Listening to our favourite Eurosport commentators talking about cadence today gave me some thoughts as to what cadence you guys 'flat' at in a race/event etc.
MIne seems to be closer to 70 on average than 100, although yesterday with Figg it was 90, but i wasn't reall paying attention.
Eurosport was saying "generally looking more up aruond 100 or more".... I'm nowhere near that, so i'm curious to know what you lot are doing ?
Usually aim for 90, 100+ for sprints etc. Avg of 70 sounds way too low to be efficient.
Racing on Zwift is typically 90 to 100.
Outside road riding is generally 80 to 85.
Last TT outside was 98rpm.
Quite enjoy doing V02 max intervals at 100 to 120.
Avg of 70 sounds way too low to be efficient.
Looking more, it's closer to 72-74 over about 10 races... but still low yes.
Outdoors I usually rode at 70/80rpm.
On zwift I've been up nearer 90/100rpm.
I did the pebble pounder training course and that was asking for a low rpm of 75 and a high of 110rpm. It has changed how I ride outdoors a which might be a good thing?
I mentioned this yesterday following the Academy ride, I used to be always around the 70 to 80 rpm but having done a couple of workouts and races I'm now more around the 90 range.
It takes a bit of getting used to but is now becoming more a natural point for me. At times I'm well over 100 rpm.
As I said the other day when I was doing the workout and had to go down to 85, it felt slow.
used to 70s but now mid 90s for TTT and Zwift Races generally. Workouts can be higher. I just did 3 x 12 minute threshold intervals (270ish watts) and was 100, 101 and 99 averages for the 12 minutes.
It might help to increase it once you get used to it as it will put more pressure on your CV system and less on your legs which will stop them fatiguing as quickly. It has taken 8-10 months to increase by 20-30rpm.
I think that much above 100 starts to get inefficient for longer periods of time (not necessarily sprints etc).
I started off around where you are and on hills especially I would grind it out. Now moved to high 80s average and trying to move it even further up. It kills your leg less for the same power. I've found if a group is chugging along at say 300w and then there is an attack where we need to go to 400W doing this by just increasing spin speed and then adding a gear to bring spin back to 90 something takes a lot less out of the legs than dropping a gear and pushing the same cadence. You can also react quicker. It also helps at the start. I typically use the last 10-20s to ramp up the cadence till I'm getting 400W at 100ish RPM. Find that less tiring again than pushing the power as I originally did.
The Vo2 max workout yesterday (3x 13x 30/15) I did the first set and a half at around 90-95rpm then switched to 100+ (ideally 105-110rpm) for the rest. The high RPM felt easier even though I was getting very tired. Next one I do I'm going to try for the whole lot at high RPM.
I am going to go engineering geek on it now:
For 220w at 70 rpm you need to push on the pedals with a torque of 30Nm.
For the same output but at 90 rpm you only need to push on the pedals with a torque of 23.2 Nm.
So for the same power you get a big reduction in the force required but you have to produce that force more often.
Assuming you have a crank length of 170mm this means pushing at 176 N (approx. 18kg) at the pedals at 70 rpm or 136 N (approx. 14 kg) at 90 rpm.
Just done a testride, workout mode on the Parkwood and the Road bike.
200w ERG
89-90 cadence.
15min duration
There was 2bpm in it, with the roadie winning... Is 2bpm enough for me to care, not really in honesty. It was slightly down all the way round. But that could easily be because i'd warmed up on the Parkwood so my legs and body was a bit looser... All in all, very little difference.
Whatever you are most comfortable on for an hour! 2w will be lost if you start feeling uncomfortable
Indeed matey
Only 24-25km today, but all outside and mostly trails. The wrist/hand, it wasn't terrible but wasn't perfect, gentle trails, ridgeway etc i can manage... once it starts getting a bit rooty i can feel it juddering the hand a bit more than i'd like, so stayed away from it mostly.
Epic being out there though
Jealous mate...I don't get out much these days and don't really have any decent trails nearby.
https://www.zwiftpower.com/events.php?zid=1106516
Decent race and result today. Last 4km i suffered a bit and lost wheels, but i wasn't alone in that.
Very much enjoyed it though, that Douce course in France is a little 'rolly' but that's no bad thing.
Due to the TT season finishing for me outside this was my first race on my own in Zwift for ages (I’ve still been doing the TTT with my team WKG) Happy with how it went considering I had next to no warm up for it (3mins 😂) Paced it well, set off fairly steady then slowly ramped it up as I chased down and passed others.
https://zwiftpower.com/events.php?zid=1107500
Just getting into zwift.
1. Kickr core purchased.
2. Tried fitting my gravel bike , failure (too wide).
3. Fitted my road bike - done one session
4 Bought another bike as I will never be bothered to move the cassette back and general faff of putting the wheel back. same colour as the gravel bike.
5.thinking of ways to hide new bike from wife (hoping same colour of new bike as old gravel bike, will be sufficient to throw her off the scent)
6 hoping screen cast from phone to TV will be acceptable.
7.bought another TV to replace the one I will use for zwift.
8. Cancelled gym membership.
You're missing signed up to the Tuesday STW group ride off your list of things you've done. If you fancy a spin it's 7.30pm on Tuesday, drop me a PM and I'll sort you out with the invite.
On the cadence thing I'm mid 70-80 average for most rides but climbs I'm much slower. My fastest time up the Alpe came off a 60rpm average. When I'm climbing I just cannot put power down spinning, don't know why.
I found ZA workout 1 a complete PITA because I could either spin at the required cadence or hit the power, never the 2 together. To hit their power levels I needed to be 20rpm lower.
Not sure if anyone will fancy it but I've signed up to the bologna TT at 18.00 this evening, not convinced I'll make it home in time but you never know, however...
I've also signed on for the 18.30 Kirchmair series Sprint Race, one lap of volcano CCW so should be very short and brutal. Never done a sprint before so no idea how badly I'm going to die.
I've signed on in A but can ride B at the moment without getting DQd so happy to switch down if anyone else fancies joining me in making them selves puke before Friday beer. (I'll absolutely be dropping to B if I make the TT, I'm a masochist not a moron!)
One lap sprints tend to be brutal. Think significantly above FTP for most of it (especially as they don't go over 20 minutes so no upgrade risk). When my FTP was around 4.1 I used to do 4.3-4.5 for sprints.
You probably need the fast workout anyway Brian after your pootle following us around last night! 😉
Are you still doing the Pretzel with us in the morning? If so, don't kill yourself tonight!
I typically ride with 90+ cadence average, can be as high as ~105 average.
Think it down to my bow legs, grinding up climbs can leave me with painful knee joints for days, especially as I've got older.
When my FTP was around 4.1 I used to do 4.3-4.5 for sprints.
Yeah, 9k at race pace I'm guessing will be bloody quick, A is a bit of a struggle for me at the best of times, I think it'll end up a 12ish minute ITT in there to be honest. Can't see the back of any bunch being much under 5w/kg all the way round.
Are you still doing the Pretzel with us in the morning? If so, don’t kill yourself tonight!
Some of it at least. In honesty I've had a lazy week. I wasn't up to it on Tuesday so skipped the race and slept instead andlast night was much steadier than I expected so I could do with a few good efforts.
Strava KOM for the Pretzel is 1hr 48 mins - could be a challenge and you can get the route done whilst keeping the 'happy wife' mantra 😉
Strava KOM for the Pretzel is 1hr 48 mins – could be a challenge and you can get the route done whilst keeping the ‘happy wife’ mantra 😉
I reckon I could beat that 😂
THe big pretzel routes are still missing in my root badge collection. Bit of a target for next time I'm home alone in an evening.
THe big pretzel routes are still missing in my root badge collection. Bit of a target for next time I’m home alone in an evening.
All of them, in one evening, are you mad?
Due to the TT season finishing for me outside this was my first race on my own in Zwift for ages (I’ve still been doing the TTT with my team WKG) Happy with how it went considering I had next to no warm up for it (3mins 😂) Paced it well, set off fairly steady then slowly ramped it up as I chased down and passed others.
@bjj.andy.w
Did you do the 12 hr or is that another Andy W? V impressive result (in bad weather too?)
I’ve also signed on for the 18.30 Kirchmair series Sprint Race,
I'm entered for that just to get a faster time than a friend for the CCW route.
C though as there are some proper hitter entered and should hang on for a fast time mostly.
First race for about 2 months but I've been doing plenty of short efforts.
Might be a B now due to some weight loss but not sure where FTP is at and as it's not over 20minutes I won't get a DQ and it's very unlikely I'll win with the competition.
I've no idea who is in the races - unless they're on here or ride from a GT team I'd not have a clue who is who anyhow.
In practice in B I should hold my own I'd hope, in A I'm going to get spat out quicker than a sour milk. It's my first solo race in ages mind (hence having slipped back to B) so I may well find I'm waaaay off the pace even in B
On ZP for the race sort by category and then by ranking points and boggle at the points and power. Especially in C. I've raced against a couple of them so another look suggests I might be able to be up there except for the 105kg Russian who has a 1000w+ sprint...
On ZP for the race sort by category and then by ranking points and boggle at the points and power. Especially in C. I’ve raced against a couple of them so another look suggests I might be able to be up there except for the 105kg Russian who has a 1000w+ sprint…
Can't say I've ever bothered looking to be honest.
I'd go so far as to say, having just looked, that your Russian isn't entirely legit. A bit of attention to his numbers and you'll see he was about to become a B, then miraculously put on 4kg, exactly the right amount of weight to still be a cat C, (at 101kg he'd round the other way) but not any more so it slows him on hills. Every time his 3 race average would make him a B he has a race just below that line and gets to stay in C...
I might be wrong of course but I get the distinct impression he weighs about the same as me and doesn't like not being [any where near] first over the line.
That or he plays rugby for a living.
And look at his power in any race <20 minutes. His power curve basically has a step in it at 19 minutes. There are plenty of characters like him on zp though. They are curiosities but needn't be an actual barrier to enjoying the races.
Looked at my ZP profile a little while ago, I've used it so little over the summer while being stupid enough not to cancel subs until just before the September deduction, that I'm now "min category D."
Now there's no way I'd expect to replicate it indoors with no heat adaption, plus I feel absolutely wrecked again today (although a lot of that might be mental fatigue) despite only doing a gentle 10 miles as my only exercise yesterday, but I did ~3.76W/Kg up Cheddar Gorge for 20mins ~3.5 weeks ago.
Zwiftpower should be able to look at all our Strava data, inside and out, to decide our "minimum category." I'm clearly, in theory, a cat B... Albeit I feel nothing like as good as I did back in Feb, not by a long way.
Looked at my ZP profile a little while ago, I’ve used it so little over the summer while being stupid enough not to cancel subs until just before the September deduction, that I’m now “min category D.”
It works over your races I thought so doesn't just degrade over time? Even then though your cat D will very quickly be increased to something more appropriate once you start riding.
The ones which ring very loud bells are the ones which stay low despite the fact that you'd expect them to be getting higher. (FWIW I've seen that profile pic before after having my legs torn off by someone back when I first started zwifting and I thought it very odd then, odder still I've never actually raced him)
Doesn't effect my enjoyment of the thing mind, I've been gaming long enough that being annoyed by "cheats" sort of stopped happening about the same time iddqd stopped working.
Not too bothered about him. Challenge to beat in a sprint if I'm still there. It's the out of cat people who rip the Cs apart who are a registered B or and A or on zpower and not registered that spoil it.
I think you'll go well Tom. I expect top2. I was tempted but mother in law is over so I best not and saving myself for fire road pootle at Swinley tomorrow while my boy is jumping.
Me and my boy mouth. Home in time for bologna after all.
If anyone wants to laugh at me in now down for cat b in the sprint...
B is fruity! Danger is in the pack and at 403w average 2 mins in.
B was bloody hard! "Picked" the wrong wheel to stick with going up the last little ramp, the bunch split and I didn't have t he legs to launch off the front climbed off the second bunch and finished somewhere on the middle of the two.
That was a damn good workout,. A smidgen over ftp for the full half hour of races.
14th all cats in bologna with an average 325w,could have given a bit more on the flat without popping my self I think but overall paced it nicely, pretty even around 80rpm all the way through. Always find the sudden drop in resistance as it levels off ruins my pace and bologna is terrible for that. Pleased with the effort though.
The sprint race was pretty good, pack settled in about 350w I guess. So long as I find one I could hold the front at 300W, it fragmented a little on the ramps but by and large the group stayed in one piece, had to chase down a couple of small breaks as no one else seemed interested. Things picked up with about 1k to go, front started pulling on at about 400,it split on the roller and I'd misjudged the kick and let my self drop back a bit far. Clawed back about 10 places in the last few hundred in the volcano but no way I was making the front by then. 29th on the road at 332w average in 12.05, fully 10 seconds back which I'd lost in the last 500m at most. 23rd on zp which surprises me, I'd have expected a lot more dqs looking at the w/kg in the first 25 places.
Still I've definitely earned Friday beer now.
Don’t think ZP does DQs for races under 20 minutes.
That would certainly make sense! Put it the top 30 riders there were 23 riders at 4.1 or higher in B. I'm 22nd in the w/kg listing at (high) 4.1 out of 37 B entrants
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Garry_Lager
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Due to the TT season finishing for me outside this was my first race on my own in Zwift for ages (I’ve still been doing the TTT with my team WKG) Happy with how it went considering I had next to no warm up for it (3mins 😂) Paced it well, set off fairly steady then slowly ramped it up as I chased down and passed others.
@bjj.andy.w
Did you do the 12 hr or is that another Andy W? V impressive result (in bad weather too?)
Yes that was me. I was over the moon with my distance and finishing position. Becoming the VTTA 12hr champion was icing on the cake !
I think you’ll go well Tom. I expect top2. I was tempted but mother in law is over so I best not and saving myself for fire road pootle at Swinley tomorrow while my boy is jumping.
As I was primarily after a fast time over a single lap it was infuriatingly slow. Basically was pushing the pace on the full lap or working back to the front to push it on. Got joint time with someone else which is enough.
Anyway nothing left for the sprint so got 7th. Pretty happy as feeling good and if I'd sat in would have been up there at the front in the sprint. Probably means I'll over Cat limits just in a 20+ minute race. Will find out soon enough.
https://www.zwiftpower.com/events.php?zid=1108658
Bah.... 4th again...0.6s away from the win. It was going OK but the last 1.5 laps were brutal and fast, i was all in and had an aero, but had to use it at the top of the little incline or i'd lose the split for sure and be left behind, that put me back in the mix, but on the final run in i just fell a little short of the podium.
https://www.zwiftpower.com/events.php?zid=1118325
Happy yet disappointed.
@Weeksy, we need to try and coordinate events, looking at your results and your descriptions of how you do we're at a similar level in Cat C. I squeaked a 3rd place in the same race on Monday with a whole 1w FTP upgrade too.
I generally ride daytimes as WFH and fit in with short flat races with as many riders as possible. I'm beginning to learn that the only way to get ranking points is either beat lots of riders, or very good ones, preferably both. I'd have needed a 2nd I think to get any points at all, maybe even the win.
I'll be not riding tomorrow or Thursday as it's TTT on Thurs evening. But sum, min, Tues, just shout.
What are these ranking points of which you speak?
Actually no, don't tell me, I've enough stuff to get overly competitive about already.
Lol there's a full league system. Ever race you get rankings points in the overall standings, or not. It depends who you do or don't beat etc.
Race Ranking 426.73 pts in 10,238th
Category 386th
So currently I'm ranked 386th in C. I've been top 100 at times at my best
Today's result got me
451.78 but as my rank is 426.73 I pick up nothing for that.
When you reach your 'level' as a rider it can be very very hard to get points in a race. In my last 30 races I've only scored points 4 times.
Monday lunchtime crit race should be doable for me at the moment. Another good crit race should see my ranking down towards 475 points ish. It's a case of trying to balance having enough good riders to get a good ranking score but not so many as it floods the front end. That said I've had 1st, 2nd and 3rd in my last 3 races.
Got rubbish points for the 1st as some absolute donkey won it.
Race Ranking 540.19 pts in 26,612th
Category 14,185th
Age Group 8,643rd
Weight Group 10,604th
Team 13th
Country 6,400th
Best 5: 403.71, 497.22, 600.00, 600.00, 600.00
Minimum Category B 24 races
ZPoints 5,199 pts in 5850th
So that's what that's all about then!
12:20 on Monday it is then matey. Entered
Well well well, this is an unwelcome development - I never had any idea what this actually referred to or how it worked...
Well, decided to get on the turbo and try out my legs after buggering up my hip in a bimble crash.
Rode with Desperate Dan😉 for a while and clocked up 15km with a couple if sprints thrown in as testers.
All in all my hip/ thigh feel pretty good, bit achy but not bad. Not going to try anything stupid but I think I'll free ride every other day and start notching up the k's and make sure my hip really is ok.
I missed Zwift.
I wonder if there's any mileage in implementing a similar system for the next race series? Instead of time you get points for beating those who are, on paper, faster than you or lose points for finishing below "your" position.
50 riders
all ranked similar to the handicap system
+1 point for every position gained
-1 point for every position lost
There are no doubt multiple flaws in this but it might ease the admin burden?
that could work Ivandobski but its still mightily unfair on the cat a dragging the bs along for them to steal points over rather or likewise soem Cs tagging on with b group who on paper faster so they take points for beating them having enjoyed their draft.
only way to make that work is if each category or band of similiar level riders start in mini groups. against only works if there's a reasonable amount of starters in each group. this could also work with handicaps setbon average race times from segmented category rides so you know what the gap should be roughly for each course by cat. then each cat cam work together to maintain or overcome an handicap and then form mini breakaway sprints for the standing and points split within the cat. should make it competitive and a bit fairer to each cat in their own right.
Is anyone raging the zwift Watts on a large oval single ring with an SRAM crankset?
Not for the first time I dropped my chain in a sprint today, and I belatedly realised the absolute black one I have is not actually narrow wide (FFS) - it's a shiftable one. Just assumed all AB ones would be NW for some reason.
I've used the round Xsync sram ones before and they are solid - I can get one of those, but I quite like oval rings.
^^ Slight hijack on the oval ring question matey!
I've actually got an oval ring to go on the turbo bike as I use them irl.... Never fitted it though as it occurred to me that it might mess up the power measurement from the turbo?
still not really fair for the fastest rider who cannot possibly score for than zero 😂 2nd fastest rider can only score max 1 etcI wonder if there’s any mileage in implementing a similar system for the next race series? Instead of time you get points for beating those who are, on paper, faster than you or lose points for finishing below “your” position.
I’ve actually got an oval ring to go on the turbo bike as I use them irl…. Never fitted it though as it occurred to me that it might mess up the power measurement from the turbo?
Think you would be fine there with hub power measurement on the turbo - it does affect the measurement of some cranks and pedal power meters though. Generally over-reads so all good 🙂
Depending on my current goals I generally pick races based on the points of the top riders in the category on the ZP entries. So if I'm chasing points then I'll go for the biggest field with the highest ranked riders as winning an event against lower ranked people doesn't gain you points. The result from that race might get utilised later though when the older events drop off the 3 month cycle. I'm currently losing a result a week so need an event a week to stop a base 600 point being in my average.
Did a B sprint race with club mates with dodgy turbos (in case they are looking). Held the front B group until the final drag up to the line on Queens Highway. Happy with that but still concerned I'm meant to be in B but haven't done a long enough event or even turbo ride to confirm. I'll stick in C for now as I'd have got a bunch of points in C but got nowt in B.
Similar power to last weeks sprint race but didn't have the punch.
https://www.zwiftpower.com/events.php?zid=1118383
jumped back in over the last couple of weeks, mix of outdoor riding (hour plus long Strava segments) and Trainerroad Sustained Power plan since April, last few weeks ive been doing a longer outdoor ride (3hrs) or a 2hr Z2 Turbo session (Baxter+2) which seems to smash my legs, however i've done my best ever 20 min w/kg at 3.9w/kg twice in the last 5 races (and an outdoor PR at Dalby 1:45 for the red, best since late 2014)
race wise, had 1 cup, bronze, but those above me 4.1 and 4.3w/kgvolcano circuit ccw, same old story in Innsbruck, Leg Snapper just too steep for me to get over in the group, still managed to PR the volcano in an after party race
best was yesterday Kiss at Race Pacific 2 Lap Sand and Sequoias, i was sure i was going to lose the group on the climbs, however i hung in there 1st lap, 303w average to the flat on the fist lap, so was fast, thankfully the pace dropped right off on the flat and managed to recover, pace went up again, but again managed to stay with the group, but was that gassed i had no sprint, top 10 spread was only 3 seconds, but was late to jump and got 9th, happy with it as i managed to be up front
happy with where i am though, enjoyed the racing after 6 months off it
Nice one mate, great stuff.
Anyone else in for the Crit tomorrow at 12:20?
(and an outdoor PR at Dalby 1:45 for the red, best since late 2014)
Quick!
BITD when noone used Strava I held that up to about 2013. Did a 2 up 2 man SS TT in about 2:05 just to see how much people were exagerating how quick they could get round it (basically 1:30 was a bit of a fib unless they were am Elite level racer).
Keep intending to go back with gears and my now dead race bike but the motiviation to drive there and smash round it is low when I could just stay at home and do the same from the door.
Nice one mate, great stuff.
Anyone else in for the Crit tomorrow at 12:20?
Is that the 2x short race TTR weekly? Was looking at that - quite like the late Aussie one at 10pm Tuesdays but think I'll get on this for a change.
Is that the 2x short race TTR weekly?
I doubt @weeksy meant that one. Can't see what he did mean though...
I might do the 12:20 TTR today though (and its 12:50 hilly partner straight after).
First Zwift race in a while yesterday, did a weigh in pre race and had to add 4kg to Zwift profile😔 Entered one of the Zwift future works races with the boost power feature. Not overly keen on that tbh, bit too much to think about, went with minimum boost, charged it up each lap and saved it all for the last lap. Due to lack of ZP races ranking points had gone from 320 to 500, pleased with 2nd in B and a decent points haul.
https://www.zwiftpower.com/events.php?zid=1131581
Good racing savoyad - esp the NY one you looked strong to hold the front group up the hill.
Not ridden that before, and won't be hurrying back tbh, but good to try it out.
Yeah, I enjoyed that, it's nice having a familiar face in the pack. As and Bs together means it's a good workout to stay in the lead group in the flat race. I was left for dust on the finishing ramp of that 2nd race though. It's only short, but one moment I was on his wheel and the next I was crossing the line 10 seconds behind him.
I have done that combo once before, and I particularly like the course for the 2nd race, but robbo's Tuesday series will soon mean Tuesday lunchtimes are out for a while.
So a new update today...keep it in mind and give yourself time before entering events.
One change...the new Canyon Aeroad bike just got changed. A bit more expensive in drops but also a weight gain, gone down from 4 stars to 3. So looks like no longer the fastest all rounder, that didn't last long.
Back to the Tron for this week's Sunday Hills...
not sure there was much in it anyway vs. the Tron unless you paired it with the best wheels (which I'm not at a high enough level for yet!) but yeah, not surprising they nerfed as it was definitely OP (to use some gamer speak 😃)One change…the new Canyon Aeroad bike just got changed. A bit more expensive in drops but also a weight gain, gone down from 4 stars to 3. So looks like no longer the fastest all rounder, that didn’t last long.
Back on the Cervelo S5 for the non Tron guys ?
I have one of them in the garage too Weeksy! 🙂
To be honest I usually use the Tron anyway (it took so much effort to get it!), the only reason I use anything else is when Tron bikes are not allowed, or in a TTT so I can see my avatar drafting or not.
I've still never worked out how to enter to get the Tron so I don't have it, despite having climbed more than enough for it
@weeksy Really?! I'd be gutted, it's the only thing in the whole game worth unlocking tbh!! Just select the "Everest Challenge" from the menu like so: https://support.zwift.com/en_us/selecting-a-challenge-HJxhsIONB
Goddamit, decided I'd fire up Zwift for first time in ~2 months and it's down!
I’ve still never worked out how to enter to get the Tron so I don’t have it, despite having climbed more than enough for it
*Shocked!!* I wish I'd known this sooner as I would have shown you. All those hills you climbed...
I was angry that I didn't realise about the Everest challenge until I'd already done 3000m...but you have done over and above.