Bought a 2nd hand Vw Toran 6weeks ago, went with a trader rather than private to specifically get a warranty and some sort if come back if things went wrong. Well last night they did, the top engine mount failed, hit the timing belt and blew the engine.

It was bought through a dealer with a 12month warranty. I had the car towed back with the dealer last night and his mechanic is going to look at it today just to confirm that it was the engine mount that failed 1st not the belt (which isn’t covered by Warranty). The car had a new timing belt fitted and you can see the little white dots that line up etc. When they do this. My suspicion is that when the belt was done the engine mount wasnt secured properly and has been working loose since.

2nd phone call to the dealer today to see where we are with warranty (statory or extended), I’ve been nice and civil on the phone no finger pointing or demands and he’s starting to push back a little…. As expected.

So where do I stand – do you think I’m within my rights to get my cash back?

do you think I’m within my rights to get my cash back?

Probably unlikely you can just demand the money back as the first course of action. More likely you have to accept it being repaired within a reasonable time scale or an equivalent replacement. I think the general assumption is back to the point you were before the insured incident, though things might not be straightforward with a second hand vehicle.

Hopefully they’ll do you right without too much argument. What do the T’s & C’s of the warrantee say?

If it’s one of those “auto protect” warranty’s my experience was that it was useless. The warranty mainly seems to benefit the dealer because they can just tell you to deal with the warranty company when a car they’ve sold goes wrong. Of course, since it’s the dealer that bought the warranty and not you, they’ve bought a very cheap warranty which doesn’t cover very much.

In my case, the garage didn’t change the cambelt properly. Auto protect weren’t interested. Had to get another garage to repair (at my expense), pay for an engineer to inspect the damage and claim back (over 2k) through small claims court.

If things get serious, sending them a copy of an N1 form you’ve filled in (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/form-n1-claim-form-cpr-part-7)  before you submit it might be a good way to convince them to refund you now to avoid any more hassle.

Unfortunately due to working getting into details of the warranty isn’t something I have time to look at. With a bit of Goodleigh it looks like it’ll be a bit of a battle as he’s already trying to claim that hitting a pothole could have caused it rather than an existing fault when I bought the car…..

Makes sense why he was trying to get me to say I’d hit a curb or pothole on the phone now. As you say after a bit of Google-ing I won’t be able to get cash back as it’s post 30days of purchase, it would be a repair or replacement job, but only if I can prove it was sold with the fault. Arrrgggg

Horatio – yeah that is the worst case scenario I think it could be at the moment. It’ll almost certainly be an independent DEKRA?assessment as it’s his view vrs mine at the moment. Ill see what his mechanic says, if I disagree I’ll get it independently assessed before going further. Unfortunately it’s a 3.5k car so paying for getting an engine replaced is a bit pointless for me. Rather than just the assessment and then small claims/motor ombudsman.

Ill also see if the insurance company can help with any legal back up (you never know).

Good luck.

We bought our car from a dealer network that said a lot about their warranty and that they gave us a two year one, turns out they’re not really worth the paper they’re written on and anything a reasonable person expects to be covered isn’t.

In your case it sounds like your warranty is the same as it’s not even been mentioned. If you suspect they are at fault and that they are also not going to be reasonable then you probably want it looked at by an independent party, they’re not exactly sounding like they’re going to admit any fault and if you have to go to a small claims court then the extra evidence could come in handy.

you’ve already said all that now it seems – I’m a really slow typer.

As you say after a bit of Google-ing I won’t be able to get cash back as it’s post 30days of purchase, it would be a repair or replacement job, but only if I can prove it was sold with the fault

You shouldn’t have to prove it was faulty when sold.  The warranty covers things going wrong – in this case, the engine mount.  It *should* be a straightforward claim – however, that is rarely the case with car dealers.

And I also don’t agree with the dealer saying hitting a pothole could cause the top engine mount to fail.  It would have to be one big pothole…

Good luck though.

In a situation like this the most sensible thing to do would be to call Citizens Advice and see what they suggest.

They’ll be able to give you all of the information you need as to what you can and can’t do.

Has the whole front suspension collapsed, are you missing the contents of the radiator (and most of the bottom of the radiator)?

Have both front tyres burst, is the tracking all over the place i.e. bent suspension?

If the answer to any of these is no, i’d be telling him to jog on if he thinks an engine mount would fail unless it was already broken or misfitted when he sold it to you.

That’s the typical sort of damage we’ll see testing a car when you manage to damage an engine mount. (Pothole or high kerb strikes etc Usually at 100+kph…….)

Ok, update. Just spoke to my local garage guy, who’s a vw specialist and showed him the crappy photos I took. 1St off he thinks itll probably be better than a new engine as part of the (blatantly new ) timing belt was left on (around 50%) so the pistons shouldn’t be out of alighnement and blown the engine. The noise I heard would just be the bits of belt/mount flying around the engine bay. The mount that broke is a replaceable unit and shouldn’t have damaged / snapped off castings of the engine. The bolts that hold it on are shear bolts and designed to fail if you have a head on collision. Also the engine mount is clearly not where it should be in the photo so it’s not a belt failiure …..

My mechanic instantly said upon seeing the photo “that cam belts not been put on correctly” there shouldn’t be the little dabs of white to line up the cogs (not needed on these engines) and the engine mount wouldnt have be torqued correctly and failed as a result cutting the belt.

So it ‘should’ be  a few hundred to repair rather than 1000’s (new engine mount and cam belt). Im hoping the dealer will convey this this afternoon and stump up. Otherwise it’ll be a case of saying ‘i know my consumer rights’ and threaten independent assessment at him as before.

The garage I’d had problems with said the cambelt had failed because i’d changed gear wrong and/or over-revved the engine. It failed on a the M3 in rush hour in the rain. I just ignored him. He paid up before court

ghostlymachine has the most sensible advice.

dont go in trying it on with the little dabs of white mean it was done wrong – you cant prove that – there are many reasons why folk put white dabs on from being unable to see the timing marks to the timing marks just being wrong (they are on some cars) to the flat out blatent bodge your trying to imply but he will walk all over that as your line if you try to get a claim against that.

IF the engine mount has failed with in 6 weeks of purchase its either belt was fitted wrong ( and by belt i mean the whole process of fitting the belt – ie refitting the mount) or the mount had a pre existing defect.

Dealer hasnt a leg to stand on really.

trail_rat agree,  I’m not going to spout specifics to him, I’m not a mechanic so could just be talking bs. I’m also not going to accuse him of anything, I’ve been more than nice at the mo, as has he but could tell on the last phone call he was trying to squirm away from any responsibility. Which I have to be quite firm on that it’s his responsibility untill proved otherwise.

If his garage comes back with anything I disagree with or if he asks me to pay for anything. I’ll at first threaten an independent DEKRA assessment, followed by small claims to recover any costs if it goes my way. If he still doesnt budge then I’ll book one in.

At the moment he has both my cash and the car. I didn’t tell him I took photos of the damage (as did the Aà) so if he replaces the engine mount and blames a half chewed new belt (ie Ware and tear) I’m covered.

You can’t get wear and tear on a new belt. They’re designed to last many years, and tens of thousands of miles, exactly how long depends on the engine. The service schedule will detail the intervals, if he goes down that route that’ll be an excellent argument in your favour.

Look at this on HonestJohn – basically within six months of purchase the dealer is responsible. No ifs, no get out. Just move quickly to court and don’t take no seems to be the standard answer.

Quick update…..

The car has been at a garage (his mates) for over a week – they were fitting it in between jobs just to provide a diagnosis. As the dealer I bought it from is on holiday until next Friday I’m in no hurry, as nothing will be resolved until then.

Had a call from the garage yesterday who confirmed it was an engine mount bolt that failed, causing the engine to move and slowly push into the timing belt, slowly shreading about 1/2 of it. So (although he didnt say this, not wanting to point the finger at his mate) it 100% the dealers issue.

So when the dealer returns from holiday he’ll have to get it either repaired or if the engine is blown I’ll suggest a refund as it may end up cheaper for him in the long run. The head hasn’t been off yet as it’s now down to the dealer to instruct and I don’t want to start instructing the garage to do any work, as I’ll have to take ownership then.

My main worry has been that his ‘garage mate’ will back him up and say it was my issue, but he even suggested on the phone that I could get a DEKRA report on the car if needed which should confirm in writing his thoughts, but this isn’t something he could provide. The garage are quite a large commercial outfit (well know in the area as being good) so I’m happy for them to do any work – again a worry was it’d be a small 1 man out fit not up to the job of a possible engine replacement .

Again confusing your rights under consumer legislation and a “warranty”

Under consumer legislation the vehicle must be of satisfactory standard and fit for purpose.  This one clearly wasn’t so its the dealers responsibility to sort it out.  Nothing to do with any after market warranty.  check the which pages for details

https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/consumer-rights-act

This ^^  The warranty provides additional protection on what the CRA already gives you, it’s not a replacement for it.  Buying from a dealer, it has to be as described / fit for purpose / of satisfactory quality as TJ says.

In the first six months you’re entitled to a repair / replacement of any fault you believe to have been inherent when you bought it – which seems pretty clear in this case.  Of note here is that it’s down to the dealer to prove that it wasn’t present, not for you to prove that it was.  If for any reason it can’t be repaired / replaced you’re then entitled to a refund, but you have to give them a chance to make good first.

As I think has been touched on, don’t get caught up in the specifics of the warranty, its just a way for the dealer to divert attention from the fact the vehicle was supplied with a fault.  You’re not claiming under the worthless warranty, you are requesting repair or replacement as the car is not fit for purpose.

Last time I bought a car from a dealer I offered to forfeit his ‘platinum with sparkles’ warranty in return for some movement on the price.  They refused (but did call me up to negotiate the price when I didn’t come back before closing time) but they still included the warranty which I suspect proves their cost of the warranty is all of about £9.99. I’ve also had one that was void as soon as I left the garage as the car had no paperwork for it’s first service, and one that excluded all electrical faults/wiring which isn’t very ‘platinum with sparkles’ coverage!

Ok, update.

The dealer came back from his holiday on Monday, but its taken until today to get hold of him (phone rang out and went to a full inbox). 1St phone call this morning he kept putting the responsibility to me, being as nice as he could saying it’ll be repaired at trade rates etc. Unfortunately I had to end the call early as my business for busy and I had to go.

2nd call this afternoon I basically just laid down my position, stated consumer rights 2015 ect. And his tone changed dramatically to ‘youve made the wrong decision there mate’… He followed that up with ‘ you’ll now need to prove that the fault was there when you bought the car which is impossible!’. Unfortunately for him he has to prove this and I told him as much, he flustered for a few seconds and said he had to go as had a customer and said he’d call back and hung up.

No call back yet……

Just move now to legal – he is going to try and duck it.

Write and demand a return of the car and refund.

Don’t mess around, be black and white.

Unfortunately I can’t demand a refund only a repair.

It’ll go down the legal route if he explicitly denies responsibility of repair. Pretty much garrenteed a win as he has to prove the fault with the car was directly caused by myself or was due to expected Ware and tare of the vehicle (an engine mount should last the life of the vehicle if correctly monitored/maintained).

Next step is to call him back tomorrow to see if he’s still prepared to fight. Then start issuing paperwork and getting an independent DEKRA assessment, also contact the garage where it’s currently stored to see if they mind holding onto it, I don’t want a counter fee for storage costs. I may have to get it towed back to mine or another garage.

You don’t have to prove that the fault was there when you bought it, only that the vehicle was reasonably fit for purpose.

Which, if a bolt failed, it wasn’t.

And his tone changed dramatically to ‘youve made the wrong decision there mate’…

I’m rather fond of the question, “just so we’re absolutely clear, can you confirm that you’re refusing to honour my statutory rights?”

Start documenting everything.  Timeline of events, what happened, what was said and when.  I’d also be inclined to insist on communication by letter only then you’ve got a record of events.

Name and shame?

And his tone changed dramatically to ‘youve made the wrong decision there mate’…

Oh yeah, and remind him it’s “sir,” not “mate.”

Unfortunately I can’t demand a refund only a repair.

Sure?

https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/faq/consumer-rights/

Sure?

Unfortunately, yes. It was a used car and it’s after the 30day “I’ll have my money back” stage.

I think there is a slight misunderstanding of your statutory rights here.

S9 of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 provides that goods must be of satisfactory quality. What constitutes satisfactory quality includes (but is not limited to) the factors set out at s9(3):
<p class=”LegClearFix LegP3Container”><span id=”section-9-3-a” class=”LegDS LegLHS LegP3No”>(a)</span><span class=”LegDS LegRHS LegP3Text”>fitness for all the purposes for which goods of that kind are usually supplied;</span></p>
<p class=”LegClearFix LegP3Container”><span id=”section-9-3-b” class=”LegDS LegLHS LegP3No”>(b)</span><span class=”LegDS LegRHS LegP3Text”>appearance and finish;</span></p>
<p class=”LegClearFix LegP3Container”><span id=”section-9-3-c” class=”LegDS LegLHS LegP3No”>(c)</span><span class=”LegDS LegRHS LegP3Text”>freedom from minor defects;</span></p>
<p class=”LegClearFix LegP3Container”><span id=”section-9-3-d” class=”LegDS LegLHS LegP3No”>(d)</span><span class=”LegDS LegRHS LegP3Text”>safety;</span></p>
<p class=”LegClearFix LegP3Container”><span id=”section-9-3-e” class=”LegDS LegLHS LegP3No”>(e)</span><span class=”LegDS LegRHS LegP3Text”>durability.</span></p>

Those rights are not limited to 30 days – in effect they subsist for the life of the item, but the longer you have had it, the more difficult it will be to say it was not of satisfactory quality.

You also have to draw a distinction between small, low-value items, and larger, more expensive items. I would expect a £20,000 car to last much longer than a £50 lawnmower, for example.

I would say that if the top mount failed within six weeks of purchase, then the vehicle was not of satisfactory quality.

If the trader is refusing to repair at his own expense (as required by s23) then it is arguable that repair is impossible and you are therefore entitled to a full refund.

I had similar many years ago with a Peugeot 205 gti that turned out to be two cars are an engine from a third. Took the dealer to court after the usual pre dance and won a nice amount but the dealer had several claims against him so he just closed that business and started another, same premises, staff etc slightly different name.

I would get get the car back, have a new cam belt and mount fitted then claim against the stealer.

id go with the get it fixed and try and reclaim costs option.

I’d not. Not if the engine has been rattling around loose.

All the ancillaries will be at risk of either having shit in them, or having suffered damage when the engine bounced off the inside of the engine bay.

Not 100% on the layout of a Touran, but you’ve got AC, Alternator, Gear linkages, Radiator, oil coolers (more than one?) Exhaust, Turbo, fuel system. They are all well wedged in there. Any one of them could be damaged and/or fail spectacularly in the next few months. Engine can move quite a way with an engine mount off. And it can move quite vigorously.

Also, most modern engines are ‘interference’ design, so the pistons and valves occupy the same space at differnet points in each engine revolution.

If the cambelt lets go/jumps then you get pistons meeting valves and all the bad things associated with that…

If you need an engineer use ACE

Automotive consulting engineers Bradford.  Used them in a previous life when doing warranty stuff

Also, most modern engines are ‘interference’ design, so the pistons and valves occupy the same space at differnet points in each engine revolution.

He said earlier that the belt was still *just* in place. And hadn’t skipped. Minimal risk of interference issues.

Just to give you an idea.

Don’t know how many mounts the Touran has (could be 3, 4 or 5, depending on VWs strategy). The Ka in the video only has about 4Nm of torque, a nice spacious engine bay and virtually no ancilliaries compared to a modern turbo diesel in a modern car.

Unfortunately, without taking out a loan/credit I can’t afford to do the repair (even at trade costs like the dealer was offering). So it’ll be a fight in the courts. A bit of digging on FB last night and it seem his Web site and trading site was setup around a year ago so either he’s unaware of consumer rights or he’s just playing blind.

I run a shop so my main issue is getting the time to phone him again (these posts are written between customers).

At best the repair would be, cam belt, engine mount and fix the clutch/gearbox issue. When the engine shifted (initial big bang!) the clutch went to the floor so there is certainly additional issues there.

Next to do is phone him up again, get him to confirm he won’t repair at his cost. Then phone garage where it’s currently stored,  get a DEKRA report so I know what all the issues are and issue court documents.

Just tried phoning – got through to the full answer phone.

Might be worth while finding out if the engine mount bolts were replaced when it was removed to change the timing, on most vws these are a replaceable item due to being torqued and then angle stretched.

Ok…….

Looks like it’s going to court.

Just spoke to tge dealer , he’s still refusing that there was an existing fault on the vehicle. Still think it hit something hard enough to cause the mount to fail (bare in mind it faied when I was doing about 10mph in slow traffic on a smooth A road).

Kept threatening he has a legal team to back him up and it won’t get as far as court….. Suggested I spoke to a solicitor etc.

So I’ve phoned the garage where it’s currently stored, the guy on the phone was a bit shocked TBH when I explained the situation. There phoning back in the morning to see if I need to shift the car before a DEKRA report is done. Luckily I’ve two mates with trailers and I’ve a car park to store the car.

Good luck monkeyboy. If theirs one person I’ve never got on with it’s a car salesman/dealer