Too many of our guys are paying the ultimate price for their country!

As a person who knows how it feels to suddenly loose a sibling, a parent, a best friend and others, my sympathies are with the bereaved.

Does anyone have a clue what we are trying to achieve out there anyway?

Does anyone have a clue what we are trying to achieve out there anyway?

Although you say the Middle East I guess you mean Afghanistan. According to the BBC, Lt Col Nick Richardson in Afghanistan said :

"It's the only way to secure a future for Afghanistan and ultimately eliminate the risk posed to the international community that the Taliban and insurgents there bring," he said.

"We ask people to remember 9/11 and 7/7 and ask themselves whether they thought trying to prevent this from happening would be a worthwhile cause."

Why Osma bin Laden is waiting until Afghanistan has fallen to the Taliban to give the order for further attacks on London and New York, quite frankly baffles me. Surely he has the use of a mobile phone ? The comment of course also completely ignores the fact that 7/7 happened 2 years ago when Afghanistan was a lot more secure than it is today, and the Taliban certainly weren't in power.

It must very tragic losing a son, husband, or brother, fighting for a cause you believe in – however worthwhile it might be. How much more tragic must it be to lose someone you love in a war whose aims you do not even understand.

Just to add to my last post – I don't believe that Osma bin Laden needs to, or necessarily does, give the order for attacks. Al-Qaeda is not a disciplined army with strict command structures. 'Al-Qaeda' is simply an all-embracing term for like-minded terrorists who share similar goals. I have no doubt that many operate quite independently of each other. And I have no idea whether or not Osma bin Laden gave the specific orders for the 9/11 and 7/7 attacks. Obviously offering Al-Qaeda as a highly disciplined enemy with a ruthless and hated figure-head has it's advantages.

Almost every war has been fought to further the countries interests or defend the countries economic interests. Solders/the Army is there to defend our interests. WWII is the most recent/different case. IMO Soldiers can not sign up then chose which wars they can participate in, only serve their country. Ergo they are protecting our interests (which are a mix of defence, economic etc). Its not just a case of 'its Terrorism' or 'its Christianity' or 'its oil'. Its more complex and always has been.

History tells time and time again, we will not win the war in Afghanistan. All we can hope for is that someone can create a stable country, but it will have to come from within Afghanistan and not be an imposition. If we impose a government it to will fail.

If you take soldiers to another country the population will fight back, what we see in Afghanistan is no more than history repeating itself. The only question is how long till the allied forces are forced to withdraw by public opinion.

Not trying to be negative, but what alternative is there to the Taliban? tribal warlords? Western appointees?

I have nothing but admiration for the soldiers, i just feel that it is another pointless war where the reasons keep on changing and that to many will die for, what in the end will be no good reason.

Why's WWII different?

this was covered in great depth the other day, but ultimately we are there because abandoning them again to live off mud and in fear extremists groups from Pakistan (who ran the country before) is the best way to ensure that a nuclear weapon is detonated in a major western city.

So the choice is, we try to help stabilise Afghanistan and lose a number of troop in the process (who joined up knowing exactly what they were volunteering themselves for) or we pull out, sit safe in our homes for a few years until thousands of civilians are killed in the jihad against the West.

The Pakistani govt tried just ignoring the Taliban, just as the West did and look at the trouble they are in, so actually this does seem to be a rare case where Politicians are learning from history, and trying to prevent the same mistakes from happening.

I think the key reason why we should still be in there, is to clear up the mess that we (the West and the Russians) caused in the cold war years.

Until we've allowed the locals to establish a stable and secure respectful society, not necessarily a democracy but certainly not a facist regime (and make no mistake, that is what the taliban are), then the job isn't finished.

We should not consider leaving them until there is a functioning government and basic educational/healthcare facilities for the majority of the population – we're pissing around with a half arsed attempt to stabilise, without putting anywhere near the massive and dominating effort we should into reconstruction, the purpose of the military is and should be to protect the civil engineering projects – bridges, schools, hospitals, roads, the very stuff of any hearts and minds operation – This will cost a lot, but its nothing in comparison with the money we spend on building a new stretch of motorway or a cross london railway link, let a lone saving a bloody bank.

I'm convinced that a full effort from NATO could do this within a couple of years, but without political will and with risk averse politicians we're likely to just keep Afghanistan running like a festering wound with no chance of resolution – open the government coffers, say to the Generals what we want as a strategic outcome (eg. we want a functioning government) give them everything they ask for and let them do the bloody job properly their own way without interfering.

What Zulu Eleven said hits the nail pretty much on the head.
If we (the UK & USA) had let nature take its course in Iraqi we would have had the resources to be some where near finishing what we started on Afganistan. As it stands we have only just started.

Sadly i think we need to be prepared for many more losses in the coming years.

Could we have a day of not posting "why, o why?" threads for a couple of days while those inclined to post them gather the wherewithal to do a "I know they say this is why, but it doesn't stack up" thread. 😐

"Why are we still fighting in Afghanistan? Does the Union Jack not fly over Port Stanley? Did General Belgrano die in vain?"

clear up the mess that we (the West and the Russians) caused in the cold war years.

Except that the "mess" has now also mutated into a narco-economy…

Prior to joining the Army, my dad travelled across Afghanistan (pre-Soviet invasion). He loved the place – complex, harsh, and beautiful. So, not unlike his native Somerset.

Ianmunro (all IMO of course), Germany's non-too friendly expansionism.

War is never clear-cut. Its not 'oil'. The Guardian writer who thinks that must be in cloud cuckoo land to think any army/country could surpress such a region and not have future volatility affecting the supply line (thus voiding out the whole reason for it). Either that or the Government is extremely naive if they think they can achieve that.
The lads on the ground fight and die or pick up a small pension with the likes of Mcnamara (Vietnam) feeling bad afterwards in luxury..

"War is never clear-cut. Its not 'oil'. The Guardian writer who thinks that must be in cloud cuckoo land to think any army/country could surpress such a region and not have future volatility affecting the supply line (thus voiding out the whole reason for it). Either that or the Government is extremely naive if they think they can achieve that."

Chainey, Bush, Blair, just 3 names that spring to mind

gather the wherewithal

What's the problem with taking 0.5 minutes to google for a vaguely relevant Guardian article? What do you want, Dummy, blood? 🙂

Chainey:- Covered in oil from birth
Bush:- I think we can safely leave that one blank
Blair:- committed Christian and Peace envoy who started two wars

🙁

For The Fallen
With proud thanksgiving, a mother for her children,
England mourns for her dead across the sea.
Flesh of her flesh they were, spirit of her spirit,
Fallen in the cause of the free.

Solemn the drums thrill; Death august and royal
Sings sorrow up into immortal spheres,
There is music in the midst of desolation
And a glory that shines upon our tears.

They went with songs to the battle, they were young,
Straight of limb, true of eye, steady and aglow.
They were staunch to the end against odds uncounted;
They fell with their faces to the foe.

They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years contemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.

They mingle not with their laughing comrades again;
They sit no more at familiar tables of home;
They have no lot in our labour of the day-time;
They sleep beyond England's foam.

But where our desires are and our hopes profound,
Felt as a well-spring that is hidden from sight,
To the innermost heart of their own land they are known
As the stars are known to the Night;

As the stars that shall be bright when we are dust,
Moving in marches upon the heavenly plain;
As the stars that are starry in the time of our darkness,
To the end, to the end, they remain.

I firmly believe we can and must separate the debate of the morals of this and other conflicts from our feelings for all the people who die. any death is a tragedy. A pointless death more so perhaps

Until we've allowed the locals to establish a stable and secure respectful society,

By "locals" are you including the Taliban? Because they're more local then we are…

Sadly, the soldiers will always be inbetween a rock and hardplace. Brave men and women. We arent going to win anything in Afghanistan, just buying time for our eventual withdrawal 🙁

any death is a tragedy.

unless it's a tasty animal ?

I suspect the only way the troops are protecting us is by providing easily accessible targets 🙁

I suspect the only way the troops are protecting us is by providing easily accessible targets

Yep 😥

In a "war" of Bombs Vs Belief there will only be one outcome.

The Pakistani govt tried just ignoring the Taliban, just as the West did and look at the trouble they are in

Actually before Nov 2001 when the Taliban was in power in Kabul and it was ignored by the Pakistani government, they had no significant influence in Pakistan.

Since 2001 the Pakistani government has been very pro-active in helping to fight the Taliban (this was the condition on which the US agreed to support the Pakistani dictator Gen. Pervez Musharraf) Today the Taliban has huge influence across vast areas of Pakistan.

.

I suspect the only way the troops are protecting us is by providing easily accessible targets

Only a fool (or a FoxTV gullible yank) would believe that those who planned and executed the destruction of the Twin Towers were stupid. Clearly they were not. And of course they would have been fully aware that merely striking at two towers at the heart of the US financial sector, would not bring about the destruction of American society as we know it. Nor would it represent some sort of mortal blow to US imperialism.

The aim of the 9/11 attack was clear – it was to taunt and provoke the US. And that respect the attack has been a complete success. The terrorists correctly anticipated the reactions of a neo-conservative Christian fundamentalist US president committed to the Project for a New American Century's doctrine of "Full Spectrum Dominance".

So too, did they correctly gauge US public opinion, as the world's only super-power was comprehensively humiliated.

Dutifully the West responded to the call for a global jihad by sending it's young men and women to fight and die in a new crusade. It was as if Osma bin Laden himself, had picked up the phone and told to the US president "we have no airforce or navy so you come over to us so that we can fight you and kill you".

And the plan is going pretty well for them – the US has paid dearly. It has cost the Republican Party the presidency, the US faces the real possibility of a 'Vietnam' type humiliation, global animosity against the US reached new dizzy heights, at one point recently Taliban forces were only 75 miles from Pakistan's nuclear facilities, the hated atheist Saddam Hussein has been overthrown and the clerics now have real power in Iraq. And the British Labour government is paying the price for a acting like a taunted dumb animal on a daily basis.

Of course ultimately the jihadists will fail. Because slowly but surely, the stupidity of pouring petrol onto a fire will become apparent.

imo – of course.