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Didn't Zwift yesterday, so will take advantage of fresh (ish) legs and do an FTP test later. Not done one in over a year due to how unpleasant they are!
Inspired by njee early effort did first Zwift race since May last year.
Attaboy, been a while since I inspired anyone!
I kind of know what you mean Kryton. I’m using Trainerroad to control ERG mode whilst Zwift simultaneously sees my power and thus drives my Avatar around.
As I go up a familiar hill on Zwift, my Power increases! As I go down, it decreases!
Obviously not by much as ERG mode tries to correct it- but noticeably so.
If you had a smart trainer and used ERG mode within the Workout Module, you’d be in the same boat, so for structured training then a smart trainer probably isn’t worth it?
Road to Ruins race... how does that usually play out? Feels like the only selective climb is the first bit of the Mountain before you peel off, which comes early in the race for a single lapper. The one out of the jungle is just a long drag and not really steep enough. Can see it usually being a sprint finish from a small group.
OT: Also interested in the P1S when you come to sell.
[quote=mrblobby ]Road to Ruins race... how does that usually play out? Feels like the only selective climb is the first bit of the Mountain before you peel off, which comes early in the race for a single lapper. The one out of the jungle is just a long drag and not really steep enough. Can see it usually being a sprint finish from a small group.
IME, big group until the bottom of the first climb. everyone else ****s off, small groups or solo TT the rest. 😉
Right, someone talk to me about Smart Trainers. Right now I'm trying to maintain 300w average intervals but the fact that the terrain is changing and my effort / cadence is not reflected by the landscape seems to make the constant watts mentally challenging
The joy of smart trainers in ERG mode is that it sets the power output and you just pedal. Drop your cadence and the effort per pedal stroke increases, speed it up and it drops, but the power output stays the same. No cheating, no dropping effort, no throttling off on the final interval. It's a bit of a revelation.
I use Sufferfest for intervals to be honest, I don't really get why I'd want to do them on Zwift - seems like a lot of distraction - but the basic principle's the same. If you pedal harder the trainer just adjusts things so the power output stays the same.
I think smart trainers are brilliant, takes the guess work and thought out of intervals and just leaves you to get on with it, no gear changes, no nothing. Only exception is on really short, brutal efforts when the trainer in ERG mode sometimes can't 'keep up' but for most stuff it's brilliant.
Good on Zwift too, the way it reacts to gradient changes makes the whole thing feel more real.
Badlywireddog- as I say, there is something in what Kryton is saying though which isn’t solved by ERG mode. It is possible to be +/- 20w in ERG mode at the same cadence, at least until it catches up. And the terrain aspect of Zwift does cause that to happen- especially as I’ve ridden the hills many times free riding and had the terrain change automatically.
It’s one of the reasons I choose the flattest possible route when doing ERG sessions (the other being that you rack up more ‘miles’ 😆 )
Keeping up with the 10-12 week ftp workout and avoiding racing at the moment. Mainly because I had an enforced layoff before Christmas and can’t really face a 4 lapper and the 1 lap races always seem to be on at times I’m not free.
I’m starting to get my head around being on the turbo longer than an hour. It wasn’t that long ago that once the hour was up I’d just stop as I just couldn’t face being on any longer than that.
I’m starting to get my head around being on the turbo longer than an hour.
This, lots. Although only my second week. Had a crack at the three sisters as I'm working away a lot and this was the only session I can do until the weekend. Blimey that's hilly. But on the cx bike for 1hr40. Definitely a bit numb after that but there is no way I could have done that without the app.
I was even going bit further then I realised I had a flat tyre. On a turbo! How can that happen?
I was looking at the power curve on strava. I like to think of myself as a model of consistency. Which is better than saying 'not going any stronger' 😉
crosshair - Member
Badlywireddog- as I say, there is something in what Kryton is saying though which isn’t solved by ERG mode. It is possible to be +/- 20w in ERG mode at the same cadence, at least until it catches up.
I've generally found it pretty good, at least with the Kickr. I get an occasional small peak over the target power, but it's generally momentary and only happens if I really kick it hard at a high cadence. I get what you're saying about ERG and Zwift, it's one of the reasons I don't do intervals on the platform. I can bury myself quite happily without, though I love it for just riding around and at some point I'll probably do some racing for giggles. I'll maybe go and have a play tomorrow though.
get an occasional small peak over the target power, but it's generally momentary and only happens if I really kick it hard at a high cadence
I think that’s more down to the way the kickr estimates power output rather than what power you’re actually making.
My drivo is a bit odd* on erg mode - one day I'll try with something other than zwift to see which is to blame (do you get taster sessions on TR/TP/sufferfest etc ?).
*I get overshoot/undershoot oscillation and it's fairly annoying (on sessions that specify cadence I sometimes get "MORE POWER" simultaneously with "REDUCE RPM", for example)
Once or twice I've also had it refuse to let go of a high output after a sprinty bit, so I'm still doing 450w or whatever when I'm expecting a recovery spell
(I don't plan to do all that many workouts so it's fine, but ...)
I think that’s more down to the way the kickr estimates power output rather than what power you’re actually making.
Maybe, but I'm not convinced that there are serious user-driven peaks even given the smoothing etc. I guess I'd need to compare with a power meter to confirm, but it doesn't feel that way at any rate.
I was even going bit further then I realised I had a flat tyre. On a turbo! How can that happen?
Use the tacx utility app to check calibration. You can get flats if it’s running too tight.
I use a Snap power matched to my Stages and it’s pretty up and down! The longer you smooth it, the better it looks of course but the KICKR is notorious for producing an abnormally smooth ERG trace.
I can relax different muscles in my leg and suddenly lose 15w or adopt an aero pose and see 10w disappear. ERG shouldn’t mean flawless.
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That’s mine for example.
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And that’s the same workout probably done by a KICKR user 😉
Use the tacx utility app to check calibration. You can get flats if it’s running too tight.
I did that before I rode first time. I'll do it again when I re-inflate the tyre. On reflection those wheels have been hanging in the rafters for 4 years and the tyre was losing air every day. So I'm going with 'rubber perishing' in the tube as my first guess..
Day 4 of the 4 week FTP Booster, was an endurance session to do what i like for an hour.
So i thought i'd get a taster of what the course is going to be like for Sundays Zwift Fondo Series Europe - the three sisters route (Bambino Fondo), 2283ft of climbing, an hour later and a ftp rise from 194 > 204 makes me a happy but knackered chap! Sunday will be interesting, especially at 8am...
So I had this plan, ride hills for a month to get stronger and then look at racing again. So of course two weeks in I do the Tri4 Road to Ruins race. I sort of couldn't resist as I have enjoyed riding that route and it is the first time I have seen a race on it at a time which suited me.
I was a bit concerned as the legs were a bit tired from the climbing (I was basically doing one day on, one day off during the week to allow for recovery). It was also 25 degrees in my garage so I was sweating buckets even on my 10 minute warm up. Therefore for a change I decided not to kill myself in the first 2-3k of the race. After a couple of k I got into a reasonable group and got to the bottom of the first hill in 56th overall. After a couple of hundred metres of climbing I was 44th. Unfortunately this meant I was on my own for most of the Jungle loop. I was dropped by one guy near the start of it and I was caught by a couple of guys on the loop but I caught and passed one other guy and then passed another guy on the climb out. I was on my own again until I caught another guy with about 6-7k to go and we rode the rest of it together. I got to the turn into the final straight to the finish and my stomach started heaving so I had to back off a bit. The other guy sprinted to the finish in the last few hundred metres but I decided not having to clean a mess off the floor was a higher priority. We managed to hold off a group who was 30 seconds behind us for the last 5k. I was shattered at the finish and was still sweating half an hour later!
The really cool thing is I got 5th in C, set new high average of 2.9 w/kg and according to Strava PR'd the climbs so the hill work seems to be paying off. I am really happy with how it went.
Just did a Clydesdale race for those over 90kg. The top 5 averaged 4w/kg for the hour, slightly suspect
Just finished the WBR three lap hilly. Upgraded to Cat B as I averaged 3.4w/kg.
Been a bit quiet as i had a 48 hour rest. Partly as i wanted a rest day, but yesterday i swapped my KTM 690 for a newer KTM 690 and spent many hours spannering, so no time for Zwifting.
I'm thinking the 10:30am Volcano CCW should be a bit of fun later.
Just binned a ride. 37 degrees in the garage tonight. Fan or no fan that is silly.
I'm worried about dying of hypothermia later in the garage !
weeksy - I turbo outside in the garden, even in the snow! 😛
Having to do it in the lounge, the mrs, dog and little lad all mock me when i have to work hard.
I use a Snap power matched to my Stages and it’s pretty up and down! The longer you smooth it, the better it looks of course but the KICKR is notorious for producing an abnormally smooth ERG trace.
Well, according to DCRainmaker, the 2017 Kickr is pretty much spot on - the power smoothing thing affects the way power curves are presented rather than how accurately it's measured as I understand it:
https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2017/08/hands-on-wahoo-kickr-2017-edition.html
I wonder if the fact that the Snap is a wheel-on trainer makes a difference in that respect. We have a direct drive Kickr, I don't have a separate power meter for comparative measures, but DCRainmaker's pretty well respected by sport tech geeks, no?
I can relax different muscles in my leg and suddenly lose 15w or adopt an aero pose and see 10w disappear. ERG shouldn’t mean flawless.
Not sure I quite understand the point you're making. Are you saying that your Stages meter shows this, but your Snap doesn't register the change in power output?
I'm just intrigued.
I get that in ERG mode you don't precisely follow the selected power output and maybe the smoothing obscures this a little, but in practical terms, I'm not sure how far off it's possible to wander more than momentarily?
Has anyone with a Kickr noticed it vibrating, like its out of balance or something? Mine seems to have started doing it over the last month or so.
Well i entered the race as planned. ZHR volcano CCW. there were 2 cats, A and C, so i went with C as i know i can't break the 3.2 boundary over a 45 mins race.
Sat there happy really, although pushing out 177bpm which is only 5-6 below my max on many of the little kickers, i was flatting in the bunch at 170bpm and going OK. But with 800m to go a couple of people kicked on... 176, 178, 179, damn... I was putting out 3.5w/kg on the flat (340w) and getting my backside kicked ! they were all 4.5+.... I lost the bunch and that was it really.. Lost a few more seconds on the hill up to the line and finished 10th.
The thing that worries me, you see the Av HR at the end on the results table... there were 3 people there at sub 140bpm ! and a couple of 0's.
One bloke on a TT bike should get a DQ i think.
Interesting race, good power... .Just not enough at the end in the mix up.
I was putting out 3.5w/kg on the flat (340w) and getting my backside kicked ! they were all 4.5+....
Does that really matter though. Surely on the flat it's all about outright power rather than power to weight. If they weigh the same as you but are churning out more watts per kilo that's one thing, but if they're lighter, they could have a significantly higher watt per kilo output, but still be putting out less watts and on the flat, that shouldn't matter. Someone weighing 80 kilos at 4.5 w/kg would be putting out roughly the same wattage as you.
Someone lighter could actually be putting out less: e.g. a 60kg rider at 5w/kg would be putting out just 300 watts and, theoretically, would be slower than you on the flat, no? Though I guess they might be more aero by dint of being short and smaller.
I guess the fact that Zwift displays watts per kilo as default means people notice it more easily, but in a lot of situations - most stuff that isn't a climb - it's not necessarily telling you that much. It's interesting when you start relation watts per kilo to someone's power output by clicking on their name - there are a lot of sub 60kg rider on Zwift for some reason....
Sorry, just thinking aloud. I've pondered before how it's possible for me to be putting out more w/kg than someone I'm drafting, but if they're a big unit putting out decent power, its quite feasible.
And it makes basing race cats on w/kg look a bit over simplistic. You can see how really light riders with high power to weight ratio could still be properly blown away on the flat just through lack of outright power. Same as small climbers on flat tour stages in the real world.
BadlyWiredDog, discussed a few times in this thread, last time around page 225, prompted that time by this link https://zwiftinsider.com/tests/. Quite similar to real life really, unless you're climbing the Ventoux it's more about watts (and CdA) than kg. The zwift penalty for being tall does seem a bit harsh though as tall people can still be very aero.
BWD- yeah, you are spot on! Zwift and zwifters have an unhealthy obsession with w/kg thanks to the novelty of those little numbers being on display 😆
It’s the main reason the race cats and group rides end up causing so many issues- unless everyone weighs the same, it’s meaningless.
Even uphill it’s not the whole story as at the same w/kg, the heavier rider will climb faster (because to hit the same w/kg they must therefore be chucking out more power).
It’s also why I’ve stopped trying to diet and train. I don’t want to be a skinny person- I want to go fast! Which means eating enough to grow my FTP 🙂
(Although I’m cutting that balance a little too fine since Christmas 😆 )
Weeksy- are TT bikes excluded from that race?? They don’t draft but you can still draft them so it only disadvantages the rider??
Bike swaps on the fly used to be possible but Zwift changed the code sadly. They used to swap for the long descents off the mountain in a KISS race.
I did the wbr flat race this morning and ended up riding the zpower train. Quite a lot of zpower users in this race and they were all laying down the power and dragging us with them but it was hard work on the flats to stay with them. Bigfoot from this parish was in the A group which i stuck with for the first lap but i eventually dropped away. I was in new road shoes for which i didnt have time to check cleat positioning and one shoe was a bit off plus i couldnt quite get the tightness right with the boa system (its the system that you cant loosen,it only quick releases) so trying to do this mid race was interesting. I finished 6th in B in a group finish but i struggled all the way round, just didnt have it today. I seem to have very sore/tight quad muscles immediately after the race so i wonder if that is cleat related which seems an odd effect or the baltic temp in the garage.
BWD- yeah, you are spot on! Zwift and zwifters have an unhealthy obsession with w/kg thanks to the novelty of those little numbers being on display
Yep, it's a bit like people's fixation on FTP which is only part of the story. I find it genuinely fascinating looking at other people's power output / cadence / HR / w/kg stats. It's a bit sad really, but also slightly amazing.
Does anyone have a problem with their turbo wandering across the floor? Smooth wooden floor here which meant I ended up pressed against the TV stand!
Nope. Rubber mat?
😆 Nope- Got an old Tacx floor mat.
Nope, but it does jump a bit when I'm sprinting 😳
Led to the power lead falling out at one point.
Yes if I sprint at 600+ watts on the tiled floor.
My new mat that'll fit the width of the trainer arrived at the shop yesterday so hopefully it won't move anymore.
No Zwifting for me today as I had a colonoscopy this morning (all good), and no going outside as its snowing heavily once more in leafy South Lanarkshire, but my reported avg FTP jumped up to 250 yesterday, so I'm pleased with that.
I'm also close to unlocking Level 10 and all the wonderful things* that will bring to me!
*some map sections, I believe.
could've gone for ZTRshartride hill intervals at half two 😀No Zwifting for me today as I had a colonoscopy this morning
scaredypants
could've gone for ZTRshartride hill intervals at half two
A better time would have been last night at any point between 6pm and 9pm....