever enough to vacate the area and never come back, telling all their pigeon mates. Shooting a few wouldn’t make a dent anyway.

Weirdly enough my Dad was telling me last night that he’s eradicated the pigeons from his back garden since he shot a few. (It’s well within 50m of a public highway, too, so I might need to send him a stern email).

Weirdly enough my Dad was telling me last night that he’s eradicated the pigeons from his back garden since he shot a few

Fair enough. Surprises me that it has any effect is all.

That GL42,I like the line

This licence is valid in England, landward of the mean low water mark.

I find this thread reassuringly British.

In the US we’d be reading about a mass shooting event…

Fair enough. Surprises me that it has any effect is all.

I have assumed they are territorial, I got rid of my mcdonalds fed flying rat garden pigeons 4 years ago with the airgun, 10 or so in 2 weeks and didn’t get any real return for 2 years. I then used a trap and got 6 in a week and now 2 years later other than passing birds, I had not seen any pigeons in the garden until a few weeks ago when a pair started the mating dance on my shed roof.
I think maybe they nest locally so new ones will not move in until at least the year after, as they already have a nest, or are junveniles and only settling down the mating season after they are born. But thats just conjecture based on the gap I created not being filled.

BTW this rustler trap is excellent and only 30 quid.
http://www.rustlertraps.co.uk/humane-traps/pigeon-traps
You then need a dispatcher which is a fancy pair of pliers. https://www.pestfix.co.uk/humane-bird-dispatcher-pliers.asp
Some older folk just do it manually, and arguably its quicker and more humane than the pliers.

Well, personally I leave fruit on the trees at the allotment for the birds to eat so it’s all a bit lost on me. 😂

It’s well within 50m of a public highway

The law is 50′ so quite a lot less than 50m…

Kayak23 for the allotment committee!

Seriously these organisations are normally semi democratic. Stand on a no shooting the pidgeons ticket or blocking those who mildly disagree on Facebook. You could end up running the show. You have been warned!

Your local police firearms licensing unit will provide advice and guidance – jsut ask the question as if you are thinking of getting an air rifle and shooting pigeons yourself.

The Arrogant-Committee arse presumably has an allotment‽ And there’s a badger sett nearby‽
Sausages. Frozen ones. Among the brassicas. Pigeons will be the least of his problems.
No idea about guns though.

Home Office guide to air weapons

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So if you have lawful authority (eg, GL42) it doesn’t apply, and if you don’t affect any road users it doesn’t apply.

Woodpigeon used to be included in Schedule 2 Part II of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 (Birds which may be taken or killed by authorised persons at any time), but were removed by The Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 (Variation of Schedules 2 and 3) Order 1992. But as above, GL42 applies if you comply with the conditions.

Your local police firearms licensing unit will provide advice and guidance – jsut ask the question as if you are thinking of getting an air rifle and shooting pigeons yourself.

I’ve chucked them an email pretending to be a budding pigeon fiddler 👍

I’ve chucked them an email pretending to be a budding pigeon fiddler 👍

Why not just tell them your concerns rather than mess them about and go around the houses?

I doubt any shooting enthusiast would object as dickheads with rifles are the quickest way to get their hobby outlawed.

Why not just tell them your concerns rather than mess them about and go around the houses?

Well, if a police armed response unit turn up this afternoon and start carting the committee members off in cuffs, it’s going to be pretty obvious who the informant was! Would definitely hamper your chances of a good result at the next village show. 😁