Poah wins in the “missing the point completely” awards
Why? Is it because I think we live in a free society and people can use pit girls if they want and ladies can be pit girls if they want? Who are you to tell people what they cannot do? If you don't like it don't watch it.
A qick fact check says you get a bottle of water for .63e and a can of coke for .85e in Mexico. And yes the Mexicans would be stupid to drink the coke given the health effects.
A few pages back I said:
I hope the ladies that do it have a ball and enjoy spending their hard earned. They aren’t the problem
I have no issues with the ladies, my problem is with the likes of Monster, both their product and the way they market it. I've met lots of podium girls in my time. I did displays at things like the truck grand prixs, tractor pulling, fairs corporate events where I was part of the show along with all the other people paid to entertain. Drivers, pilots, dancers, podium girls, they're professional people. The choreagraphy of one display I did for GM in Barcelona was done by an ex-Pan's people and it was all very slick.
The problem in my eyes is with Monster. They define the event and its accessories. With the same resources they could do a show that would entertain and impress in the way the show the Pan's people choregrapher put on did. For a start there were both male and female dancers. Other may disagree but once you have men who are as sexy as the women on the same stage and being paid the same wage you can no longer call it a sexist show.
doesn’t mean you have the right to call them idiots for making a choice to earn money or appropriate things with what they do.
Dear god are you really that hard of thinking?
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/14/world/americas/mexico-coca-cola-diabetes.html
first google result about coke and water.
is availabilty not comparable to cost, you are being a pedant because of what?
Dear god are you really that hard of thinking?
Possibly yes, I had covid recently ;). I note you refrained from actually answering the questions.
Would you put a stop to that?
Would you book her as a billboard at a sales pitch/IT expo?
The point isn’t individual people, or if those people can sell sex/their attractiveness (there’s places both IRL and online for that, very lucrative too I understand), it’s if they should be used/there be demand for them to sell things totally unreleased to sex/attractiveness, or why there is demand for it. You say it’s not appropriate for corporate IT, what do you think it is appropriate for?
You say it’s not appropriate for corporate IT
What I actually said is that I didn't believe Sales (referring to my specific area of IT sales) should trade on sexuality.
I don’t think it’s out of order to say it would be stupid to drink this:
Are chemicals even more dangerous when they're in French?
What's actually in there, melodrama aside? Water, vast amounts of sugar, flavourings and trace amounts of mild stimulants? I agree that it's unwise to consume drinks with monsterous amounts of sugar and I wouldn't; I'm less convinced that a block of scary-looking words is constructive.
What I actually said is that I didn’t believe Sales (referring to my specific area of IT sales) should trade on sexuality.
Are the pit girls not selling Energy drinks?
There's lots of conflation here of three (or more) issues.
The point the OP was making, and others have built on, is around the lack of equality in how a sports event is promoted. They commented on the impact this has on their wife (presumably because it's embarrassing to watch something publicised in a sexist way) and their child (because many sports have moved on in this respect, and as a parent they would like to see sports carried out and marketed in an equitable way).
The factors around whether things are marketed in a sexualised way (arbitrarily) or what it means for the individual models, or women wanting to get into this line of work, are entirely separate points, which perhaps deserve their own thread if people want to discuss them.
EDIT: On re-reading the early posts, perhaps the point around arbitrary sexualisation of sport publicity was a factor in the OP.
NEXT EDIT: ...although this is still a separate issue to the point around equality, and it may be helpful to avoid conflating the issues if possible.
Are the pit girls not selling Energy drinks?
No, by definition they are not.
They’re an advert for the brand. Designed to encourage people to buy the product the brand sells. They might not be dishing them out of a fridge in return for cash, but they are definitely part of the process.
OK, so as men, we need to be able to talk to the other gender about this. Otherwise are we not part of the "problem"? It seems that on here that are most against the sexualisation do not seem to be able to communicate without getting angry or calling people idiots, those people also seem to be not willing to convey how they would talk to the person that is being sexualised.
The original poster asked “It’s 2022, what am I supposed to say to my wife and daughter whilst watching the BMX (which was actually awesome)?”
Would you not agree he needs to be “man” enough to talk to them the same as the people involved in the promotion, it's the same discussion?
those people also seem to be not willing to convey how they would talk to the person that is being sexualised
As an equal and without even a hint of chat up in my case, just someone doing their job. I don't think I got beyond banalities with most. I had a good chat with one who was quite hard on me and said I wasn't outgoing or ambitious enough. She was probably right.
K - a couple of thoughts:
1) You're assuming that everybody contributing here is a man - not sure that's the case, or that it matters. The issue raised here is one that is well researched and understood by people of all sexes/gender identities. These sort of corporate behaviours have been judged by most of society to belong in the past (alongside racism, etc) and the OP was pointing out how the organisers haven't yet caught up with this.
2) For what it's worth, most people these days would describe "man up" as a sexist phrase as it associates the male gender with bravery and doing the right thing, etc. Not raising this because I'm offended or upset, but in the context of a discussion about sexual equality it might be worth using language that is sensitive in that respect at least 🙂
3) Again, I don't think this debate was started on the basis of an issue around individuals (i.e. the models) being sexualised - rather it's about how the sport as a whole is publicised with sexuality and its being done in an unequal way.
Possibly yes, I had covid recently ;). I note you refrained from actually answering the questions.
Seeing as how you have clearly refrained from reading what loads of people including me have written dozens of times it seems pointless.
For the record I don't think pit girls are stupid.
just you
AA c'mon now, Why are you reverting to debasing yourself with this and not engaging in sensible debate?
And yes, I'm happy to admit I haven't read between the last page I posted and the page I posted on today, as it quick skim makes it obvious thats its a bunch of circular arguments with no real conclusion, perhaps because people disagree with each other. And because they don't agree with you doesn't automatically label them as idiots btw.
They’re an advert for the brand. Designed to encourage people to buy the product the brand sells.
Tom, so am I. I think we are reaching the same conclusion as we did several days ago, which I think we both agree upon. The exception is that I don't think anyone has the automatic right to fire someone because they decide that they are "too sexy".
Thinksta
the op is he not a man asking the question? Pretty sure there was no response to the question of if there were any women on here.
I didn't say "Man up" it's a term I detest.
I know the debate isn't about the individuals doing the job, read what I wrote. I don't write much so it shouldn't be hard for you?
Actual woman, occasionally drop in here, don't post much any more.
I think there are bigger things to worry about that some women (and we'll get into that) are used to sell shit to us. I think it's so ubiquitous I probably don't even notice it anymore. How is the BooHoo adverts for the teeny swimsuit any different to the girl holding a can of undrinkable crap?
I guess the question is did these sorts of images put me off what I wanted to do? Answer no not really. I want to ride my bike and go running, and when I do those things (like running) my face goes a sort of beetroot colour and my lips and mouth go this sort of white shade, so it's just about the least sexy thing ever. So I don't think sports = sexy times. does anyone? I don't think the fact that some people are there solely to look nice makes any difference to some-one interested in a sport, or whether they think they can do that sport.
Also like most women on the planet I do not, repeat do not look like these girls do. They're weird and almost inhuman, they have teeny waists and long legs and enormous boobs, and glossy hair, I don't know anyone who even comes close to looking like that. They only really exist in this world of adverts, and again I'm not sure that because they exist somehow something sexual assault. to be blunt from my position y'all don't need excuses to do what you want anyway. which I'm sorry sounds shitty, but truth hurts I guess.
I don’t think anyone has the automatic right to fire someone because they decide that they are “too sexy”.
Eh? Where did I say that?
I guess the question is did these sorts of images put me off what I wanted to do? Answer no not really.
Thanks for posting. I think this is the First Lady to post on this thread, and whilst you obviously don’t speak for all woman, your opinion/insight is IMO the only one posted so far I’m remotely interested in
K - Apologies - you're right, you didn't say "man up" - you said "man enough". Same thing right?
No, I said ("man" enough) . Being as this is discussing the subject that we are and it was a discussion dominated by men, calling people stupid because they are not emotionally intelligent enough to have a conversation.
Again, originally is a man not asking what to tell his family about why he was watching something he felt uncomfortable watching with them around? If he cannot have this conversation with them is that not part of the problem?
tpbiker: Are you interested in the views of people looking out for how children are raised? Are you interested in research carried out and the evidence on the effects of this sort of corporate behaviour on kids (boys and girls)?
It's not just those directly effected by inequalities that have valid views on it.
Also, like others have pointed out, such inequalities may be perpetrated by people in the same "group" (i.e. women) that are harmed by them. This shouldn't effect people of either gender pointing out issues and seeking to improve things.
I think there are bigger things to worry about
There are always bigger things to worry about but this is a discussion on this particular small thing.
I think you are underestimating the cumulative effect of these small things and the impact they have, even if you are not impacted yourself.
OK, so as men, we need to be able to talk to the other gender about this. Otherwise are we not part of the “problem”? It seems that on here that are most against the sexualisation do not seem to be able to communicate without getting angry or calling people idiots, those people also seem to be not willing to convey how they would talk to the person that is being sexualised.
Breaking this down:
> OK, so as men, we need to be able to talk to the other gender about this.
Correct. Are you doing that?
> Otherwise are we not part of the “problem”?
There's no "otherwise" here. If we assume for the sake of argument that there is in fact a problem then it is one we are all part of.
> It seems that on here that are most against the sexualisation do not seem to be able to communicate without getting angry or calling people idiots,
No-one is getting angry and the only people being called idiots are, well, idiots. Sorry.
> those people also seem to be not willing to convey how they would talk to the person that is being sexualised.
I don't think anyone has been asked to convey that so I'm not sure where you're getting "unwilling" from. It's a question you may ask if you like, but it's rather missing the point (again).
The whole retaliatory argument here seems to be a straw man, everyone in disagreement is arguing against things no-one else is suggesting. Have Muslims banned Christmas again yet?
Thinksta. I’m interested in whether having girls promote events such as at the x games puts woman off competing in sports
So far the only one woman who has offered an opinion says no it doesn’t
Im not remotely interested in the opinion of a bunch of blokes arguing about it on the internet such as yourself I’m afraid
And once again, to clarify my position on the subject, I think the concept is outdated, but I’m unconvinced it has the effect some of you seem to think it has.
Eh? Where did I say that?
For clarity you didn't, it was part of an earlier opinion from someone else.
So I don’t think sports = sexy times. does anyone?
Rule 34, Em. 😁
AA c’mon now, Why are you reverting to debasing yourself with this and not engaging in sensible debate?
Because you either haven't read what's been posted in multiple occasion, cannot understand it or are being deliberately obtuse in trying to move the debate into something it isn't and has never been!
So far the only one woman who has offered an opinion says no it doesn’t
I didn't realise that all women had to announce themselves before posting.
Admittedly, the demographics of this forum mean there is a good chance you're right. However, just because one poster has announced themselves as a woman and kind of agreed with your point doesn't mean you're right. For all we know emsz could be Amy Coney Barrett's STW logon. Would being of the opinion that these girls were fine so long as they were subservient to their husband's wishes as per their duty as handmaids be enough to overrule the fact that she's a woman?
to be blunt from my position y’all don’t need excuses to do what you want anyway. which I’m sorry sounds shitty, but truth hurts I guess.
This is the part that jumped out to me. Yeah, it's true. If you're a man and you want to sexually assault a woman you can and the odds that you will get away with it with zero consequences are very much in your favour.
It's not something that is ever going to be entirely solved by tougher law enforcement so while I agree with what she said I don't think that just giving up is the answer.
I don't know if not exposing my son and daughter to this kind of thing is going to help. However, it might help and it can't hurt so I'll be avoiding the X-games for the foreseeable future.
Thanks for posting. I think this is the First Lady to post on this thread, and whilst you obviously don’t speak for all woman, your opinion/insight is IMO the only one posted so far I’m remotely interested in
People posting on this forum are I would imagine a somewhat skewed part of society.
Every year I have to ask my tutor group how they mostly get to school as requested by some faceless person in the local council. Every year we have a discussion afterwards on why it's only boys that ride bikes to school, mostly the answer is because it's just not what girls do and you'd be laughed at if you did, many girls cannot even ride bikes, don't recall a boy ever saying he can't ride a bike. Now clearly a lot of girls do ride bikes to school, 3 on my road, but far far more boys do. I remember starting a thread about this years ago. A load of blokes just said yeah but why do you want to make girls ride to school if they don't want to. I don't want to force anyone I would just prefer to live in a world where girls (and boys for that matter) were free to make their own choices based on what they want not on what others think.
It's the same with these pit girls, no problem with them doing it, just wish it didn't exist as it negatively impacts the views of lots of people, small changes can have big effects at a population level.
However, just because one poster has announced themselves as a woman and kind of agreed with your point doesn’t mean you’re right.
I’m not saying I’m right! I’m suspect I am but that’s why I’m interested in female opinion on the matter. I did acknowledge that Emsz didn’t speak for all woman
I’m not the one on this thread calling out people for being stupid and claiming I know best am I?
I’m not the one on this thread calling out people for being stupid and claiming I know best am I?
Let's go all the way back to the original question.
It’s 2022, what am I supposed to say to my wife and daughter whilst watching the BMX (which was actually awesome)?
The simple answer is, you can't watch it in front of them. In fact, you shouldn't watch it at all or support it in any way.
Meanwhile, on the front page of The Guardian, there are three rape survivors stories and that's just for today.
People are getting frustrated at all the hand waving, whataboutery, and strawmen arguments and are calling people names.
And to top it all, a woman comes along and says, 'you guys are going to do what you want anyway so it won't make any difference' and you treat that like a supportive statement.
I don’t know if not exposing my son and daughter to this kind of thing is going to help. However, it might help and it can’t hurt so I’ll be avoiding the X-games for the foreseeable future.
Maybe exposing them to it and explaining what they're seeing is a more beneficial approach over shielding them from it?
(I'm not saying it is, I have no idea and my 'not a parent' credentials have been called into question more than once in the last few days. Just throwing it out there for consideration.)
Maybe exposing them to it and explaining what they’re seeing is a more beneficial approach over shielding them from it?
This is my approach, my son watched a documentary about Mohamad Ali and become a bit obsessed with boxing. He sees the women parading around with the boards between rounds and thinks it's ridiculous. We talked about, he seems to understand why it's a bad thing, not stupid my boy.
A_A this is what I'm getting at, talking to the children (of all ages maybe...), If you can't explain it to a child...
We are in an area where fairly lucky as there are a reasonable number of female riders at the top of their game, they have a great influence on the younger girls, but those girls are also mostly the ones who's parents can afford to get them to kids coaching sessions.
If you can’t explain it to a child…
To be fair, it's consistently proving quite difficult to explain things to adults.
Maybe exposing them to it and explaining what they’re seeing is a more beneficial approach over shielding them from it?
In this case it would strike me as finding an 'educational' excuse to watch something I wanted to watch anyway. Should I also watch and explain Enoch Powell speeches with them in order to expose them to racist views?
Mohamad Ali was a complex figure who had a lot of positive views and a lot of less positive views to put it politely. I can see there being some benefit to watching his stuff and explaining things.
BMX at the X-games, not so much. One family not watching something feels like a tiny, useless, and insignificant gesture (because it is). But who knows, maybe if we all did it they would get the message and join the rest of us in the 21st century.
But probably not.
Maybe exposing them to it and explaining what they’re seeing is a more beneficial approach over shielding them from it?
I think this is a good approach, only because I can't decide wether to condemn it or not, if the kids condemn it then thats up to them. I'll probably end up conforming to their views.
Cougar - I'm not sure even the most experienced parents are qualified. So you may well ahve plenty of valid insight.
One family not watching something feels like a tiny, useless, and insignificant
See also one family driving less or buying less plastic or all manner of small things.
Greipel. Not sure that needs a caption.
I have attempted, as a man, to explain these things to an actual woman. I hear they love that sort of thing.
So watching the end of a TDF stage a few years ago my wife happened to look up during the presentation and was moved to ask "what's with the women then?" I calmly replied "I dunno, I think it's a bit of a hangover given it was founded as a promotional event. It's a bit embarrassing."
Accumulation of the above is probably why they ended it
Should I also watch and explain Enoch Powell speeches with them in order to expose them to racist views?
Should you pretend racism doesn't exist?
🤷♂️ I don't know. I don't have the answers, I have no clue what I'd do for the best in such circumstances. This is one of the lesser reasons why I chose not to reproduce, I don't want the responsibility and I don't envy those who have.
Given sufficient degree of cognitive maturity though I can't immediately see how "talking about stuff" is a bad thing.
Should I also watch and explain Enoch Powell speeches with them in order to expose them to racist views?
Maybe, its history isn't it, no harm in learning from it.
I don't think that censoring what your kids watch is a particularly contentious subject. It's something that almost all parents do for a variety of reasons.
In this case, I doubt my 6 and 9 year old kids would pay much attention to the Monster Energy girls. They would just be something there in the background subtly reinforcing the idea that boys ride bikes while girls stand around wearing skimpy outfits.
I would have to actually pause the program, point out the women, and then I would definitely start to feel like some kind of pervy weirdo.
'Notice the size of the breasts in relation to the size the waist. You don't see many women in the supermarket with proportions like that, do you? Now, let's just zoom in on the buttocks for a minute and I think you'll find...'
I would also have to explain what objectifying women meant. I would then have to explain about how viewing people as being not entirely human leads to abuse, violence, and assault.
Then we could have lots of fun conversations where I detail all the different ways abuse can manifest itself. Maybe I could just read this article to them and discuss it:
Don't get me wrong, I definitely could explain all this to my kids but the X-Games doesn't feel like the best 'teachable' moment. I'd rather just censor their viewing in this particular case and avoid the subconscious reinforcement of the gender stereotypes.
And avoid giving X-games the viewing figures, of course.
