AIMUp – Action for the Innerleithen Mechanical Uplift

As above – pure ‘can’t do’ attitude. Pathetic.

Lead the charge then grum, we’re all right behind you. In fact i’ll personally guarantee i’ll be there 53 weekends a year and spent £100 a time on the chairlift. I promise.

grum – Member
As above – pure ‘can’t do’ attitude. Pathetic.

Scotland I believe markets itself as a world class biking destination, has won awards etc in the past – something like this could really help to make that a reality. So – it already is a reality. With thousands of miles of open trails, one uplift facility at Innerliethen is going to make no appreciable difference.

TBH, if I had that amount of money to spend on bike trails and facilities, I’d be looking at building something nearer Edinburgh or Glasgow. However, I suspect that there would be too much conflict with other land users.

Lead the charge then grum, we’re all right behind you. In fact i’ll personally guarantee i’ll be there 53 weekends a year and spent £100 a time on the chairlift. I promise.

I don’t live locally so it would be hard for me to get involved really. But anyway you’re right, moaning and making snidey comments is much more helpful and constructive.

So – it already is a reality.

Hmm, I wonder how many people actually visit Scotland from Europe/further afield to go mountain biking? I bet there’s not that many at the moment. As above, there are very few (any?) bike parks in Europe open in winter as they are generally ski resorts too, so one that did could have great appeal.

This has been talked about for a long time – no private investors have come along – why – because it simply is not viable in any form.

So TJ, you think that only things that are viable on a purely commercial basis have any merit and should be considered? Interesting attitude coming from you.

As above – pure ‘can’t do’ attitude. Pathetic.

. But anyway you’re right, moaning and making snidey comments is much more helpful and constructive.

Agreed that’s why I can’t bothered any more. It’s been looked at many times and the figures never worked, the cost is far too great. People make up silly figures, such as ooh you’ll get 35 a day easily.

Edited – so it makes sense

I wonder how many people actually visit Scotland from Europe/further afield to go mountain biking

not 35 people a day thats for sure.

the trouble is, none of us have accurate figures as to what a chairlift costs to build, and what it costs to maintain. Resorts in france seem to like putting in extra lifts left right and centre for the ski season. Does the one extra lift on the edge of a mountain, in an area which already has 40 lifts make them £500000 in extra income? I’d guess not, but they still do it

How many grand building projects, big engineering works etc in the past have been 100% viable commercially with no subsidy/support? How many of them had thousands of people going ‘this will never work’ etc etc

And this country has become known for a negative ‘can’t do’ attitude – fairly well typified in this thread.

People make up silly figures, such as ooh you’ll get 35 a day easily.

Go on then, what’s a realistic figure?

Would like to see an uplift, but as has been said proper research needs done.

I am sure at the right price you could sell a good number of season passes for an uplift which would bring in money upfront each year and generate a number of regular visitors who would want to get value for money nad may bring friends with them on odd days.

However If you look at the problems Hillend ski slope in Edinburgh has had it has been making losses and was in danger of closing before being bailed out by the council (although has now submitted plans for expansion). They had lift a accessed MTB trail for a while but it was little used.

crikey – Member
Sorry grum, but this is the fundamental problem. You’re essentially making it up.

Yep, he is, just as much as you’re making up that it’s rubbish. His figures don’t look unreasnoble.

To all those naysayers saying there isn’t a proper feasability study done on it, why not put your (well, RBS’s) money where you mouth is and vote for the study!

Edited – so it makes sense

I wonder how many people actually visit Scotland from Europe/further afield to go mountain biking
not 35 people a day thats for sure.

It still doesn’t make sense.

grum – Member
there are very few (any?) bike parks in Europe open in winter as they are generally ski resorts too, so one that did could have great appeal.

You weren’t in the Scottish Borders the last two winters, were you?

But anyway you’re right, moaning and making snidey comments is much more helpful and constructive.

I made quite a few reasoned posts which i can’t see any meaningful responses to by you. Yeah my last comment was sarcastic but you labelling the people who disagree with you as “pathetic” is hardly constructive either.

Fundamentally i dont believe its a goer. If you do and you feel that strongly about it get involved. Distance is no object in todays world, we’re probably arguing from other ends of the country about it…

I fear we are nearing a closed thread…

How many grand building projects, big engineering works etc in the past have been 100% viable commercially with no subsidy/support?

None, but generally those projects are seen to have a significant benefit to the population at large. Not a wee chairlift in the borders to serve a small group of extreme sports enthusiasts.

People make up silly figures, such as ooh you’ll get 35 a day easily.

Go on then, what’s a realistic figure?

Thats what we’re asking the people who want the thing built to tell us.

You weren’t in the Scottish Borders the last two winters, were you?

One swallow does not a summer make.

I made quite a few reasoned posts which i can’t see any meaningful responses to by you. Yeah my last comment was sarcastic but you labelling the people who disagree with you as “pathetic” is hardly constructive either.

Aye fair enough. It’s actually mainly TJ that massively winds me up with his style of arguing. I do still think we have a generally negative attitude in this country though and even if there was a very strong economic case there would be plenty on here going on about how it will never work.

grum – Member

……..

“People make up silly figures, such as ooh you’ll get 35 a day easily”.

Go on then, what’s a realistic figure?

Oh – I think 35 a day is realistic – you need at least ten times that tho.

To all those naysayers saying there isn’t a proper feasability study done on it,

There was some previous IIRC and yet here we are people wanting another.

Go on then, what’s a realistic figure?

I suppose you could argue as a mean it’s 35 but if you talking 100s at a weekend I kind of wonder could the lift cope with 100s to give moneys worth. If it could even at £30-35 per head it’ll still not make huge amounts.

Grum it’s not a case of “Oh my god this country and it’s negative attitude” some people have a different view on things. My view is based on the last decade of this discussion and yet as TJ says no one has said yes it’s worth it and laid out the cash.

Thats what we’re asking the people who want the thing built to tell us.

And that’s why they’re asking you to vote so they can do a feasability study!

Oh – I think 35 a day is realistic – you need at least ten times that tho.

350*£30*30(open weekends)*2(weekend days)=£630k

As someone said, the SDA races sell out that number at double that price for less riding and an uplift that scratches your bike to bits.

350*£30*30(open weekends)*2(weekend days)=£630k

I’m sorry why you doubling it?

Grum it’s not a case of “Oh my god this country and it’s negative attitude” some people have a different view on things.

You really don’t think this country has a negative attitude? It’s known for it internationally. I wonder how many people moaned about this and said it was a stupid idea?

A cable car in the PEAK DISTRICT? How ridiculous.

And that’s why they’re asking you to vote so they can do a feasability study!

This is the key point that everyone seems to be missing.

That figure quoted earlier of 125,000 visitors a year does not seem over optimistic. Llandegla was getting 120,000 in 2008 and is probably easily over 200,000 now. I am sure quite a few of the llandegla market (and quite a few others) would be happy to travel a bit further now and again for a bit of uplift action.

Assuming that it would only be downhillers using the facilities is misguided IMO. Loads of riders spend thousands of pounds to go to the alps every year and don’t own downhill bikes. At lac blanc there were kids on hardtails, people on XC bikes and obvious beginners on rental bikes. There was riders from Belgium, Luxenbourg and Northern France (5 /6 hour drive away), Germany and Switzerland as well as locals and at that time of the year the park was only open weekends. A 5/6 hour drive opens up a big catchment for a chairlift in the tweed valley. The queues for the lifts probably had a couple of hundred people in them at any time but it ran pretty quickly as each lift carried 3 bikes.

You really don’t think this country has a negative attitude? It’s known for it internationally.

I’m sorry where did I say that?

And that’s why they’re asking you to vote so they can do a another feasability study!

Which is another key point.

You really don’t think this country forum has a negative attitude? It’s known for it internationally.

FTFY

😉

You really don’t think that country forums have negative people with various attitude opinions? It’s known for it internationally.

FTFY.

Could you fix it again so it makes sense please?

Edited – so it makes sense

I wonder how many people actually visit Scotland from Europe/further afield to go mountain biking

not 35 people a day thats for sure.

I hear more English than Scottish accents, usually Geordies & Mancs, around the cafe and trails at Glentress, so there may not be a lot travelling from Europe and further, but Glentress certainly attracts a lot of people from further afield in the UK. Proper uplift facilities at Inners would only swell those numbers, which is a very good thing.

On a slightly different note, after my last recent visit I thought it would be great to have a bike park near the bottom of the Innerleithen runs. The GT bike park attracts loads of people and almost gets too busy some days. A park would increase numbers at Inners and help enable other facilities to be built IMHO. Park would be very useful as a training ground for riders before venturing further up the mountain.. I am often surprised how quiet Inners is considering the quality of the trails

i’ve been reading this thread, as i have read about the subject previously. would love to see it work, but the plans always seem to be too narrow-minded. by that i mean purely focusing on mtb (both dh & trail).

they should be looking at places like queenstown, NZ and see all the activities that are offered there. i’m thinking get the lift up to a big cafe/complex with stuff like a luge running back down to base, zorbing, bungey jump, launch area for para-gliders etc…plus the dh and xc trails. these alone would probably attract more visitors than the mtb trails and would definitely make the project more viable as well as significantly boost the local economy. but would minch moor be big enough to support this kind of activity??

it wont happen on dh alone.

I wonder how many people actually visit Scotland from Europe/further afield to go mountain biking

well given a choice between scotland and europe, i’ll go for spain, france or italy every time due to weather, expense, logistics of travel and bitey flies and i live in southern england so i wouldn’t expect too much traffic from europe

I hear more English than Scottish accents, usually Geordies & Mancs, around the cafe and trails at Glentress,

sounds like lots of traffic from edinburgh then.

A cable car in the PEAK DISTRICT? How ridiculous.

using an example from the tourist honeypot of matlock bath hardly applies to the case in question does it ?

i’ve been reading this thread, as i have read about the subject previously. would love to see it work, but the plans always seem to be too narrow-minded. by that i mean purely focusing on mtb (both dh & trail).

they should be looking at places like queenstown, NZ and see all the activities that are offered there. i’m thinking get the lift up to a big cafe/complex with stuff like a luge running back down to base, zorbing, bungey jump, launch area for para-gliders etc…plus the dh and xc trails. these alone would probably attract more visitors than the mtb trails and would definitely make the project more viable as well as significantly boost the local economy.

it wont happen on dh alone.

They plan on including a toboggan run too, probably similar to the one in Morzine. It was rammed with kids and non cyclists and downhillers having some time off the bike.

trailmonkey – Member

sounds like lots of traffic from edinburgh then. 😳

sounds like lots of traffic from edinburgh then.

😆

I’m sorry why you doubling it?

350*£30*30(open weekends)*2(weekend days

350 riders
30 weekends
Spending two days there per weekend
Spending £30 per day

They plan on including a toboggan run too, probably similar to the one in Morzine. It was rammed with kids and non cyclists and downhillers having some time off the bike.

yep i saw it on the brief, but these things should not be just ‘on the side’ rather combined with mtb to provide a multi-purpose attraction.

using an example from the tourist honeypot of matlock bath hardly applies to the case in question does it ?

My point is I bet people said exactly the same as the arguments against on here, yet it still happened. Yes Matlock is a tourist honeypot, but the cable car only climbs 169m FFS!

I’m launching my own project RIDEUp; for 2 million euro’s I reckon I could reduce the number of fat mtb’ers by 37% over 3 years, and have change to fit stairlift access to a cafe. I would note these figures are entirely pulled from my ass, which seems good enough to call facts given the general standard of this debate.

My point is I bet people said exactly the same as the arguments against on here

what, people seriously doubted that visitor numbers at matlock bath would enable the lift to be a success ?

they’d obviously never visited on a sunday afternoon.

What sums it up for me is two consecutive quotes:

Very roughly – if you averaged 35 riders a day (based on pure guesswork but not unrealistic imo) paying £35 each you would get £450k a year.

&

Back of envelope calculation: Doing a bit of googling it seems that average prices for a 4/5 seater lift in the alps is 6m Euros (£5m) a lift that is not designed for the alpine elements might come in cheaper maybe? so @ 5% interest that would need £250,000 to service borrowing.

Lets say there is an average of 300 riders paying £20 a time and the lift is open 150 days a year. Turnover would be £900,000.

Sorry boys. You are all just making it up. It is pointless bleating about being negative, but we are in the middle of the biggest economic downturn for a generation. The sums didn’t add up in the middle of a boom. Do you seriously believe that people ‘being positive’ on an internet forum is somehow going to make a difference in the real world? The country is going tits up big style at the moment. Nobody is going to pay for such a scheme. Get real!

what, people seriously doubted that visitor numbers at matlock bath would enable the lift to be a success ?

How many people do you think visit on a wet wednesday in November?

It is pointless bleating about being negative, but we are in the middle of the biggest economic downturn for a generation.

Yup and yet we still waste vast sums on all sorts of things.

Do you seriously believe that people ‘being positive’ on an internet forum is somehow going to make a difference in the real world?

No but it’s indicative of a general attitude in this country.

What is indicative of the attitude in this country is the economic poo we find ourselves in. The attitude of ‘I’ll ignore the economic reality & just spend anyway’ As demonstrated by the attitude ‘We waste lots of money so let’s big up an idea which appears to waste some more’

not 35 people a day thats for sure

I would say more than 35 people a day visit Scotland from outside Scotland to ride bikes, as an average. You must get hundreds every weekend and then there are summer hols etc. I don’t think you can compare numbers to Llandegla though, so close to many big population centres.

I reckon there miiiiight be potential with the expansion at Hillend. It would take a hell of a lot of work and permissions and investment in trails as you would be essentially starting from scratch in the trail sense, but you have a 450m hill with a floodlit chairlift already starting at 220m and going halfway, and supporting car parks, cafes etc, so the infrastructure is at least partly there. In an ideal world it would be workable, but i doubt there is anyone out there with the nouse, time and money to make the plan to a professional standard and get it into the planning system. if I win the euro millions…