Or they could keep reverting to rhetoric about their ‘rights’ under the second amendment…. etc.

All the people killed were pro gun/second amendment activists then ?

I hadn’t realised that.

So he wasn’t just shooting randomly after all. 🙄

Until they start to deal with it excuse me if I don’t have that much sympathy for the repeated toll of mass shootings. 

D’you know what, I don’t think I will – a level of ignorant self-righteousness that deep will have to work much harder than that.

Mass shootings have become the American norm. Their problem.

My wife’s American.

She is anti gun. If she got shot in a mass shooting, would you shrug your shoulders and say tough shit, cos some other people who were born a thousand miles away can’t govern a country?

All Americans are not personally responsible for this. You really need to stop thinking about ‘them’ like some big foreign other place. In our house, it’s ‘us’.

But as much as I am in favour of gun control, it is quite possibly not the real problem. Lots of other countries have high gun ownership and this happens far less. Problems go far deeper than lack of gun control laws.

I hear you mamadirt.

Nice post. I couldn’t agree more with what the video guy is saying. And yes, I’m putting my head above the parapet.

Bottom line is that it’s awful. They need to engage that conversation.

But also; Americans tend to be a law unto themselves. Yes, anything that happens stateside gets more media coverage . . . and oh, the humanity but this is not news. I’m bored of sympathy for something that is avoidable, yet they do not avoid.

But as much as I am in favour of gun control, it is quite possibly not the real problem. Lots of other countries have high gun ownership and this happens far less. Problems go far deeper than lack of gun control laws.

Yes; my point exactly. Canada for example. Why can’t the USA change their dialogue?

Apologies Molgrips; I’m not referring to individual Americans. More their culture.

Yes; my point exactly. Canada for example

Good example. Canada. The country with less guns per capita than France.

Nor does changing your social media profile picture or lighting up the Eiffel tower but this is how the west ‘deals’ with current events

I’ve never seen the point in that sort of thing, what they really mean is I can’t really be bothered to do anything meaningful so I’ll change my picture for a few days because it’ll make me feel like I’ve done something & look good to all my social media friends 😆

I suppose prayer is similar really, deep down these people must know that what they are doing is totally pointless 😕

The country with less guns per capita than France.

France doesn’t share an 8891 km border with the USA. In fact it’s on a different continent, and the French only have a slightly higher % of gun ownership.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada–United_States_border

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Canada/United-States/Crime

Canada have high levels of gun ownership – but relatively strict controls over what you can own, and who can own it.

canada’s gun laws

Do people genuinely think anything will change? This circle jerk has been going on for time with tiny wins and losses. But for the most part you’re free to own a shed like Arnies in Commando. The bodycount is never going to be high enough for anyone of those political vultures on either side to put aside their entrenched positions and actually find a middle ground.

Especially with their current penchant for name calling (nazi/snowflake), because that’s always deescalated situations since time.

No. https://t.co/EdYptrY7nh

— God (@TheTweetOfGod) October 3, 2017

France doesn’t share an 8891 km border with the USA. In fact it’s on a different continent,

What’s that got to do with ….

Lots of other countries have high gun ownership and this happens far less

Yes; my point exactly. Canada for example[/quote]

What’s that got to do with ….

Because unlike all the other countries in the ‘Gun ownership’ top percentiles, Canada happens to share an immediate proximity on two borders with the US.

Yet somehow they manage to maintain high gun ownership levels without shooting each other the entire time.

I’d say that in itself would make for a fairly appropriate contrast and comparison to the trigger happy American gun culture. Would you not?

Apologies Molgrips; I’m not referring to individual Americans. More their culture.

There is no one culture. There are peace loving progressives as well as gun loving nutjobs. I’d bet the vast majority of guns are owned by hunters, and are considered sporting equipment just like we think of our bikes.

There are many many different and hugely diverse social affiliations in America. The progressives, the intellectuals, the artists, the normal people, they don’t end up on the news. They do however write books we read, do research from which we benefit, write music to which we listen, make films we watch and so on and so on.

Gun nuts are a sub-set of Americans just as Islamic fundamentalists are a sub-set of Islam and UKIP are a sub-set of the British.

I’d bet the vast majority of guns are owned by hunters,

In countris like France and Canada, I’d agree with you and in some states like Alaska that’s probably true, but overall the most popular gun type owned in the USA is an automatic pistol. These are what kill most people through suicides, accidents, robberies, gang shootings etc…..

If they banned assault rifles, mass shootings might reduce but the overall gun carnage would carry on

molgrips – Member
I’ve never understood the prayers thing. Do people say that they are praying for someone as an excuse to avoid doing anything? Or is it a platitude? Somethign they say when they can’t think of anything else to say?

From what I know Prayer is meant to be a conversation with God. Rather than asking for something to be changed, you might ask for the strength to be able to deal with something. It’s a bit like meditation.

Also “starkly amusing”, I thought
https://rochdaleherald.co.uk/2017/10/02/mass-shootings-unsolvable-problem-says-country-mass-shootings-problem/

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ODeKJdhff0[/video]

Back in the 70’s/80’s when we were there (Southern Florida) we as Brits living on a estate built for the IBM expats, were told to get a gun.
Now my father was a lentil eating, passive liberal, knit your own shoes type, electronics and computer geek of the highest order and my mother the more pragmatic one. One day father turns up with a pistol, mother went beserk at the thought of it and for about a month (IIRC) arguments ensued.. then I thought the gun had been disposed of until I found it and took it out into the bushes to show my mates..
Then got the almightyest of bollockings that lasted until I was about 12..

It was the norm then to be told “to get one and arm yourself” and I think that culture is dying out, but it’s left a hardline legacy where factions of society co-exhist and hence the NRA has such a following.
Florida being one of the hardest nuts to crack I reckon..

Nothing wrong with hopes, prayers and thoughts as appropriate according to your faith or lack thereof, once you’ve done what you reasonably can do.

The sad fact of the matter is there are plenty of policy changes that may not have stopped this tragedy but would reduce the death toll vastly. But people have to take a long hard look at themselves and be realistic for that to work.

Isn’t the thoughts and prayers thing a bit like growing up, moving out of home, going your own way, and then wanting mummy to come and sort your problems out for you (even though she passed away 10 years ago).

I think the church make it quite clear – God gave humans free-will we then listened to a talking serpent, ate some fruit and got told “not under my roof – out”

Eventually a few righteous dudes turned up and tried to convince us to mend our ways, we still don’t listen. God isn’t going to sort our shit out for us.

Hence, thoughts and prayers is a waste of time after such an event. Recognising something is broken and fixing the issue is what is needed.

EDIT: Maybe I should have read the article before posting that 8)

How come the Swiss have guns in most houses (for possible military service) but don’t have regular massacres?

I’ve never been in a firefight but I would imagine that with somebody shooting at me I would be in a state of sweating terror, desperate to get away and certainly unable to stand calmly like in the movies, cock a gun and aim it accurately at my assailant. I might just let rip and accidentally shoot a couple of bystanders.

How come the Swiss have guns in most houses (for possible military service) but don’t have regular massacres?

I think a fairly strong society, and an understanding of what the guns are for (killing foreigners or food, not fun/collecting). Not looked into it in enough detail though and I’d be interested in anything that could be illuminating on this.

A big enough sub-set with enough influence to prevent gun control measures being introduced (my understanding is that if anything the 2nd amendment is being used to roll back gun control). So not really all that like your analogies?

Slight hi-jack, but don’t know any yanks, who I can ask !!

How do victims of these kinds of “mass” events pay for the healthcare for their injuries. Does their normal medical insurance stump up or is there some kind of national level medic-aid fund for events of this scale.

How do victims of these kinds of “mass” events pay for the healthcare for their injuries. Does their normal medical insurance stump up or is there some kind of national level medic-aid fund for events of this scale.

I don’t know about insurance, but those who don’t have it (11.3% of citizens – https://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/11/the-number-of-americans-without-health-insurance-rose-in-first-quarter-2017.html), still have to pay themselves. They will be treated immediately, without payment, but in the long-term, they will get a bill from the hospital for every minute of treatment.

I would imagine most victims would take out a civil lawsuit against the attacker, if known. No wonder lawyers are so rich in America.

Edit: it appears you can buy insurance against mass shootings 😯
Edit 2: I’ve just read that one such victim, from a previous event, was sent a bill for $20,000. He didn’t have insurance.

Aw that’s doubly horrible. So its not just the injury but also $$$$$

How come the Swiss have guns in most houses (for possible military service) but don’t have regular massacres?

The Swiss have 24 guns per hundred people, the US has 112 per 100. The Swiss also has much stricter gun control laws. The “national defence militia” does have a command structure which includes inspection of weapons maintenance and storage. There is also a robust system of reporting from the police, justice system and medical profession should it be deemed someone is no longer suitable to hold a firearm, and when reported any firearms will be confiscated.

The Swiss : its a while since I researched it but,
have loads of guns at home universal compulsory military training for the Home Army , weapons kept at home ammunition is kept at local arsenal so got the gun but not the bullets only massacre option is to beat people to death with the butt which is tiring.

A massive gun culture but that is reflected in training in clubs from an early age you can carry your gun to and from the range but not wander around with it . So responsible gun owners without guns randomly to hand.

to get a concealed or general carry permit you need to show a reason pass a mental health test a competence test and a legal test. so no random nutters tooled up and clueless.

Higher levels of education wealth and health than US

Oh and they still had a gun massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zug_massacre

True, many Americans resist any kind of gun control, even the most basic of checks is seen as an intrusion.

It’s all kind of pointless really as having all these guns has not prevented the Federal government introducing laws that limit civil liberties or ensure proper representation at trial – you need to be able to afford a good lawyer if arrested in the USA.

I think Samuel Colt pulled off a marketing coup in the nineteenth century and gun manufactures have been cashing in ever since; guns = the American way of life.

It will be interesting to see if there is any attempt to sue the manufactures this time around – probably not since the PLCA Act effectively stops this. (Guess who lobbied for that to be introduced)

I really think that one of the biggest differences between the USA and other countries in terms of approach to guns is fear. Fear is engendered in the US by a self-sustaining vocabulary.

A priest with whom I am friends, and who serves in the USA, posted something on facebook about the need for a more sensible approach to guns, and he received dozens of replies suggesting that he was being naïve, and asking ‘what will you do when your house gets broken into in the middle of the night?’ I mean, this kind of assumption is normal!

What the psychologist Erik Erikson calls ‘basic trust’ is very low among a lot of people in the US.

In spite of the comic tone of the South Park piece below, I actually think it is incredibly accurate.

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDCh4-pKrrE[/video]

Agreed; you can even join the dots;

Colt’s revolvers were held in such esteem by Captain Sam Walker and his Texas Rangers during the Seminole War that when the Mexican-American War flared up in the 1840s, Walker helped convince the U.S. War Department to order 1,000 revolvers from Colt “to keep the various warlike tribes of Indians and marauding Mexicans in subjection.”

from: Marketing Genius of Colt

Nowadays it is to keep murderers, robbers, and terrorists in subjection.

‘what will you do when your house gets broken into in the middle of the night?’ I mean, this kind of assumption is normal!

Isn’t it just classic escalation? They’ve got to the level where it is assumed everyone has a gun so therefore I need a bigger gun?

‘what will you do when your house gets broken into in the middle of the night?’

Well, personally I’d have a long hard think about whether I want to continue to live in a place where this is a genuinely a likely scenario.

I know it could happen here, but it is, generally speaking, rare enough that I don’t have to devote significant amounts of my time and effort to worrying about it.

It’s clear a lot of the self defence arguments originate form a basic fear of other people. Whether that fear is rational or not (ie: based in fact) should drive the response. I can well understand the desire to want to defend yourself from violent people entering your home or attacking you, but that provokes a few questions:

1> is it a rational fear, is it actually likely..
2> if it is, then how/why is your society in this situation!
3> if it isn’t then why are you so scared of your own society.

I don’t know how you go about tackling 2 or 3 🙁

If you could fix the cause of the fear (real or imagined) then the answer to 1 would clearly be ‘no’. And that would leave very few arguments left other than ‘we like guns’.

(I know I know…rational argument, sensible discussions and looking at the actual problems in society is a crazy idea!)

‘what will you do when your house gets broken into in the middle of the night?’

It does sound like escalation. House breakers assume the home owners are armed, home owners assume house breakers are armed. So someone dies.

I’m sure I mentioned this story before, but my future wife was once at home (aged about 23 or so) with her mum and sister when someone tried to get in the house. They called the cops, turned out to be someone who was so pissed they were trying to get into the wrong house.

Plenty of people get shot in these circumstances. And in may states the shooters may not end up being prosecuted.

‘what will you do when your house gets broken into in the middle of the night?’

The Jim Jeffries clip linked in the first thread deals with this one quite well.

Unless you’re the kind of person who has their legal firearm in the drawer next to your bed ready for your kids to blow each others’ brains out during playtime (happens quite frequently, apparently), you’ll spend your last moments stark naked trying to remember the combination to your locked gun cabinet.

Unless of course, they just want the telly, in which case they’ll take the telly and bugger off.

martinhutch – Member

The Jim Jeffries clip linked in the first thread deals with this one quite well.

Unless you’re the kind of person who has their legal firearm in the drawer next to your bed ready for your kids to blow each others’ brains out during playtime (happens quite frequently, apparently), you’ll spend your last moments stark naked trying to remember the combination to your locked gun cabinet.

I got you homie….

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vu741nnEk3c[/video]

I got you homie….

Looks great! But what about my AR-15, which is a vital part of my home defense solution, and also needs to be handy in case a gang of heavily armed bad hombres try to nick my telly?

my future wife was once at home (aged about 23 or so)

Very strong, especially as I recall your wife posting on here.