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I sit the other way and think you should set the correct weight and take the upgrade (if it happens) instead of sandbagging. The are loads of complaints about above power riders sandbagging, including on this thread. Riding with false weight is just another facet of this. Yeah it sucks being dropped and having to TT however you can avoid this to some extent by not doing races where the pens are separated. If found that it didn't take long before I could hang on for a little longer, then occasionally get to the end with the lead group.
Depends what we're classing as sandbagging, Crosshair for example could use his dehydrated weight and be a B or his fat i've just eaten half a cow weight and be a C... It depends if we're talking the difference between real and maybe weight of being 10kg or 1kg.... 1kg ain't sandbagging.... 10kg clearly is.
Yeah, it takes a load of faff to changing the weights on Zwift, Strava, MFP and TR so I only do it once I’ve settled at a weight for a few days at a time. I was quite reluctant to let go of my PB lowest the other year mind you 😇
Yes no maybe. I work on the Zpower ranking as it gives an actual method of calculating it rather than a training number.
If you blow through the limit then you are upgraded if you just sneak above then you aren't straight away.
I'm not sandbagging in the sense I could go much harder. Of course I could always try and push the pace on the front of the group but I'd only drop myself.
If you look at my tested FTP number then I'm currently just above the limit but actually running at that wattage for 45 minutes plus it's unlikely. My auto Zwift FTP calculation has me just below the 3.2 from one of the recent races.
When Zpower upgrades me I'll happily go and take bottom half in B races but until then I'll remain a favourite in C races. It's not like I'm sweeping gold cups every race. Just one silver cup out of 3 this season. There's experience to be gained at the front of races to put into play in B races when I get my FTP up towards 4.
IT's funny, i was chatting to this fella on the forum today via private message, he was asking if i'm coming for a rematch as we had a few challenges back when i was faster
He's basically the C god
https://www.zwiftpower.com/profile.php?z=62302
But his power/watts are not all that... It's just how he seems to make the power, he's a cruise, boom, cruise, boom kind of rider and very very effective at hiding in the bunch and has a cracking burst of power at the end when needed. He's a very very good C.
Back when I used to race in the real world we called them sandbaggers.
The guy who did enough to do well would win a couple of key races seemingly easily but not well enough to go to expert ...consistantly year on year
The thing is, they are generally pack races. With drafting.
To race and place effectively, your average power (/kg) should be low and your normalised power (/kg) should be high- because the selections take place on the climbs, during strong attacks and in the sprints.
The cat boundaries are based on average power so already very generous.
Even more so when they are defined as FTP/kg.
As I say- all the ambiguity as discussed here, just goes to show why mass start is really the only valid solution for fair racing.
(And that’s without even touching on the uselessness of w/kg in the first place 🤣)
@weeksy “IT’s funny, i was chatting to this fella on the forum today via private message, he was asking if i’m coming for a rematch as we had a few challenges back when i was faster
He’s basically the C god
https://www.zwiftpower.com/profile.php?z=62302
But his power/watts are not all that… It’s just how he seems to make the power, he’s a cruise, boom, cruise, boom kind of rider and very very effective at hiding in the bunch and has a cracking burst of power at the end when needed. He’s a very very good C.“
👍🏻 He proves the ap/np point exactly. The normalised power for 10 of his last 11 wins has been over 3.2 w/kg. That’s what wins races.
I knew who that was going to be without even clicking the link. They should ride B in my view. If your basically winning every race in the cat then your too strong for that cat. I suspect they would actually do OK in B inf they tried.
Going back to weight a small amount which you would deem float weight is fine. Mine is set like that. Declared 76 but float between 75 and 77 constantly depending on loading and unloading state. When your getting into the 5KG out range then its getting dodgy. I know some racers who go on the scales every race which is auto uploaded to their profile.
At the moment I like the mass starts for different reasons, namely that I get to do some attacks in those where the pure A events its normally fingernails.
https://www.zwiftpower.com/events.php?zid=231852
3pm TT race, 45s quicker than last week. Went easier at start and pushed to the end this time.
Nice effort. Looks like your output was more consistent.
Yeah that was my goal, not to die at half way. I did have a bit of a slump in power I think about mid way, but held it together and got back on it at the end. Happy enough as far as performances go.
So just tentatively starting my Zwift Journey here, a few days into the 4wk FTP builder, starting from a low w/kg here of 1.9.
Obviously hoping that might be a little higher once I get through that programme but any advice for getting into the races at the E/D level, spose it's all similar to some extent.
What's your weight? If you can race at 1.9 and are below 100kg, you should find a few people at the very least to play with.
90 at the mo
Weeksy there are a lot of question marks about bathsalts stats. He has been caught twice cheating on DIRT races with another guy called Choppa. Choppa now seems to have distanced himself from bath salts and seems to be riding “clean”. Bath Salts has been upgraded to B twice and then purposely got himself downgraded. He has several races where his power and hr dont look right. He is just a serial trophy hunter with questionable tactics/data.
Basically pick the biggest races you can find with the most people possible.
There used to be newbies/beginners races, but you'd have to look through list
Weeksy there are a lot of question marks about bathsalts stats. He has been caught twice cheating on DIRT races with another guy called Choppa. Choppa now seems to have distanced himself from bath salts and seems to be riding “clean”. Bath Salts has been upgraded to B twice and then purposely got himself downgraded. He has several races where his power and hr dont look right. He is just a serial trophy hunter with questionable tactics/data.
I've seen a few videos they've done. I think they're brothers? Or certainly live near as they're in the same videos.
I dont get the trophy hunting in many ways. My goal is to be the best I can, sometimes that's meant being bumped up.
Well, it seems like KISS races are the new Tuesday night chaingang for Rich and I. Which is one good reason to try and hold the lead group as long as possible. The other is that the Keith Hill finale was going to slaughter me. So I figured the most efficient way to go would be to get the biggest lead possible and then hold threshold up the climb.
So short version is- that’s what I did 🤣
Rich buggered off then of course and I tickled the Rev limiter in order to beat some random who was there or thereabouts with me.
Another trophy for winning C and would have been 12/23 in B.
297w average so bang on ftp again.
They both got excluded from some big series last year. Choppa is questionable as well. Was an A, now B and suprise surprise can run with the As most of the time 🙄. Lost to them a few times on races I should have easily left them for dust.
Without the WKG categories racing for me would only ever be trying to hang on to faster groups to get as high as possible. I've towed Bs around before and essentially let them beat me as I want to keep ahead of the C 10 seconds behind. Tactically far more interesting than riding with them and trying to win the sprint.
I got beaten by riders with lower WKG than me last week as they were lighter and got up the volcano ahead of me. Whereas the week before I distanced them on the punchy short climbs of Richmond which suit me better and the week before we stayed together up the Titans grove climb which is in between the 2.
At the end of it the only racing that matters is the front end of the A races but then obviously it's Zwift racing and any number could be cheating even unknowingly.
Oh and interestingly Mr Bath Salts has signed up for my race tomorrow.
Oh and interestingly Mr Bath Salts has signed up for my race tomorrow.
89kg rider cannot win that race in C surely?
The closer you are to the ‘average’ Zwift cyclist race weight (70-80kg?) then the better the categories work for you. The further away you get, the more ludicrous they become.
It’s amazing how that little tiny w/kg number under everyone’s name has lead to a flawed system being the cornerstone of Zwift!
To be honest, it’s no different than my local outdoor group rides. At 85kg, I can hang with the best of them. At 96- I’m either overtaking them and getting a gap doing 0 watts whilst trying not to brake down the hills or getting dropped on any climb over 30 seconds.
Some kind of points based categories would probably be best but would be pretty onerous to run.
Whether it's perfect or not, it's what we have and it's 100% an incentive to me to push harder.
I do need to wind my neck in though and get out of the racing scene and into the longer steadier rides at the moment for training. 30mins just ain't cutting it.... Well... I say that, i don't actually know 🙂 I'm a long way from scientific in this stuff as you've all gathered 🙂
I do think i ought to be going longer/slower though for the next few months.... I can't promise though as i really enjoy the racing.
I just dont see the appeal of dropping down a category or two from where your really seated just to win a virtual trophy ... behind the fun of racing on zwift is the real benefit of getting fitter.
Its clear who is sandbagging or whatever you want to call it; that fella Mr Bath Salts and our very own Crosshair on here too ... their zwift race records are very similar.
I started as a B category and generally position in top 10 of most races... moved to an A category and then was closer to the back than the front. After a summer of not doing very much riding I am back at B and towards the back of that category at moment, but my goal is to get back up to A cat even though I will very likely be riding in the last A rider.
To drop down to a C category rider is not going to improve my fitness or prove anything other than I not got the stamina to mix it with the faster guys and improve.
our very own Crosshair on here too
CH is carrying some winter warming timber which pushes him into the top end of C rather than B, but i'll be hard pushed to argue he's a C as he completely dominates his races with power etc. But the figures don't lie. Salts is slightly different as you get the impression he's riding to numbers purely to stay in the C cat, whereas CH rode absolutely flat out last night, i was sitting with Bake Off on in the background, so watching him on the live tab, no-one could accuse him of sandbagging at 180bpm up Leith Hill... He was full chat from the gun. It just so happens he's VERY much on the cusp of B and has massive power to hang with the fast group out of the gate.
I think he's got another 1-2 races before he's forced to move up
95% of 20min 290watts / 3.02wkg
95% of 20min 284watts / 2.95wkg
95% of 20min 278watts / 2.84wkg
Average 284watts / 2.94wkg
@mooman I started in D 🤣
Then C, then B and now my ftp is down to 300 from a 336 peak and my weight up to 96 from an 86 low.
When I’m a B, I’ll race B as I’ve already said 🤷🏻♂️
I’ve been racing Zwift since 2015. My tactics are pretty sound now and I can generally predict the right strategy.
But also, the when you examine my power trace, I can get plenty of micro-rests. I’ve been riding a Kickr Snap this whole time and have got a very good idea of how to best utilise the flywheel to my advantage. Last night, I was preempting the attacks up the various small rises and making sure I hit the watts early enough to avoid the lag. I was also able to then coast into other people’s attacks on the descents.
And that was also my pb hour power of all time!
I guess had it been a segregated race, things could have played out a little differently. Against much lighter C’s I’d have needed to shake them off myself before the climb rather than relying on the A’s and B’s to help me form the gap.
But I’m certainly not going to apologise for racing in the correct category 😃
Weighed myself this morning and I am 2kg under my Zwift/Strava weight. My best ever ZP watts was 91 days ago so this has now dropped from my profile so even if I adjusted settings I would be Under 3.1W/Kg so well within C limits.
Cannot be bothered to adjust weight on all the platforms though as I am in Croatia next week for a mate’s birthday so five days of excess beer and food will no doubt bring IRL weight pretty close to Zwift settings.
Had a couple of hours outside on bike yesterday, will probably jump on one of the busier races between 5-7 tonight.
If you compare the previously identified Bath Salts race profile:
https://www.zwiftpower.com/profile.php?z=62302
It is very similar to Crosshairs:
https://www.zwiftpower.com/profile.php?z=78823
I dont dispute for a second it takes a huge effort to still win the C category ... but to consistently win the races really does say your in too low a category for sure. But if your happy with that then there really is no need to apologise.
18.55 KIss race tonight. I too will be in the wrong category .. but the one where I struggle to not come last!
https://www.zwiftpower.com/events.php?zid=232301
Different race, copy and paste any of my previous 100 reports.
The point is- categories are ftp based. Ftp is (without wanting to open that huge can of worms 🤣) a proxy for your hour(ish) power.
If I go as hard as I can for an hour with my honest weight set in my profile and still get nowhere near a strike then I’m unequivocally in the right category.
In the past I was lighter and more powerful and raced accordingly.
Also- 6/7 of my 2019 C cat wins have been in all-cat races. Zwiftpower then sifted me to C- not me 🤷🏻♂️
As soon as I’m light enough- I’ll tick the B cat box to override that decision 👍🏻
https://zwiftpower.com/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=5528
Ooo, it’s all a bit more nuanced now but the point still stands- I’m a C. Sorry 🤣
Weeksy - nobody could argue the fact you belong in C category; your results are clear proof of that. I don’t understand why you would think otherwise.
Crosshairs is clearly outstayed his time in C category ... as his profile shows, he has won every C category race he has entered ..from 27km to 50km distances and both flat and hilly courses.
But I guess we all look at Zwift differently. If getting virtual gold cups is what motivates you then best of luck and carry on. No critism intended.
Weeksy – nobody could argue the fact you belong in C category; your results are clear proof of that. I don’t understand why you would think otherwise
You've lost me matey, I never said anything about my Cat etc. I'm very much a C as you state, I expect to remain so too. Sadly
😂😂 Top trolling @mooman
First time I’ve ever heard anyone moaning about someone’s weight on Zwift being too accurate/heavy 😉
(One of the reasons I’m entering mixed cat races is to make sure I’m pitching myself against folks who stretch and challenge me on any given day)
Oh and interestingly Mr Bath Salts has signed up for my race tomorrow.
89kg rider cannot win that race in C surely?
oh, he did
https://www.zwiftpower.com/events.php?zid=232324
in B for that race, was hard!, gradually went backwards until i settled in a group, lost 4/5 off the front of the group 2nd time up Otley Road, somehow, god knows how managed to drop the group i was in and claw back the gap up Harlow hill, went early about 0.6km to go, got a good gap on everyone but 1, who came past me with a burrito to pip me,
all in all not a horrendous race
Tom did well though!!!
I think we need to get Crosshair and Salts in same race!
I am not trolling. Someone had earlier posted the link to the C-cat Bath Salts which was identifying him as a C-cat God and a person clearly racing in a lower category than his ability warranted simply to win C-cat races; I just identified your profile which you have got to admit looks almost identical to Bath Salts.
If you wish to distract from that by name calling then crack on. I have clearly said it still takes great effort, and if anything I am giving a compliment by saying your ability clearly demonstrates you should be ranked higher than a C-cat.
Strewth! I didn’t call you a name. Just said you were trolling me.
Tom has a higher w/kg for the last four races than I do- by the rules of the game he’s more in need of upgrading than I.
I can’t help being good at delivering the winning blow 😎 🏆
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
@weeksy Unlike Mr Salts- I can only
manage once a week! They wipe me out for the next three days at least.
We can wait. We'll make it pay per view!
Salts is in theory going again in the Americas PM race which he's leading the series!
He went out hard 400+ watts in a C only cat race which stretched it out. Got dropped by the front group after the first climb. Just not feeling great which wasn't too suprising.
Decent second group but at in the first lap I was struggling to hold on at times kept them pegged at about 30 seconds.
Salts looks to have gone solo at the end of lap one maybe with a B or 2. Front group started coming back, which also had my main rival in Nic Laughton, slowly which finally got my legs working and got them back part way up the KOM. Sat up too much and had to sprint back on. Doh! My finish line was the top of the KOM and held on then inattention up the next steep part had me pushing hard again.
Led into the bottom of the final climb and sat in then one went over the top and I went after them and kept 400w for a minute to take the long sprint easily for 2nd extending my overall lead.
Flipping hard and I'm amazed I kept the power up to the same as the last few weeks.
https://www.zwiftpower.com/events.php?zid=232324
Oh and 3.15WKG says I'm not going up anytime soon ;0)
That gives me at least one race probably 2 over 3.2 if I actually manage that.
In no way was I ever trying to keep below the limits.
Salts NP was massive but his overall power was lower than mine and I was always in a group of at least 5. He was solo or in a 2 up for at least a lap!
I also got loads of points thanks to Salts so I'm past @weeksy on points for the first time ever! (yet to be updated)
I got nothing mate, nothing. I need to find power, form, something. But in honesty I need to stop messing about with this racing lark and concentrate on longer slower rides for Belgium training.
Whether I can resist the urge, hmmm