We have a daughter that suffers badly with social anxiety at times – this can be around friendships, socialising, school and pretty much anything that goes on outside her home. Basically she cannot cope with any focus ever being on her, she judges herself and believes that people are judging her. We have things in place to help her cope and one of these things is at school where, for the last two years, her Year Manager and teachers all know that she needs to be seated towards the back of classes (so she is more hidden) and that she should never be called on to answer questions. This generally works, apart from when she has stand-in teachers that sometimes move classes or ask her to answer questions.
When there is an incident it can disregulate her for the whole day, meaning she can't focus on subsequent classes and sometimes has to take herself away to 'reintegration' (which is meant for naughty kids but her YM understands and allows it) rather than attend other classes.
When there is an incident, she will also then find it hard to go to school the next time the same lesson is happening and sometimes she misses a part or even whole day of school (she's at 87% attendance this year because of it. Although this isn't ideal, she still gets very good grades (7s through to 9s).
Anyway, this is her GCSE year and we are trying our hardest to ensure she attends as much as possible and the school themselves have reiterated the importance of attendance, having a Parents' Evening where they drummed it in to us all.
So... (ironically) one of the HoYs who was stood there telling us of the importance of attendance is also our daughter's English teacher and called on her in class a couple of weeks ago, so we reminded her and the YM (again) that she can't cope (she then missed the next lesson with this teacher). Yesterday she had another lesson with the teacher and she called on Evie again, which led to a really difficult day with disrupted learning and she was so mentally exhausted by her last lesson (maths) that she couldn't attend and went to reintegration again. So the teacher's action has caused two days of disrupted learning and also caused our daughter to miss another lesson.
I really feel like going full-on nuclear at this stage as it is so frustrating – it is directly this one teacher's actions causing almost all of our daughter's missed attendance (and more importantly poor mental health). I don't know if it is deliberate, stupidity, forgetfulness or what, but I am so angry.
So, what would STW do? Go straight to a formal complaint? Remind her (and the HoY) again about the measures we have in place, ask for a face to face meeting? I am so angry!
(PS, sorry for the long post)!
I would meet with the HoY and the student welfare officer and ask again for a note to be sent to all her subject teachers so it doesn't happen.
Also your daughter may need some help to get over this. See the GP and see if a referral to CAMHS or other service is available. There may be long waits though so you might need a quicker private provider to help. See what your GP recommends. Some schools also have in house counseling so if offered that can be immediate.
Hope it all improves for you.
And as below. Don't go nuclear. Keep everyone on side. Your daughter will want to feel supported at school, not involved in some adversarial situation because of her parents.
Heres some Irony and let me say i completely feel and have lived your frustrations , my eldest is exactly the same.
By nuclear I assume you dont mean my nuclear of removing her totally from the school then starting a group with 300 other parents who are organising legal proceedings against the school police and education authority. And thats before the policy which they say doesnt exist of offrolling the poorest performing kids with the most needs comes to the chat
Two sides to the argument here and I see both but one is not my problem
Schools massively underfunded in their send needs so cannot afford to provide the level of support required, its a business at the end of the day no matter how much lipstick you put on the pig, poor performers or high maintenance dont generate good ofstead or money
I dont run the school if the HOY cant manage to cut his/her cloth with what they have then you can expect the legal repercussions of failing to protect childrens mental wellbeing and health and progress
Some kids will be 18 before they even get to see a specialist ,being put through the meat grinder of the system with their particular flavour of add/adhd (insert other here) being the only option which is massively damaging , problem doesnt belong to the school after GCSEs
It took 9 months to get a private diagnosis for ours luckily we had the money but many others do not and even if you can afford the private system is now chokka with parents looking for answers as to why their darlings are not flourishing that once you have an answer the school is still in the same position , they just cant help
Not a helpful attitude but
Its going to need a legal precedent to be set to get the government and education authority doing their effing job properly and the only way to do this it seems after 3 years of trying to work with the school, is to lawyer up, the feedback I get from other parents is the school complaints policy is a closed shop complaints system with no positive outcome for the children
Maybe facebook, digging a bit deeper witb other parents whos kids attend the school is best port in this storm
my child is now much more engaged in learning and goes to college once a month to asess her progress, it has literally been massive improvements all round
A polite reminder with HoY and explain what the 'actions' caused. Could be forgetfulness/stressed teacher - you don't know.
Could be forgetfulness/stressed teacher – you don’t know
Oh its pretty easy to figure the teachers are overrun and then stressed out of the 200 days the Senco at our school works she has 360 kids to assess even at a day per child you can see the system is well and truly broken
I have no doubt in my mind the passion for her work in that woman will eventually run out
We had similar with our daughter a while back, some of the teachers, and consistently the same ones didn't appear to get the memo about additional support needs. and this was a school with a specialist unit in it as well as mainstream. My daughter was in mainstream, but the mechanisms for managing support were there.
We ended up removing her from certain classes, or for mornings/afternoons, otherwise she'd end up in a toilet cubicle to get away from it all.
the first few times we did it we ended up with the attendance officer at our door, but once we'd engaged with them, it became more formal and the support improved greatly. not to say there weren't hiccups, they have to manage a lot of kids, so it's a hard task, but on the whole, things worked out.
There were lots of meeting though. pretty much monthly meetings with HoY and the school support services for a few years.
Isn't this the second issue you've had with this daughter/school recently (moved sets in the other thread?)
If so, and it is your daughters GCSE year you need to stay calm not go nuclear as others have pointed out above.
schools are just not geared up to handle the number of kids now presenting with additional support requirements like your daughter.
Colleges too. My partner still teaches in further education and seemingly most of her day is taken up with trying to manage the complex needs of the bulk of her students. Massive amount of anxiety-based issues, gender/identity, home stuff, housing etc.
It seems like she has about five minutes to actually do any teaching of her subject. They don't get any PLA (personal learning advisor) support. They're expected to cope.
Incredibly difficult for all involved to teach and to keep up with the sheer level of emotional support needs, so whilst this person should be reminded, I feel like they should also have a bit of empathy.
Your daughter sounds like she does similar to what I used to do whenever I got asked anything I would explode internally and not attend afterwards.
Don't go ballistic with them but just keep the discussion going and reiterate your daughter's needs I'd say.
On a side note how is she going to cope post GCSE? Education at that levels requires interaction with teachers.
That's a problem we will deal with when we get to it.
Isn’t this the second issue you’ve had with this daughter/school recently (moved sets in the other thread?)
Yes it is. She's now back in the top set as the 'blip' was clearly a blip and the school quickly recognised that (although of course it added extra stress for our daughter unnecessarily)
Combine that with the number of parents looking for excuses for their kids poor performance who also tend to be very vocal a more measured response may yield results.
We're not looking for excuses – her grades are very good. We are just wanting support
See the GP and see if a referral to CAMHS or other service is available.
Already tried two different private routes. She doesn't like focus, this causes focus (and subsequent distress). I know it is 'head in the sand' to ignore it, but it certainly hasn't helped. She will get the support she needs when she is ready.
The whole thing is massively frustrating as we aren't asking for much – just that her teachers leave her to get on. She doesn't need any intervention until a teacher makes her a focus, then it spirals.
But overall, I know I shouldn't go in too hard, thanks for reminding me. I think we will just see if we can get a meeting with the teacher to sort it out. Frustratingly, it's an English teacher, our daughter wants to do A level English, and the teacher is the one who would likely be her teacher so we don't want to burn bridges.
I would suggest a face-to-face meeting and use it to clearly explain (again) to the teacher and their relevant boss, the impact of your daughter being asked to answer questions (ie missing further classes).
Sounds like you are coping pretty well and have good solutions in place (but if those solutions aren't followed then that's rubbish).
It may be helpful in the meeting to say how pleased you are with all the other teachers who are able to follow the suggestions.
If the grades are very good I'd not be worrying about her attendance record and what the teachers think of that. Think of the incidents as bumps in the road.
The problem with attendance is that it eventually leads to the local authority getting jumpy, threatening letters and ultimately a court summons for the parents under the Education Act. Worrying for parents (fines/jail threats etc) but also another massive cause of stress for the child. But 87% isn't that bad yet, so whatever you can do now with the teachers being reminded, and on side will help massively.
As somebody who used to be a teenage girl, who was very bright but didn't like being called on in class - handling this by letting her avoid the problem might not be the best thing. Perhaps the teacher is testing if she has changed, giving her the chance to prove that she can handle the attention, the sky won't fall in etc. She won't gain confidence in herself, and that is what she needs, by hiding.
".If the grades are very good I’d not be worrying about her attendance record and what the teachers think of that. Think of the incidents as bumps in the road."
Definitely do not do this.
It seems to me your daughter is almost certainly ASD and probably has hyper focus disorder as well. These incidents are not bumps in the road, they are signs she is extremely stressed and the human body can only cope with so much stress. I know this from experience with my daughter. Without early and comprehensive intervention there may well be a big crash coming down the road as she can no longer summon up the energy to continually mask and has a breakdown. I'm sorry to scare you but its not a good situation and your HOY clearly does not understand how serious it is.
I'm really busy right now so no time to write a long post but please PM me as I have just been through exactly this.
Perhaps the teacher is testing if she has changed, giving her the chance to prove that she can handle the attention, the sky won’t fall in etc.
But it is not the teacher's choice to be making – there will be time for that at some point in the future but it certainly isn't now. We know because we have seen what can happen – her teacher has no idea whatsoever so cannot be making that decision. Yesterday's incident is a perfect example of how spectacularly wrong she got it – it was the first lesson of the day, she struggled in every single lesson after and couldn't go into her final lesson at all – so if it was a 'test', it cost our daughter a full day of education.
The time to show a young woman that she is capable and build her confidence is ALL the time. Trying to control what is happening around her all the time clearly isn't working. I feel for your daughter I really do, and I hope this all resolves for her.
Trying to control what is happening around her all the time clearly isn’t working.
Conversely, if we don't try, she could not (emphasis on *could* not *would*) try something herself and she wouldn't attend school, wouldn't volunteer at the kennels, wouldn't go to netball training or matches, wouldn't go to friends' parties, wouldn't go to puppy training classes etc. She would spend her free time sitting in her room looking at social media. We have to do something.
Trying to control what is happening around her all the time clearly isn’t working.
This, million times, this. If the school should have done anything here, it's to manage yours and her expectations of what they can realistically do to support her and suggest strategies for when things don't go the way she is expecting.
See the GP and see if a referral to CAMHS or other service is available. There may be long waits though
Long waits is an understatement. Started the process with our child at 5, finally got diagnosis (ADD) at 22.
One option that may help is a 'prop' for your daughter to remind the teacher and make her feel better. A simple piece of paper that she can point to if called on that says 'no questions' or similar? Avoids her having to answer, or explain why she can't.
Would need to be agreed by the school of course.
If the school should have done anything here, it’s to manage yours and her expectations of what they can realistically do to support her
It isn't at all difficult – we are only asking the teachers to not single her out in lessons – nothing else whatsoever. It's when they forget that more of the school's time is needed.
"As somebody who used to be a teenage girl, who was very bright but didn’t like being called on in class – handling this by letting her avoid the problem might not be the best thing. Perhaps the teacher is testing if she has changed, giving her the chance to prove that she can handle the attention, the sky won’t fall in etc. She won’t gain confidence in herself, and that is what she needs, by hiding."
Unfortunately this is precisely the wrong approach, no matter how well meaning it is. Before I had first hand experience and three years of a very sharp learning curve involving doctors, therapists and ASD specialists - not to mention doing a lot of my own research it was exactly how I thought. It is in fact the best way to break a young person suffering from these disorders, especially a girl as they are far better at masking the symptoms until its too late to avoid a crisis. Boys with ASD are much more vocal, normally cause trouble earlier in the school program and are therefore identified quicker but girls get left as they 'are so good in class but so quiet' 'a delight to teach but so shy' 'so polite and lovely but she needs to speak up more in class' No No No she doesn't need to speak up more in class, or rather she does but it will take a lot more than the teacher calling on her to make it happen. This lot more will probably include a diagnosis, therapy and almost certainly medication. Three things I was well against at the start of my daughters journey but I've seen her go from a normal high achieving child on the outside to the brink of insanity and now thanks to diagnosis, therapy and medication she is hopefully back to a semblance of happiness and at University. We are still taking it one day at a time though.
A diagnosis is the number one most important part of the solution as it unlocks all the other pieces of the jigsaw. Unfortunately you simply cannot get this on the NHS in time for it to be of benefit. Privately it will cost between £1500 and £4000 and for a proper clinic diagnosis you need to be referred by a GP
Its the best money we ever spent and I'd do it again in a heartbeat.
Once you have this you can get an Education, Health and Care Plan EHCP This is an amazing document that sets out the educational and health special needs that will allow your daughter to begin to function normally. It varies from child to child but essentially its a legal document that means schools and universities take things very seriously. My daughter had access to a quiet space at all times, was allowed to leave lessons and return unasked, was allowed to take exams in a smaller room etc Now she's at Exeter Uni they are being amazing and have so much support. All this is laid out in the ECHP. Its pretty much the only reason she can go there.
The other reasons she has made huge progress are therapy and medication but that's more private so I wouldn't talk about it on an open forum.
But it all starts with a diagnosis. Without that you'll always end up with people saying what the well meaning person said above which is vary versions of just pull yourself together and you're fine and the HYO thinking he can just get her to snap out of it.......THAT WILL NOT HAPPEN
Unfortunately an EHCP isn't always enough to unlock resources that just aren't there. Seems you've made good progress with her development but I still wonder what will happen at the next step in her life, Exeter Uni sound great, will an employer make such allowances, will your daughter get through an interview?
I'm not trying to be callous but outside help may (or more often may not) be available during education years but at some point our kids need to have their own coping strategies in place to cope on their own. I agree the snap out of it approach rarely if ever works but there's a balancing act between developing self contained coping strategies and relying on third party support.
That’s a problem we will deal with when we get to it.
Probably be too late by then.
"a balancing act between developing self contained coping strategies and relying on third party support"
I completely agree hence the other two pillars of the solution, therapy for the coping strategies and medication to provide scaffolding inside which these strategies can be built.
I feel sorry for her situation. I do struggle with the idea that asking a child a question in class is singling them out. If they were always the child asked then yes, but if she is being asked in a similar frequency to all the kids then I don’t see how she is being singled out.
I do struggle with the idea that asking a child a question in class is singling them out. If they were always the child asked then yes, but if she sibling asked in a similar frequency to all the kids then I don’t see how she is being singled out.
But you aren't struggling with anxiety – she cannot cope with focus being on her.
I feel for your daughter but you're trying to make her (and your) problem, everyone else's.
I don't know what the solution is, but going nuclear is not it.
If she's having this problem in school, Real life is really going to **** her up.
Sorry have time to read all the thread but read op's post...most likely this is a simple mistake. I teach about 9x30 kids all are individual with different needs, remembering everything about everyone whilst under the pressure of teaching is hard. I have in the past found that in a similar situation having the child have a red card or similar to wave at me when I get it wrong can help. Your daughter may not be comfortable doing this so just having a red card she gets out and puts next to her pencil case may also help or something even more subtle as agreed by the teacher. I very much doubt this is being done on purpose so a chat to the teacher and an agreement if some non verbal signal can be very helpful...just the chat may help it to sink in fully for the teacher.
johndoh
Free Member
I do struggle with the idea that asking a child a question in class is singling them out
But you aren’t struggling with anxiety – she cannot cope with focus being on her
"Singled out" suggests she's the only person receiving this treatment and that's not true. She's not being singled out, she's being treated the same as everybody else, but she's not able to engage like the rest of the class. I'm not saying there's no grounds to speak to the school, but accusing the teacher of singling her out is, IMO, unfair. If the only pupil this teacher asks for an answer from in class is your daughter then yes, she is being singled out.
I'd also bear in mind that the teacher probably teaches hundreds of kids each week, so maybe they've just made a genuine mistake in asking her for an answer.
By coincidence - a related teenage girl issue in the Guardian advice column - seen from her perspective and some helpful insights:
I’m 14 and stressed out with the pressure of school and friendships | Friendship | The Guardian
most likely this is a simple mistake.
It really may be just that, but she is the Head of Department (so you'd assume she has the skills to perform to a higher level) and she has done it twice since the new year started (we reminded her again after the first incident). Anyway, we have requested a meeting to discuss it and hopefully when she fully understands the bigger picture (ie, how it doesn't just throw her out for a few minutes, it affects her whole day). For reference, since the first incident, she hadn't been able to go back into that class until yesterday when the teacher did the same thing again and we fully expect her to not be able to go in next week now as she has lost all trust in the teacher.
If she’s having this problem in school, Real life is really going to **** her up.
Yes, we are fully aware of that, but thanks for reminding us.
“Singled out” suggests she’s the only person receiving this treatment and that’s not true.
To be clear – I have not claimed she is being singled out – I responded to someone else who used that language.
Edit - sorry, I did say it. I didn't mean it in that way, I simply meant that her teachers know not to ask her questions, not to make her a focus.
It isn’t at all difficult – we are only asking the teachers to not single her out in lessons – nothing else whatsoever.
You ARE asking the school to single her out - by being the only one not asked questions in class.
It really may be just that, but she is the Head of Department (so you’d assume she has the skills to perform to a higher level)
From the other side - has all her classes to teach as well as ensuring delivery of quality teaching across all her teachers, and dealing with all their problems as well as her own. And has just made a mistake.
Also - and at the risk of tough love (again)
You asked for advice, you can't only listen to the advice that validates what you think and push back on against that which is different.
Edit. Post deleted.
As an aside, and definitely not saying this is the case with the op's daughter.
I've lost count of the number of pupils over the years who I've been told you absolutely must/must not do x,y or z with only to find that it just isn't the case. Often it has more to do with the parents' needs than those of the pupil.
In some schools you get bombarded with so many requests of this nature that it's impossible to keep track of them all and this can lead to the ones that really matter getting lost in the noise. It's like the boy who cried wolf.
Coming from someonw who struggled with the same thing, although nowhere near this level:
Conversely, if we don’t try, she could not (emphasis on *could* not *would*) try something herself and she wouldn’t attend school, wouldn’t volunteer at the kennels, wouldn’t go to netball training or matches, wouldn’t go to friends’ parties, wouldn’t go to puppy training classes etc. She would spend her free time sitting in her room looking at social media. We have to do something.
So she manages to interact with people at these other events and locations. is it just the school classroom thats an issue or have kennels, netball etc become safe spaces over time?
Worth remembering that y11 english is still mandatory for everyone and as a shy person in a big school (previously you mentioned setting) there's 30 people in the room she may not know well or at all. Next year things will improve greatly as not only is it voluntary attendance, she will have only 4? subjects and almost certianly smaller classes. Should see it becoming more of a "friendship" group so hopefully a less stressful situation.
Good luck johndoh! I've no helpful advice I'm afraid, but it sounds to me like you're doing a brilliant job with your daughter and I hope you can get this problem teacher fully with the programme.
The time to show a young woman that she is capable and build her confidence is ALL the time.
GCSE exams year is maybe not the time to be mucking about with major changes. First year of A' levels may allow for some shift in position but now is not the time, plus there's an opportunity to stretch the next set of examination subjects over 3 years. The extra maturity will help the young woman get her head into gear for coping.
Really wondering what is going through the minds of all the folk coming on here to tell you how challenging the next stage of school, life, whatever will be. As if you can just say 'oh yeah, better stop my daughter from having anxiety' and fix it all up. I really hope @johndoe that you have the strength to put the opinions of the know-it-all-internet blokes into the appropriate perspective.
Anyway, fwiw, when I was a teacher there were numerous times I made mistakes with the support needs of kids I taught and I'm mortified by them all. I tried my best to learn from those mistakes and managed to repair a lot of the relationships (including a case that has some parallels with your daughter). I think you've done the right thing to have a good old rant about it and it sounds like you intend to try and mend what needs fixing. Best of luck to you.
I really hope @johndoe that you have the strength to put the opinions of the know-it-all-internet blokes into the appropriate perspective.
Sounds like you think this is one of those threads where everyone wades in with unqualified opinions. There are a few posts that might fall into that category but the majority are from people with useful perspectives. There are those who identify with the op's daughter, several experienced teachers and some other interesting views.
When I was teaching I would often have kids who were painfully shy or reticent for all sorts of reasons. I was a firm believer in 'reading around the class,' Shakespeare plays etc, but would simply pass a kid who didn't want to do it and it didn't necessarily affect their achievements. Just a word to the teacher (HoYs can be very busy and preoccupied) should suffice. A student who was severely dyslexic after a while put up her hand and said, 'Sir, I'll read', I had to look down with tears in the corner of my eyes. She did it and went on to do really well.
Many parents are disengaged or negative about schools but for most teachers a 'quiet word' would be noted and acted on.
the know-it-all-internet blokes
Not all blokes FWIW
John, what you are trying to achieve is completely reasonable and achievable. Maybe you're overempathising and internalising your daughter's stress. Just send a note saying how your daughter experiences anxiety in a number of contexts and that you would be most grateful if they gave her a bit of slack and you look forward to discussing her progress at the next parents' evening (and that you appreciate the difficult job they are doing!) Job jobbed.
