I also wonder about Coggans chart. The 3 Zwift Acadamy finalists were all under 23 and all had 6w/kg ftp's.
Ollie Jones, the winner, has a 450w ftp aged 21.
Exactly what CH said.
In 2013 I was 95-100kg and ridiculously unfit. I bought a Hardtail and started doing a few rides, moved to London and it got pretty much shelved in 2014 until September when I bought a road bike. From Sept 14 to October 16 I just rode and ran around, mainly richmond park, started commuting, did a couple of sportives and also started Zwifting. In Oct 16, starting my previous thread, I was now around 70kg (having previous been down to 65kg) and placed an order for a Chinese carbon race bike. Believing my Tacx trainers 5.0w/kg to be correct in Dec 16 I turned up to Hillingdon for my first race, and surprising didn’t win - although I attacked 5/6 times for fun. In Jan 17 I rented a power meter and found I had 4.5w/kg 😆 But I got my third cat by Feb 17? and got a sponsor - who supplies me (well CH actually haha) with nutrition and kit. Did some highly structured training in summer and got to 5w/kg and then got ill. I’m now doing a Ketosis diet so probably back to 4-4.4w/kg with 0 top end 😆
Here’s the numbers to put it in context:
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There’s pics of fat me vs me at the moment etc on here: https://www.instagram.com/nath_gb/
That's just astounding Nath, honestly... absolutely astounding. I do think you're quite unusual though that you've gone from Zero to Hero with not a massive amount of time and effort (comparatively of course).
So you lost 30 kg in 2-3y with training but not bike specific training.
Then you did 2 years of sportives, zwift and unstructured riding/training.
Oct 16-Jan 17 you started training harder on the bike.
Then Jan 17 you tested at 4.5 for 20.
Sounds like good progress - and I congratulate you on your transformation - it's great to see people working hard and getting fit. I wasn't far off the mark though - that's a 6 year progression from "unfit" to 4.5w/kg - not "untrained 4.5w/kg" =].
Maybe I am bitter CH? Or maybe I have a 6w/kg ftp? Who would know - I'm not dick measuring I'm just interested in training in general.
Happy racing and I hope I have more to contribute to this thread next year!
I didn't say you were bitter, just that was the tone of the posts but then text is pretty hard to interpret sometimes 🙂
I think Nath has done awesomely well on the mileage he's put in!
what time period are you generating 5 W/kg for? Is that based on FTP? i.e. 95% of your 20 minute average?
I had been pretty much exclusively a commuter for 15 years (100 miles a week) until last spring when I started 'training' in the loosest sense for a London to Paris 24 hour ride. As a result, now doing more weekend rides, park laps and wattbike riding and inevitably starting to feel the competitive urge. like Nath, lost a bit of weight, 95 ish down to 83 today. realistically another 2 or 3 to go.
Starting to think about having a go down at Hillingdon since I live in west london but I'll be 39 at my next birthday so I'm wondering about sticking to training for now and holding out till the vets.
FTP tests so far have varied wildly from 3.1 to 4.5 w/kg more to do with the different bikes than my performance I think - lower end more realistic. Today's session was 15 intervals of 30 seconds between 550 and 650 watts followed by 1.5 to 2 mins rest depending on now much the power was dropping.
Posting this partly as a reminder/motivation for myself. Have enjoyed nath, CH and weeksy etc progress and TiRed's sage advice so far!
Give it a go Lodger- it's the best way to find out 🙂
It's so hard to quantify what's needed. My best power for a whole race is still the first one where I got lapped four times 😆
Without repeating myself too much- I love it! It's literally the only thing I do where I'm truly in the moment. For 50-80 minutes, I physically can't think about anything else.
@continuity how did you get “6 years from unfit to 4.5w/kg” when nath started his journey in 2013 or did i miss something along with math lessons?
Starting to think about having a go down at Hillingdon since I live in west london but I'll be 39 at my next birthday so I'm wondering about sticking to training for now and holding out till the vets.
Pretty much where I started (except I've never been over 75 kg). Started at 45, so already midway through the masters 40-50 class, and now riding 50+ (and 2nd cat). The answer is to ride with a club for a while to hone those group riding skills, then race Hillingdon over the Winter Series. You can of course just turn up and 'av a go, but for that you need a sense of perspective and some idea of group riding.
Oh and you'll get dropped on your first outing... We all do unless you have those 4.5 W/kg - I definitely did not!
The vets series the following summer was the making of me. It's E1234 (we have at least one E btw and a couple of 1's), and the riding standard is exemplary - OR ELSE!
I don't think Nathb's story is that startling. I know two lads who went from overweight to absolute beasts on the bike. I think it's because their legs are used to carting around that extra weight, and are very strong. One guy is easily knocking Out 5 w/kg. Obviously gifted as well, but his first season, with little structured training and he was flying.
Goals for me in 2018, after targeting and gettin cat 3 last year, more structure, more road, no crits. And to retain my club road racing trophy...
For balance, w/kg is an useful metric but you can do very well on relatively modest numbers (at least going by the numbers being posted on this thread!) Friends of mine are now cat 2, win road races in 3/4, others regularly podium in XC events (winning one of the big 12 hr events this year), all around the 3.5 w/kg mark. Much down to experience and specificity of training.
I don't think Nathb's story is that startling. I know two lads who went from overweight to absolute beasts on the bike.
It's impressive though - always good to see what a bit of commitment and practice will get you.
A guy I used to race with - he was mid-pack at best in Sport MTB - spent an entire winter doing couriering and his mileage rocketed. The following year he was top 10 every single time in Sport.
Same sort of thing applies to road racing with the exception that power does not always win the race, it's quite easy for a tactically smart but weaker person to beat a more powerful but less tactically aware rider.
I think that's what's so engaging about it for me. Ok so I've been playing chess so far with just a couple of Pawns at my disposal, but you know if you deploy them properly you can still do something with them. And that's enough of a hook to keep me going back whilst I try and improve my pieces as it were.
Nath started with a Queen but it still took him a few goes to learn how to use her 😉
I’m not that startling, don’t worry 😆
But thanks for the kind words all 🙂
My journey started Sept 14 with my first road bike purchase, unfortunately I was about 75kg by then through diet so couldn’t convert all that leg fat into muscle lol.
My first ever structured training session was summer 17, after my third cat, and I didn’t really race after getting my third due to personal circumstances. So it was all a bit wasted.
Please do share your stories though, this thread isn’t all about my story!
CH - I don’t think I ever played a decent game with her 😆
Yeah you rode tactically at Abingdon a couple of times. Heck, you even drafted in the bunch 😆
He sat at the back with me once, giving me the "get on my wheel" signal.
I looked at him and said "I'm ok mate"
3 corners later, I missed a kick and was history!
Yeah, I don't think it's bitter/negative comments from Continuity or myself.....It was more that I don't think 4.5w/kg is the norm....Or maybe it is the norm and that's why I'm taking a battering most weeks. The bar for even the lowest tier of road racing can seem very high but that's just the way it is.
Some people are luckier than others with their natural athletic ability and how they respond to training, some people are better natural racers but less fit. And there are people everywhere in between.
And that's not moaning, I enjoy working hard in training, I've never been massively gifted at sport but in the grand scheme of things there will be people outside any level of competitive sport who would love to get to even a basic level of fitness. So I consider myself pretty lucky to be currently fit and healthy and to be able to contemplate improving rather than just getting there in the first place.
win road races in 3/4,
4.5 Watts/kg won't win you a race - trust me I know the hard way. It books you a spectator's ticket to the back of the bunch sprint. What will win you the race is 20 Watts/kg for the last 300 m. Oh if only - I could have been a contender...
4.5 Watts/kg won't win you a race - trust me I know the hard way. It books you a spectator's ticket to the back of the bunch sprint. What will win you the race is 20 Watts/kg for the last 300 m. Oh if only - I could have been a contender...
Yes, that's the point of the post really. No point training for a high 60MP if what wins you a race is a high 30 second sprint effort (or repeated 10 second over threshold efforts with short recoveries like XC or CX.) People I mentioned are good at what's needed to win at their chosen disciplines, which isn't a high FTP.
Yeah I think that's a good post mtbtomo. It would be easy to look at other people and wonder what the point is but for me, I knew I wanted to be racing! Out there mixing it for an hour of immersion every week. So everything else ceased to matter. I could hang with the bunch and I had an outside chance of points so crack on 🙂
If I'd had more watts at my disposal and scored 12 points quickly, it wouldn't have made any real difference. I'd have been doing the same 3/4 race at Hillingdon and clinging on to the 2/3's at Thruxton for dear life 😉
Oh on paper I should be a cat 1/2, I had sprinting power and long drawn out power, hell on Zwift I’m classified as an elite rider...
[b]But[/b] I never cracked the ability to translate it into a win on a real life race circuit, this is the point I (and CH was kindly) trying to make. I genuinely [b]suck[/b] at racing 😆 CH will attest to the amount of times I used to do sprint practice on the way home from Hillingdon as I still had loads of unspent energy left.
This is not a willy waving post, I hope it doesn’t come across that way!
I didn't say you suck! You just haven't had to test yourself properly irl. The 3/4's at Hillingdon were sketchy this season so I don't blame you for not performing there. You should have stuck at the E,1,2,3's 🙂
Just entered the 3/4 race on the 23rd. Last week's didn't look much quicker or aggressive than the 4ths only so I quite fancy it.
Training wise, it's a good slot. I'll be at the end of my first rest week from Sweetspot Base 1.
In terms of expectations, I'll keep an open mind. If ten point hungry 3's turn up then I've got little chance anyway.
Having a good handle on my numbers is a double edged sword and makes me realise how few my options are still.
So my three tactics will be-
a) watch who's attacking and try and find another guy for a long range punt.
b) try and repeat my previous attack but close enough to the finish to hold it. The most I can manage at a fast enough speed is around 10-15minutes I think.
c) unleash a proper sprint!
Of course, the more attempts I have at option 'a', the less energy I'll have for 'b' and likewise for 'c'.
A cold or wet day with everybody hating life and sat cozy in the bunch could work in my favour but the stronger the wind, the closer to the finish option 'b' has to become!
It's so hard to commit when you know the sprint finish is the odds on favourite outcome but these winter races have to be as good a time as any to be brave.
Well I rode the second E123 Full Gas at Hillingdon. About 25 riders on the line, so a much smaller turnout than previous years. And younger too. A few vets, but not many!
Initial pace was brutal, I tried to stay with an attack, did huge amounts of work but hung in. After 25 min I was flagging so near the back recovering. Then on the bends the ride in front leaves a huge gap of three bike lengths, I can't get around him, the last two back-markers get past and bridge, and me and the wall are out the back 🙁 . Dropped. Not been dropped for an age in a circuit race of any form.
Paced myself at 2:20 - 2:25 laps (I was dead), and caught some ladies, then a few of the stragglers off the bunch. Lapped and joined at the back for the last 20 minutes. Didn't contest the main bunch sprint, but did contest the lapped riders foursome. Second in that.
Hard ride - Sufferscore of +100 for one hour isn't a bad workout. Must not work so hard at the start of the race - as if!
I think it's the points that deter riders - the third cats are trying to maximise their gains, so 3/4 was rammed. The E123 was fast and smooth. Think I may be away on the 23rd.
There is a race at Cyclopark (Gravesend) this Saturday, low E12 entries so far. And of course Crossmas at Berkhamstead on Sunday.
Wow! Sounds brutal indeed!! All part of the gamble though isn't it, and why most races are so negative.
Nothing ventured nothing gained and a straight forward cruise around in the bunch may have got you a 'better' finish but at the expense of any fun and excitement 🙂
Grrr! I was excited about tomorrow but am on the brink of a cold. I ditched all my riding this week in an attempt to shake it off and I haven't got any worse.
I guess I'll have to see what the morning brings but I'm all set up ready to go.
Best of luck CH.Shall set some time aside tomorrow to read the report 😉
😆 I would probably have played it safe and stayed home were it not my last chance to race until February. As it is, I need some fuel for the January training fire!
Good luck CH, hopefully the other riders have over indulged allowing you to coast to victory.
Just had a browse and there are lots of points hungry 3rd Cats entered so it's purely a training race today for me I think.
Good luck today. I'm at the in-laws for an early Christmas lunch and bike fitting a nephew. And yes, the 3/4 races look pretty keen!
Bloody TCC boys shutting everything down 🙄 😉
Luckily I launched the winning break early on and then got away myself with one to go and got 5th 😆
Sooooooooo pleased 🙂
Bloody good work there CH 🙂
That's half a report, let's have the rest!
Patience dear boy!
In some ways, the timing for today was good! I finished the meaty part of Sweetspot Base 1 on Trainerroad last Sunday and this week was recovery week. However, I had been dodging a cold at work for the previous two weeks and it finally caught up with my wife and then inevitably, me.
I still wanted to race. This was my last chance until February so I wanted it in the bank to fuel my January training. I made the decision to not ride at all and tried to rest as much as work would allow.
Yesterday, I did the bare minimum in the morning and then spent all day chilling and worrying about whether to bother going. Weeksy and Joe both advised against and to be honest, I agreed with them.
But I had been working myself into a frenzy about it too. Every morning I was waking up earlier and earlier and I was craving the bike- a good sign I was hitting some form. Strava agreed and even though my fitness was no higher than the day before my last race, my form score was +5 points.
When I woke up this morning, I lay there and assessed how I felt. Rough was the answer! No better than yesterday but with some dizziness too. I ate breakfast and did the dogs and the morning air perked me up. Perhaps a stuffy day mainly indoors had not been ideal yesterday!
Oh what the heck, I would only end up doing tomorrows work today if I stayed here so I decided to go and give myself the option of bailing at any point.
I’m obviously in a good routine now what with all the practice I’ve had and was able to turn up, sign on and get out on the bike very much on autopilot. I set off with over thirty minutes to go and was surprised how late most people left warm up. I literally ambled around at <200w and only at 13:00 did I open up the legs down the straight. 26mph seemed to take about 500w with my coat on and I quickly put any thoughts of attacking out of my mind.
The Costa was kicking in by now and I went back to the car to ditch my jacket and put my arm warmers on. I felt ok! Not great but certainly not the worst I’ve felt pre-race.
The total entries were close to thirty I think with a strong contingent of 3’s. A couple of brand new racers were out too. I stand by what I said in the summer. 3/4 races are NOT good for beginners and they get sucked along way out of their comfort zone at times. It was much sketchier than the (albeit small field) Cat 4 only race the other week with a few shouts and one or two folks on the grass.
Channelling my off-bike frustration during the week, I read Matt Fitzgeralds “How bad do you want it?” book after all the publicity TR have been giving it. And one thing had given me hope. Whilst certainly not the same league as some of the examples (the lady with a tumour having her calf muscle removed and the guy with one arm) by a factor of about 10,000,000, the idea of ‘workarounds’ by your body had never the less inspired me that whilst I may not be fully fit and healthy, I would have to use every ‘workaround’ in my repertoire to gain an advantage.
I was actively trying not to brake in the bunch at all again but it was much harder than last time and I had to drag the front once or twice to avoid running into smaller guys on the descents. I also utilised tail-gunning at times to shorten the route and move up whilst coasting where ever possible.
So to the race! It started off dull. Boring in fact! I was sitting in around two thirds of the way back and it felt slow. Laps 5 and 6 were 23 and 24mph!
All this meant that the Cat 3 contingent were barely working and would be soon buggering off at pace. I decided to jump the gun and taking a few opportunities to coast to the front, it coincided with a couple of no-name but matching kit guys trying to do some kind of one / two. Crossing the Start line one of them was 30yards off the front and the other bridged then went over the top of him. This neatly coincided with me cruising down the sheltered side of the bunch. So I followed. As we approached Brians, they were already fizzling out so I countered over the top of them both up the hill and kept the power on until half way down the hill. Then I tried to recover whilst maintaining the speed. In some curious daydream, I had no idea what speed or watts or HR this was, I just thought “How bad do I want it?” and pressed on the pedals! (No, honestly, I did think that lol!)
As I reached the end of the start straight, I realised I had a gap. Bugger! Now what! This was my 5 lap to go plan, not my 5th lap plan!! Ah well, keep going but cruise a little. As I rounded Brian’s again, the whoosh of aero wheels could be heard and some optimistic chap shouted “UPUPUP!” to me and somehow, I found the energy to latch on to his wheel. Yes! Break away! Now we’re talking!
Two more guys were there behind me but I found myself having to pull past the clubhouse. Veering off and trying to latch on again, I realised I was out of my depth. Ah well, try and cling on. Nope! Not happening. With that, the winning break of 4 and a nice guy called Nick went up the road. Nick ended up coming back but the rest stayed away until the finish- great work by them!
The bunch came ripping past me. This was bad++. HR was heading towards max and I was literally seeing stars and feeling sick. DO NOT GET DROPPED was now my immediate concern. If the endorphins of a break make you feel invincible, the panic of realising your race could end right here makes you feel stupid! Stupid is as stupid does and I deserved to get dropped for my ridiculous attempt at playing with the big boys.
At that moment, if someone had held up a bottle of milkshake, I would have stopped and downed it and gladly gone home. I have never felt that bad on the bike. But I didn’t quite get dropped! I was ten yards off the back at times and only by taking short lines and moving up to sag back again was I able to cling on.
A tiny glimmer of hope appeared! This was going to have to slow down. As my HR crept down, so my expectations changed once more. From “survive this straight” it became “survive this lap” to “Hmmm, see how you feel at the end”.
Downing drink at every opportunity, I started to feel a bit more normal and after a few laps, consider options! Crazy! The break was holding steady at 30-40 seconds I reckon and at 40minutes in, I started to wonder if I could bridge. Even now, I’m too bad at maths to know how fast I would need to go to close the gap in time so I didn’t even bother trying to work it out, just lurked around waiting to see if a good launch-moment presented itself.
It didn’t! The others started to try and rally. One (Scottish?) guy from TCC (I was joking about them shutting things down!) tried to be a road captain and get all the non-TCC guys pulling. It was chaos.
As I reached the front, I got suckered into pulling rather than launching the attack I was considering but found I dropped everyone by accident! Twice! Hmmm- that’s worth knowing!
Three to go then and things slowed down. Two to go and things sped up! I considered a flier but the pace was too high. Nick decided it was his time so launched past the clubhouse and hard left on the main straight.
Once more, I found myself cruising down the sheltered side and what’s this? A gap on the right!!! The Bell literally spurs people into action so luckily, I went about 20m before it rang for us and gained some surprise. Right, guts or glory now, save nothing for the sprint! Don’t look back! Just head down and go for it.
Reaching Brian’s, I sensed a gap- crap! Attack the hill and still a gap- double crap! Feeling like junk but pressing on down the hill and still a gap!
Once more “How bad do you want it?” popped into mind and I buried myself. Onto the start straight and I still had a gap! Some dude on the bank was shouting “GOGOGO!” and I realised it was close. I couldn’t help but look back. Triple crap! There’s a swarm of angry racers launching their sprints. I have no idea how hard I was going, I could barely steer in a straight line. I just kept pushing on the pedals! However, I sensed I was clear and sat up over the line!
That was epic! I couldn’t believe there were only four in the break so I had to go and ask! Yes! 5th place! And very pleased with that!
One year ago pretty much to the day, my normalised Power was 300w and I got lapped twice! I joked to Weeksy and Joe that if my NP was 300 this year, I would expect to have won! Well it was 294 so that’s why I only got 5th lol!!!!
I bloody love your write ups!
When I read your numbers I think "hmmmm". Assuming my turbo is accurate I reckon I can manage 280 for 50 mins. So it all comes down to tactics/skills/technique. Obviously in my world it's the surges where I'd suffer most with flat power profile I seem to have. But I'm working on that, along with after Xmas working on weight, which using your numbers, means I could potentially hold a pack with you.
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Attack!!!!! Forget how cringeworthyly ridiculous your form looks 😆
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Punching above my weight in the winning break!
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**JUST** enough!!!
@ Weeksy- it's not about numbers. Or rather, it's about your numbers. How your numbers relate to your whole package of drafting, aero's, not braking, reading the race, giving yourself room to sag back etc etc is what decides if you hang or not.
You'd have hung the first six laps today and got dropped when they chased me down- exactly like my first 3/4 race when Nath attacked. Third cats attack, attack and attack whereas 4ths attack and then have a doughnut 😆
I was thinking more 4th for me anyway. Possibly Thruxton for the experience, although the hill worries me.
I need to get to Hillingdon with you fellas for some testing as you guys can ride how a bunch may do with surges and lulls etc to give me an indication in the real world what may or may not be viable.
28/29th if dry?
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Maximising your time in Z1 is as important as how many watts you can do for an hour 😉
(Yes, I'm a guru now 😆 )
I'm a Zwift god, I own the book on sitting in the bunch relaxing 😆
Oooh....I might be able to do 28th....!
