Melissa Gunn
Hi all,
We (the 7stanes CIC) are planning to redesign the existing trail maps and would like to know what kind of design you think it should be? Would you like something foldable, for example? What other features/information would you like to see on it? Let us know your ideas!

from facebook page

they should provide the maps in app form with gps location shown… not that its that hard to navigate a trail centre.

They should take all the trail centres out to cater for STW members.

They should take all the trail centres out to cater for STW members.

🙂 Aye, or at least include the routes for fixie cross bikes.

Cannae think of much wrong with the current maps tbh – they’re spot on.

Honestly? The existing maps are spot on. Could do with elevation detail, but otherwise not broke, don’t fix. Glentress map could do with a boxout for the top car park (like the KT one has) I think as it’s a bit confusing with all the routes if you don’t know it. (could do with better signage IMO)

But they’re clear and easy to read but stil have loads of info in.

Hi folks,
Yes, the CIC are re-designing the maps – the actual map itself will stay the same (with a few trail updates where applicable), but we are making them waterproof and folded down to a smaller size so they can be re-used and are generally a bit more practical. We will have some other information on the other side of the map, but you’ll have probably seen it before (trail grading, health and safety etc). We are trying to design them so that they can be used by all types of users, so we are a bit restricted in what we can have on the maps. We don’t want to have too much, but then again don’t want to have too little! It will be a challenge
Melissa

Will the maps still be free after this upgrade? Waterproof maps would be nice but if that means they’d cost money then I think that free, non-waterproof ones should continue to be available.

Currently some of the maps have elevation profiles for the trails and others don’t, I think. It would be nice if all the maps had this information.

I think they are good as they are, and I make maps for a living so I must be right :P. Could try adding hillshade to give some more representation of the terrain but that might just make a mess of otherwise tidy maps.

could do with better signage IMO

how many signs do people need? Glentress and Innerleithen even have signs suggesting what you should be wearing. 😕

Yes we will still have the maps available for download on the website for free!

Yes we will still have the maps available for download on the website for free!

Waterproof download? Cool.

Make them A0 sized so I can read them without my specs 😆

Oh- current map falls down a wee bit at waypoint 16 IMO, where the blue doubles back on itsself, not that clear what’s going on there. Could do with “Blue outbound” and “Blue return” or something.

GW – Member

how many signs do people need? Glentress and Innerleithen even have signs suggesting what you should be wearing.

The signing from the buzzard’s nest is poor considering how many trails start there. Fireroad up past the freeride area towards the black could definately do with a big “Practically all the trails go up here”- once you’re pointing in that direction it’s all fine but it’s not that obvious to start. Blue descent has one tiny wee post, very easy to miss especially when there’s people mobbing around at the top.

Repair old trails or build new ones rather than wasting money on maps. Particularly as you already have good maps which can be put in a poly pocket or a map case, becoming much more foldable and weather resistant.

How far do you think the map redesign budget would go if spent on trails? Also, some of the maps are out of date and could do with a revamp regardless.

The signing from the buzzard’s nest is poor considering how many trails start there. Fireroad up past the freeride area towards the black could definately do with a big “Practically all the trails go up here”

is that big **** off sign with a map on it at the corner of the Buzzards nest no longer there then?

Blue descent has one tiny wee post, very easy to miss especially when there’s people mobbing around at the top.

Is that post really any smaller than any all the others? Awwww, poor wee sign 😥 Maybe they could spend their money on free guide (trail) dogs for the incompitent 🙄

7stanescic – Member

Yes we will still have the maps available for download on the website for free!

I was more thinking about free maps being available at the trailhead, so that it’s a no-brainer for a new visitor to one of the Stanes to pick up its map before heading out on their ride. They probably won’t need it but if they have to bail out or really desperately want to go back and ride a section again they’ll be glad they picked one up.

Downloading and printing maps requires forethought and making the only maps available at the trailhead not free stop it from being quite such a no-brainer of a decision.

Personally I expect that I’ll be very happy to own a set of waterproof maps for the 7 Stanes, as long as they aren’t ruinously expensive. 🙂

stuartlangwilson – Member

Repair old trails or build new ones rather than wasting money on maps. Particularly as you already have good maps which can be put in a poly pocket or a map case, becoming much more foldable and weather resistant.

This is being done by 7Stanes CIC. By the looks of things they’re concerned with marketing and promotion of the 7Stanes, not trail maintenance/development. The following quotes are taken from here.

“The CIC has been established to enhance the marketing and PR opportunities for the 7stanes sites and encourage greater partnership opportunities for the public and private sector organisations who support the 7stanes…”

and

The CIC employs a Development Manager and Executive who will promote and market the 7stanes including brand management. The main aim is to sustain the 7stanes project by increasing visitor numbers and generating revenue to make the project self-funding. The management of the trails will remain with Forestry Commission Scotland.

GW – Member

Is that post really any smaller than any all the others? Awwww, poor wee sign

No, but it’s a trailhead going out the back side of a busy car park, when everyone’s looking in the other direction. And it’s a blue trail, so targeted partly at people who’re not so used to how this stuff works. It’s not rocket science this… The little signs are good when you’re (for example) riding up a fire road and there’s an obvious junction or trail running off the side, but they’re not much use when you’re standing 50 feet away in a car park covered surprisingly enough with cars and people. More obvious signs for less obvious instructions

The current maps are fantastic, credit where it’s due.

If every marker post had a fixed copy of the map with “you are here” and a big arrow, it’d be hard to improve on that.

Are these waterproof maps going to be sustainably produced and recyclable? If not, then please don’t consider them! A degradable/recyclable paper copy is all that’s needed and is much more sustainable. I doubt many people reuse these kinds of maps anyway so you would still be printing similar numbers.

I’d prefer maps to be large, unfolded, free, with contour lines on, probably OS origin. You can put as many adverts as you like on the back, but please not on the front reducing space.

Z cards suck btw!

Personally I can’t see the point of waterproof maps. Doesn’t the market research show that many people visit a trail centre as a one off, and therefore a waterproof map wouldnt be necessary. Besides why do you need a map at a trail centre, unless you are going to show other trails in the area that are not way marked?

I rode Dalbeattie last night for the first time last night, didn’t crave a map, however would have been good if the way markers referred to mile ‘x’ etc.

Some kind of phone map app linked to gps may be worth it though, modern technology and all that.

Was thinking pretty much the same about waterproof maps. When I’m at a new centre I’ll pick one up but it tends to last that ride and never be seen again.

There are definitely rides where it would have been useful as map is ruined if in pocket or a pain if in bag but why not just sell map covers right beside the maps?

Unless it was something like a book that covered all the Stanes that was somehow small enough to be managable and waterproof to last ride after ride but think that’s a bit out there!!

Thanks for all your comments folks – they are very useful to us.

When I say the new maps are being redesigned, I maybe wasn’t being very clear – the actual maps won’t be changed in their overall look and these are still designed by the Forestry Commission who supply them to us, the 7stanes CIC. Instead, we will be producing what could be called a ‘Trail Guide’ for each stane which will contain the map itself (the most updated version FCS have) as well as some health & safety information, information on the stane, information on how far away the other stanes are, etc.

Our main aim is to make the 7stanes CIC self-sustaining and the maps are a way of us generating income. Importantly though, they are a response to the comments we have been receiving from individuals and businesses that the free maps were being thrown away, which is obviously not very environmentally friendly! We figured that if we made the maps waterproof, a bit easier to fold up and put in your pocket, and charged for them then people would be less likely to throw them away. The maps will be priced at £2, and will also be available online as a set once our online shop is up and running.

Stevemtb, you mentioned that you tend to get a map if it’s a new centre and then you never see it again. There are probably a fair few people who do the same, but there’s also probably a lot of other people who would love to have something to take home as a souvenir, maybe to show their friends which trail they did, or just to keep as something a reminder of their day.

We have looked at apps too, and this is something that I personally believe would definitely worth a try – maybe if the map sales generate enough income we could look into this further!

ChrisL – thank you for providing more information on the thinking behind the maps, you got it pretty much spot on! I was probably being rather rude in my first post on this thread by not introducing myself – my name is Melissa and I’m the Development Executive for the 7stanes CIC. I manage all the social media channels we have including the Facebook page where this was originally posted (and Twitter and our YouTube channel), as well as the website. I’m also managing the re-design of the trail guides. If anyone has any questions, I’d be happy to answer them.

p.s. I should probably mention that we don’t have responsibility for maintenance of the trails – this still sits with the Forestry Commission.

Too expensive

Stevemtb, you mentioned that you tend to get a map if it’s a new centre and then you never see it again. There are probably a fair few people who do the same, but there’s also probably a lot of other people who would love to have something to take home as a souvenir, maybe to show their friends which trail they did, or just to keep as something a reminder of their day.

What sort of nerd would do that? *cough*

Mrs Toast = sad.

😛

Just to add after a first ride at Dalbeattie and Kirroughtree.

I didnt feel like I needed a map at either.

However at both trail heads it would have be nice to have a big board with all the trail maps on it ie some thing 2m x 1m etc + with avg times to complete.

Mrs FD & Jnr FD came to Kirroughtree and we couldnt find any maps with just the walking routes on so that Mrs FD could go walking with Jnr, yes they are marked at the trail heads, but it would have been nice to have been able to plan ahead.

We also took Jnr FD out in a trailer. The only route available was the green route which took all of about 30 mins and was a bit dull. There are plenty of fire road tracks in the forest itself, but you can barely make them out on the existing maps.

Also do the maps tell you the avg time to get round? And I thought the A4 exisitng maps were great in that you could fold them in to whatever size and shape you wanted.

Still dont think waterproof is a good idea, I saw 2 disgarded maps whilst out riding…

Mrs Toast – lovin’ your board 😀

FunkyDunc – we’re currently in the process of getting the Trails table on the map updated my FCS so we can continue to have the trail gradings, length of trail, duration etc. Invaluable bits of information!

How about something that says IN THE NAME OF GOD ride up the Dougie Bank instead of the fireroad. Some days it seems like everyone rides past it.

I’ve noticed the quality of the maps isn’t as good when I print them off, compared to a few months ago. Is it just me/my computer/rubbish printer?

Not a real problem, just the old ones are clearer and nicer!

P.s. I would still buy one at £2 though, I’m not a tight fisted so and so. 😆

Don’t take this the wrong way Melissa, but isn’t the main reason for charging for the maps a reduction in funding? I was at Mabie/Kirroughtree/Dalbeattie last month and was told by someone there that the funding from <whoever> was being reduced or removed entirely so charging for the maps was a way to generate some income.

I generally wouldn’t bother with a map at a trail centre other than a quick glance online or in the visitor centre, but if they weren’t free and the money was going towards trail and/or visitor centre maintenance I’d buy one.

I have PDF versions of the maps on the iBooks thingy on my iPhone. Works well and can zoom for more detail when needed – can usually work out where I am. An app that just updated those maps as needed would be fine for me- wouldn’t need to do much else (and hopefully would cost next to nothing).

Lots of you guys ^^^^^^^^ seem to be of the opinion that people new to the “sport” and trail centres in particular have no need for a map.
I was at Dalby recently and having been round the blue with MrsT and short on time I fancied a short ride on the red route. Without a map(useless compared to Stanes map btw)I could not have done that.
With lots more families(something the Stanes set out to achieve)now getting out on the trails these are the people in need of a map to do as I did, find short cuts, make up a route they can achieve(assuming they can read a map.
I spend a fair bit of time hanging around local trail centre cafes(sometimes more than riding!!!! )and can assure all the nay sayers maps are required by many people. Maybe Melisa can provide a statistic, FC must(?)know how many map pads have been printed/distributed over the years?

“Lots of you guys ^^^^^^^^ seem to be of the opinion that people new to the “sport” and trail centres in particular have no need for a map.”

No, the OP came on STW asking for peoples opinions. As we all know STW is full of riding gods who know everything about everything, just one section of I expect the foot fall at the trail centres. So I assume the OP is also getting a balanced opinion from other sources… I don’t know, maybe down at Asda or Halfords etc….

Reading the above about funding. If I knew funding was being reduced I would certainly pay for a map if it helped pay wages and up keep etc.

Lots of you guys ^^^^^^^^ seem to be of the opinion that people new to the “sport” and trail centres in particular have no need for a map.

Not me, I have no doubt people generally need or prefer to take a trail map. This is probably an even better reason for keeping the free paper ones – if somebody new to the sport can’t afford or prefers not to pay for a trail map the chances of them misreading the signage and going the wrong way or getting lost altogether is probably greater.

If the reason for charging for laminated maps is just to provide a ‘better’ map then keep supplying the free paper ones also and give people the choice. If it is partly to provide additional funding then be transparent about that – if folks think they’re helping out they’re more likely to buy one (IMO).

Expecting me to buy a map because it’s laminated and would be a nice souvenir is a good way to make me not buy one. But then I’m tight and grumpy.

No, the OP came on STW asking for peoples opinions. As we all know STW is full of riding gods who know everything about everything, just one section of I expect the foot fall at the trail centres. So I assume the OP is also getting a balanced opinion from other sources… I don’t know, maybe down at Asda or Halfords etc….

Reading the above about funding. If I knew funding was being reduced I would certainly pay for a map if it helped pay wages and up keep etc.
Accepted
Have also suggested Melissa hangs out at the trail centre cafes to gain some real time/life feedback instead of the usual student doing a tourism course!!
Upkeep as Melissa has already mentioned is not part of her remit, it`s all about marketing.
Having been on this here forum since before 7Stanes and when CyB was just an infant I have heard and seen most of what has been written before.
The guy I spoke to at A&E this afternoon wished he had had a waterproof map after getting caught in the downpour we had, falling off, breaking his collarbone and needing assistance whilst not knowing how to short cut the trail. The most recent example/scenario I could give you for the need to carry a map if/when you do not know the area/trail you are riding
Therefore if it is printed on decent, waterproof paper it would be more useful. Unlike the out of the printer rubbish I got at Dalby a couple of weeks ago.

It is not in Melissa`s remit but it would be better if FC standardised maps for ALL trail centres so that they were the same quality everywhere

The issue is can maps be turned into a revenue stream.

The current 7 stanes maps are very good, but are free. Easily weatherproofed with a map case. £10 on a case and some free maps or printouts is better value than a series of water resistant maps for £2 each IMO.

Maybe the disorganised people market is big enough for a profit?

Presumably the sums will be done before going to print 💡
10yrs ago at the start of the project waterproof maps were discussed but due to the trails still evolving and new stuff being added all the time the idea was dropped. Now that there are “no new trails” being built, only “upgrades” it makes sense to have a decent map.
Having said that there is the long awaited/delayed “upgrade” to the Blue route at Ae still on the cards I believe