[Closed] 2018 Road Racing

Battling it out for pride in the points black hole tomorrow! I can't race again until mid Jan so I'm keen to keep my eye in.
There's only 16 pre-entered but hopefully a few more will brave it?
Forecast is good- overcast with light winds and plenty far above freezing to need any winter kit 😆

Goals for the year are 12 points perhaps with a win along the way??
Goals for tomorrow are just to test my fitness and find my current limiters to add a bit of focus to my training.

I still have outdoors aspiration but currently know I'm too slow and too fat to do anything other than get dropped too early to enjoy it.

If there's a thruxton series next year I'd like to try a race if I can get my fitness up and weight down. Hillingdon, not that bothered about.

Win a vets race, podium a national (Masters, LVRC, TLI)

Regain 2nd perhaps, not too fussed on this but will push on if things are heading in the right direction.

Taking some time off from racing due to a baby arriving soon. A bit jealous of the winter stuff you guys have but it's a bit too icy up here for any of that.

Did my first ever TTs (2x10miles) this year

Plan to do a few more of those and maybe at least 1 road race, prob thruxton as it's pretty close to me - see you there weeksy !

Nathb. Have a look at Southborough wheelers. I think they have a pretty active TT scene and lots of group rides setting out from the Velo house in Tun Wells.

Retain second cat at a rate of greater than one point per race would be nice. Not racing today as I've been wobbly all week. Back next week for the E12 points harvest 😀

Other TT objectives are to race the National 24hr, beat my 12hr (267mi) and contest the BBAR - which means racing a 50 and a 100. Oh and try not to finish last in every bunch sprint I've been in.

Oh and try not to finish last in every bunch sprint I've been in.

Get into a break with me, last place in the sprint is always mine!!

rollindoughnut
Nathb. Have a look at Southborough wheelers. I think they have a pretty active TT scene and lots of group rides setting out from the Velo house in Tun Wells.

Yeah I was stealing their GPX routes the other week 😆

Lucky Mocca and Tiffin consumed, nearly time to find my number and start warming up.

If there's a thruxton series next year I'd like to try a race

You do realise you cant ride your Ducati dont you???

I've been in the breaks. And then seen them from the rear. I think chicken legs here needs to hit the gym not the bike! And it didn't matter whether the race was a 3/4, 3, 2/3 or an E123, or our club Champs! The threshold stuff looks OK, but the power profile is definitely long-distance tester.

I’m just going to leave this here....

[img] [/img]

Before the elbow gestapo start moaning, I was waiting for them to catch me back up 😆

Link to all the okay pics, the rest were terrible (water on lens): https://imgur.com/a/ZqlNu

For me this sums up CH’s journey:
[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

12 months ago this would have been the field about to lap him!!!!

P.s. Elbows bent:
[img] [/img]

Cheers Nath! And thanks for coming.

Not much to say really. Sat on or near the front all race and followed most moves. Then I countered hard and got a big gap. And waited. And waited. I considered going on but didn't realise a) how far I'd got away and b) how slow the rest of the race would be.
Nothing much happened after that, just covered a few moves and tried once more but sat up when I realised I was towing everyone.
Dropped back purposefully from 2nd to about 5th with two to go and sprinted fairly well but not properly opened out and finished 8th.

It's funny how the guys tapping out 320w in warm up are not always the threat they appear. Riding standard was ok but I was pleased not to touch my brakes once!

314w weighted and 280 odd average so a good session.

I'm excited for 2018 now 🙂

[img] [/img]

Opened the pipes a few times anyway 🙂

Ha:
[img] [/img]

And that includes my last KISS race https://www.strava.com/activities/1278232183 !!

At least 4 months away from what will be my 2018 season! Winter training at the moment!

That's a fantastic effort! Next time, don't look back, press on until you either blow up or win!

Thank you TiRed! I am full of regret. HR was up there but I could have done a few more laps with hindsight. I was already weighing up the next move instead of going all out.

I thought FullGas did a great job- it was all pretty slick!

LVRC and perhaps some hilly BC races. Not going near any flat BC road races or crits after last years carnage!

I lost a safety pin somewhere which was costing me watts 😀

This was the big breakaway effort:

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Practically a TT position 😀

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Chuckling to Nath before I got caught:

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No fear up the inside:

[img] [/img]

Thanks to Frankie Snell aged 14 for the pics 🙂

Don't regret, just learn for the next one. You have to be prepared to lose a race to win it. If more 4th Cats followed that maxim, the racing would be at a much higher level.

Should be back training this week and racing number two onwards.

Yeah, trying to draw on the positives, it was timed to perfection. Several guys had attacked and countered each other and everyone was in need of recovery. They were also not great through Brian's so that was where I went.
The guy with the orange socks had been the biggest threat but in that pic above you can see he was sitting in recovering.

It was just a bit scary out in front in the wind 😆

Something to beast myself with in training until Jan I guess 😀

Getting away is a big milestone. Now get used to it! Two riders is all it takes in 4th cat based on that outing, you'll get those 12 points this season.

@crosshair: how do you find those prime wheels? Are they clinchers or tubs you have? Thinking they may be tub wheelset of choice for cx if I can save enough before next season, seem outstanding value and tub wheelset about 1250g

Now disks are allowed I might give a couple of races a go next spring/ summer on cx bike as I don't think there will be enough xc races close to keep me interested

These are just clinchers ferals but I'm pleased with them. They were second hand and arrived nice and true. The hubs are great too- run for ages when spun compared to my Shimano ones.
Only downside is breaking performance but better pads should sort that. (I did order some but they sent normal ones by mistake and I haven't swapped them yet).

They are my first carbon wheels so not much to compare with mind you....

As CH was chuckling at me I was shouting to him (all be it not loud enough it appears) to get his head down and stick at threshold. He had a HUGE gap!

I'm thinking of getting some carbon disc clinchers for my commuter, that will no longer be used for commuting soon. As always I'll be looking to the East: [url= https://tinyurl.com/ydfk6owp ]CHINESE WHEELS[/url] (They're much cheaper via their app)

These threads always seem to depress me a little.

5w/kg ftp to get started in cat 4?

-_-

Cheers crosshair - I read hubs are novatech.

Nath, even though the crc are just rebadged Chinese (I assume) I'm too cautious too buy direct

I'd be too cautious to install an app from aliexpress! Probably paranoid though.

continuity - Member
These threads always seem to depress me a little.
5w/kg ftp to get started in cat 4?

(and I'd guess that a good sprint may be far more useful in flattish races - says the non-racer 😳 )

These threads always seem to depress me a little.

5w/kg ftp to get started in cat 4?

Doesn't seem likely. Depends on the course and your ability to race. My zwift ftp puts me at about 330W 4.5W/kg. I'm more than comfortable in a 3/4 able to chase down people and make decisive moves (I've won a race etc.) . Happy in a 2/3/4 but need to think a bit more about where I use my energy and can't just chase everything on my own.

To get round in a 3/4 you just need a bit of practice. You can hide in the bunch relatively easy if you know what you are doing and don't get in the wind too much. I'd have thought a good smart racer with 5w/kg would be looking to win 2/3/4s

@Continuity - where are you seeing 5w/kg in this thread? And depends how long for, doesn't it.

Am I missing something?

@continuity - No, I started at like 4.5w/kg in my first race, but that was without any proper training. I did turn up believing I had 5w/kg though as my turbo trainer had lied to me 😆

@ferrals - Just got to do research into the supplier, most of these companies are trying to make a brand in their own rights. I can speak from experience my customer service support with two different Chinese suppliers has been WAYY better than PlanetX 😆 Just avoid any company that is making knock offs, these are the ones that give the reputable ones a bad name. Easy to spot as they will have have Cervelo/Pinarello branded bikes in their store.

But yeah even at 4.5-5w/kg I couldn't race properly as didn't trust my fellow cyclists so was often out in the wind. CH made a term for this called "Nathing" haha. I got slightly more trusting as the season progressed though, I do have the ability to ride in a pack - TiRed tested this out on me the other day, but I trust him 😆

Continuity- w/kg has lots of flaws as a comparison. The Trainerroad podcast guys analogy is a good one so I'll bastardise it a bit- FTP is your entry fee to the party. But your shorter duration power profiles are your spending money at the bar 😉

You can sit in the bunch at less than 200w. Closest I've got to that was about 220w at Thruxton. Then you just need enough juice to follow the occasional burst.

Hillingdon Cat 4 attracts strong racers it seems to me- I've Strava stalked loads of people's races and 1300w (peak) sprints are regular occurrences.

I've made hard work of my first year I think. W/kg have gone from 3.2 to 3.7 and my 5s - 5min powers have gone through the roof. My biggest limiter I think was a stubborn refusal not to just sit in and bottling the Bunch sprints.
I always have to be at work the next day so every time I'm able to drive myself home is like ten points to me. But on the flip side, I've only been down once despite witnessing around 15 crashes.

It's almost impossible to quantify how well anyone will do from their stats alone. Just try it if you want- nobody cares how shit you are or aren't no matter how many 1500 word essays you write about it 😆

Oops.

Just been doing some 'shoulda woulda coulda' maths and my hunch is that I needed to ride at 106% ftp for 16minutes to have stayed away!
And my Normalised Power at that moment was already 105% ftp with a HR above Threshold.

Don't feel quite as bad now....

Edit- a lap later would have been TiRed's classic '6 laps to go' attack and the maths would have been way more in my favour.

I'm still a bit taken aback.

4.5w/kg untrained 20min ftp?

Thst's on a similar level to someone saying "I deadlift 250kg for reps untrained, y'know, I just went to the gym for the first time" It's in a similar ballpark. Or...I went to the climbing gym for the first time and flashed a f7b. Coggan's power tables puts 4.5w/kg in the top end Cat 2 territory, which is several years of training for most people.

https://cyclingtips.com/2017/06/just-how-good-are-male-pro-road-cyclists/

Another reference that puts it into perspective.

I guess what' I'm saying is when you say untrained a bit of me suspects what you're actually saying is "i've done a load of training but before my first structured training programme that is what I put out".

I'm very happy to be wrong and if you just put out 4.5w/kg casually knocking about as an unfit adult male you should be looking at a pro contract in a year or two - and moreover I wish you the very best of luck!

Apologies if that sounds too rude or cynical.

I started having ridden a bit but never trained at all properly at about 3w/kg and after 3 years am now at about 4.6w/kg.

Got my 3rd cat in my first season in crits and since then have been searching to do better in open road races.

So Continuity - I think/hope you're right, people don't just turn up with 4.5w/kg unless they're on their way to the top somewhat rapidly. You can sit in the bunch with a lot less for sure if it's not hilly. And you might have a big sprint at the end too.

And I'm sure people know this, but FTP and 20min power are very different things.

I'm sure Nath will reply in due course but I think you'll find Nath did little more than a few thousand miles unstructured road riding for a couple of years beforehand. Perhaps an odd flying lap of Richmond Park.
Getting his body fat down to such a low level probably helped too- he created the right physique.
But yes, as per his original thread, he pretty much had 4.5w/kg ftp off the bat. (336w for 20 mins @ 71kg if I remember rightly??)
And he's stubborn enough that I have no doubt he could have held 320 for 60 minutes had he wanted to 😆

You two sound like the bitter professor off of Good Will Hunting 😆

Nath talking about 4.5w/kg:

I also wonder about Coggans chart. The 3 Zwift Acadamy finalists were all under 23 and all had 6w/kg ftp's.
Ollie Jones, the winner, has a 450w ftp aged 21.

Exactly what CH said.

In 2013 I was 95-100kg and ridiculously unfit. I bought a Hardtail and started doing a few rides, moved to London and it got pretty much shelved in 2014 until September when I bought a road bike. From Sept 14 to October 16 I just rode and ran around, mainly richmond park, started commuting, did a couple of sportives and also started Zwifting. In Oct 16, starting my previous thread, I was now around 70kg (having previous been down to 65kg) and placed an order for a Chinese carbon race bike. Believing my Tacx trainers 5.0w/kg to be correct in Dec 16 I turned up to Hillingdon for my first race, and surprising didn’t win - although I attacked 5/6 times for fun. In Jan 17 I rented a power meter and found I had 4.5w/kg 😆 But I got my third cat by Feb 17? and got a sponsor - who supplies me (well CH actually haha) with nutrition and kit. Did some highly structured training in summer and got to 5w/kg and then got ill. I’m now doing a Ketosis diet so probably back to 4-4.4w/kg with 0 top end 😆

Here’s the numbers to put it in context:
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There’s pics of fat me vs me at the moment etc on here: https://www.instagram.com/nath_gb/

That's just astounding Nath, honestly... absolutely astounding. I do think you're quite unusual though that you've gone from Zero to Hero with not a massive amount of time and effort (comparatively of course).

So you lost 30 kg in 2-3y with training but not bike specific training.

Then you did 2 years of sportives, zwift and unstructured riding/training.

Oct 16-Jan 17 you started training harder on the bike.

Then Jan 17 you tested at 4.5 for 20.

Sounds like good progress - and I congratulate you on your transformation - it's great to see people working hard and getting fit. I wasn't far off the mark though - that's a 6 year progression from "unfit" to 4.5w/kg - not "untrained 4.5w/kg" =].

Maybe I am bitter CH? Or maybe I have a 6w/kg ftp? Who would know - I'm not dick measuring I'm just interested in training in general.

Happy racing and I hope I have more to contribute to this thread next year!

I didn't say you were bitter, just that was the tone of the posts but then text is pretty hard to interpret sometimes 🙂

I think Nath has done awesomely well on the mileage he's put in!

what time period are you generating 5 W/kg for? Is that based on FTP? i.e. 95% of your 20 minute average?

I had been pretty much exclusively a commuter for 15 years (100 miles a week) until last spring when I started 'training' in the loosest sense for a London to Paris 24 hour ride. As a result, now doing more weekend rides, park laps and wattbike riding and inevitably starting to feel the competitive urge. like Nath, lost a bit of weight, 95 ish down to 83 today. realistically another 2 or 3 to go.

Starting to think about having a go down at Hillingdon since I live in west london but I'll be 39 at my next birthday so I'm wondering about sticking to training for now and holding out till the vets.

FTP tests so far have varied wildly from 3.1 to 4.5 w/kg more to do with the different bikes than my performance I think - lower end more realistic. Today's session was 15 intervals of 30 seconds between 550 and 650 watts followed by 1.5 to 2 mins rest depending on now much the power was dropping.

Posting this partly as a reminder/motivation for myself. Have enjoyed nath, CH and weeksy etc progress and TiRed's sage advice so far!

Give it a go Lodger- it's the best way to find out 🙂

It's so hard to quantify what's needed. My best power for a whole race is still the first one where I got lapped four times 😆

Without repeating myself too much- I love it! It's literally the only thing I do where I'm truly in the moment. For 50-80 minutes, I physically can't think about anything else.

@continuity how did you get “6 years from unfit to 4.5w/kg” when nath started his journey in 2013 or did i miss something along with math lessons?

Starting to think about having a go down at Hillingdon since I live in west london but I'll be 39 at my next birthday so I'm wondering about sticking to training for now and holding out till the vets.

Pretty much where I started (except I've never been over 75 kg). Started at 45, so already midway through the masters 40-50 class, and now riding 50+ (and 2nd cat). The answer is to ride with a club for a while to hone those group riding skills, then race Hillingdon over the Winter Series. You can of course just turn up and 'av a go, but for that you need a sense of perspective and some idea of group riding.

Oh and you'll get dropped on your first outing... We all do unless you have those 4.5 W/kg - I definitely did not!

The vets series the following summer was the making of me. It's E1234 (we have at least one E btw and a couple of 1's), and the riding standard is exemplary - OR ELSE!

I don't think Nathb's story is that startling. I know two lads who went from overweight to absolute beasts on the bike. I think it's because their legs are used to carting around that extra weight, and are very strong. One guy is easily knocking Out 5 w/kg. Obviously gifted as well, but his first season, with little structured training and he was flying.

Goals for me in 2018, after targeting and gettin cat 3 last year, more structure, more road, no crits. And to retain my club road racing trophy...

For balance, w/kg is an useful metric but you can do very well on relatively modest numbers (at least going by the numbers being posted on this thread!) Friends of mine are now cat 2, win road races in 3/4, others regularly podium in XC events (winning one of the big 12 hr events this year), all around the 3.5 w/kg mark. Much down to experience and specificity of training.

I don't think Nathb's story is that startling. I know two lads who went from overweight to absolute beasts on the bike.

It's impressive though - always good to see what a bit of commitment and practice will get you.

A guy I used to race with - he was mid-pack at best in Sport MTB - spent an entire winter doing couriering and his mileage rocketed. The following year he was top 10 every single time in Sport.

Same sort of thing applies to road racing with the exception that power does not always win the race, it's quite easy for a tactically smart but weaker person to beat a more powerful but less tactically aware rider.

I think that's what's so engaging about it for me. Ok so I've been playing chess so far with just a couple of Pawns at my disposal, but you know if you deploy them properly you can still do something with them. And that's enough of a hook to keep me going back whilst I try and improve my pieces as it were.
Nath started with a Queen but it still took him a few goes to learn how to use her 😉

I’m not that startling, don’t worry 😆

But thanks for the kind words all 🙂

My journey started Sept 14 with my first road bike purchase, unfortunately I was about 75kg by then through diet so couldn’t convert all that leg fat into muscle lol.

My first ever structured training session was summer 17, after my third cat, and I didn’t really race after getting my third due to personal circumstances. So it was all a bit wasted.

Please do share your stories though, this thread isn’t all about my story!

CH - I don’t think I ever played a decent game with her 😆

Yeah you rode tactically at Abingdon a couple of times. Heck, you even drafted in the bunch 😆

He sat at the back with me once, giving me the "get on my wheel" signal.

I looked at him and said "I'm ok mate"

3 corners later, I missed a kick and was history!

Yeah, I don't think it's bitter/negative comments from Continuity or myself.....It was more that I don't think 4.5w/kg is the norm....Or maybe it is the norm and that's why I'm taking a battering most weeks. The bar for even the lowest tier of road racing can seem very high but that's just the way it is.

Some people are luckier than others with their natural athletic ability and how they respond to training, some people are better natural racers but less fit. And there are people everywhere in between.

And that's not moaning, I enjoy working hard in training, I've never been massively gifted at sport but in the grand scheme of things there will be people outside any level of competitive sport who would love to get to even a basic level of fitness. So I consider myself pretty lucky to be currently fit and healthy and to be able to contemplate improving rather than just getting there in the first place.

win road races in 3/4,

4.5 Watts/kg won't win you a race - trust me I know the hard way. It books you a spectator's ticket to the back of the bunch sprint. What will win you the race is 20 Watts/kg for the last 300 m. Oh if only - I could have been a contender...

4.5 Watts/kg won't win you a race - trust me I know the hard way. It books you a spectator's ticket to the back of the bunch sprint. What will win you the race is 20 Watts/kg for the last 300 m. Oh if only - I could have been a contender...

Yes, that's the point of the post really. No point training for a high 60MP if what wins you a race is a high 30 second sprint effort (or repeated 10 second over threshold efforts with short recoveries like XC or CX.) People I mentioned are good at what's needed to win at their chosen disciplines, which isn't a high FTP.

Yeah I think that's a good post mtbtomo. It would be easy to look at other people and wonder what the point is but for me, I knew I wanted to be racing! Out there mixing it for an hour of immersion every week. So everything else ceased to matter. I could hang with the bunch and I had an outside chance of points so crack on 🙂

If I'd had more watts at my disposal and scored 12 points quickly, it wouldn't have made any real difference. I'd have been doing the same 3/4 race at Hillingdon and clinging on to the 2/3's at Thruxton for dear life 😉

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/road/article/20171205-road-Tour-de-Yorkshire-and-Asda-Women%E2%80%99s-Tour-de-Yorkshire-routes-announced-for-2018-0

Oh on paper I should be a cat 1/2, I had sprinting power and long drawn out power, hell on Zwift I’m classified as an elite rider...

[b]But[/b] I never cracked the ability to translate it into a win on a real life race circuit, this is the point I (and CH was kindly) trying to make. I genuinely [b]suck[/b] at racing 😆 CH will attest to the amount of times I used to do sprint practice on the way home from Hillingdon as I still had loads of unspent energy left.

This is not a willy waving post, I hope it doesn’t come across that way!

I didn't say you suck! You just haven't had to test yourself properly irl. The 3/4's at Hillingdon were sketchy this season so I don't blame you for not performing there. You should have stuck at the E,1,2,3's 🙂

Just entered the 3/4 race on the 23rd. Last week's didn't look much quicker or aggressive than the 4ths only so I quite fancy it.

Training wise, it's a good slot. I'll be at the end of my first rest week from Sweetspot Base 1.

In terms of expectations, I'll keep an open mind. If ten point hungry 3's turn up then I've got little chance anyway.

Having a good handle on my numbers is a double edged sword and makes me realise how few my options are still.
So my three tactics will be-
a) watch who's attacking and try and find another guy for a long range punt.
b) try and repeat my previous attack but close enough to the finish to hold it. The most I can manage at a fast enough speed is around 10-15minutes I think.
c) unleash a proper sprint!

Of course, the more attempts I have at option 'a', the less energy I'll have for 'b' and likewise for 'c'.
A cold or wet day with everybody hating life and sat cozy in the bunch could work in my favour but the stronger the wind, the closer to the finish option 'b' has to become!

It's so hard to commit when you know the sprint finish is the odds on favourite outcome but these winter races have to be as good a time as any to be brave.

Well I rode the second E123 Full Gas at Hillingdon. About 25 riders on the line, so a much smaller turnout than previous years. And younger too. A few vets, but not many!

Initial pace was brutal, I tried to stay with an attack, did huge amounts of work but hung in. After 25 min I was flagging so near the back recovering. Then on the bends the ride in front leaves a huge gap of three bike lengths, I can't get around him, the last two back-markers get past and bridge, and me and the wall are out the back 🙁 . Dropped. Not been dropped for an age in a circuit race of any form.

Paced myself at 2:20 - 2:25 laps (I was dead), and caught some ladies, then a few of the stragglers off the bunch. Lapped and joined at the back for the last 20 minutes. Didn't contest the main bunch sprint, but did contest the lapped riders foursome. Second in that.

Hard ride - Sufferscore of +100 for one hour isn't a bad workout. Must not work so hard at the start of the race - as if!

I think it's the points that deter riders - the third cats are trying to maximise their gains, so 3/4 was rammed. The E123 was fast and smooth. Think I may be away on the 23rd.

There is a race at Cyclopark (Gravesend) this Saturday, low E12 entries so far. And of course Crossmas at Berkhamstead on Sunday.

Wow! Sounds brutal indeed!! All part of the gamble though isn't it, and why most races are so negative.

Nothing ventured nothing gained and a straight forward cruise around in the bunch may have got you a 'better' finish but at the expense of any fun and excitement 🙂

Grrr! I was excited about tomorrow but am on the brink of a cold. I ditched all my riding this week in an attempt to shake it off and I haven't got any worse.
I guess I'll have to see what the morning brings but I'm all set up ready to go.

Best of luck CH.Shall set some time aside tomorrow to read the report 😉

😆 I would probably have played it safe and stayed home were it not my last chance to race until February. As it is, I need some fuel for the January training fire!

Good luck CH, hopefully the other riders have over indulged allowing you to coast to victory.

Just had a browse and there are lots of points hungry 3rd Cats entered so it's purely a training race today for me I think.

Good luck today. I'm at the in-laws for an early Christmas lunch and bike fitting a nephew. And yes, the 3/4 races look pretty keen!

Bloody TCC boys shutting everything down 🙄 😉

Luckily I launched the winning break early on and then got away myself with one to go and got 5th 😆

Sooooooooo pleased 🙂

Bloody good work there CH 🙂

That's half a report, let's have the rest!