Would you miss STW if we lost it?

@weeksy

What Weeksy says.

Open Source the forum somehow ;-). We are the product, if we dont like like it Jog On.

I'm feeling like Joging On soon.

Still happy to sling something toward the forums/website costs though 🙂 PayPAl donation by any chance ???? Can it be that hard.

Dont want a mag either printed or digital.... both litter. Even this post is litter 🙁

If everyone migrated to a new forum

I fully agree that (at least in very large part) its the forum users that make it work so well. But I'm not convinced generating the user base is as easy as you seem to be suggesting. If that was the case there would be loads of great forums all over the place. In my experience, this is just not the case. Other places that should be equally as good, but are far from it...
CTC
Audax.uk
yacf
All would have a potentially great user base, but struggle to generate forum content that is quite as good as STW.

No offence to those forums, but they are just not close to STW in what they offer.

IT’s not the forum that’s good, it’s the userbase and the posts that are

Still happy to sling something toward the forums/website costs though 🙂 PayPAl donation by any chance ???? Can it be that hard.

Donations can be made here, since it was asked about.

https://singletrackworld.com/donate/Also, something else that has been mentioned in these discussions about putting up the price of membership - If anyone would like to pay more then drop Zoe an email at subs@singletrackworld.com and she can add any extra you'd like to add to your annual membership payment.

I'm really trying to avoid putting up the prices as that's a blanket approach that will be fine for many but not so fine for others. As I said in my article, we have a great chance of riding out the margin squeeze if we simply gain more new members on the current prices. That's our strategy at them moment. If it doesn't work then we'll look at another.

Cheers for all the support and the discussion & ideas.

we have a great chance of riding out the margin squeeze if we simply gain more new members on the current prices

How and where though i guess is your question.

does STW have any advertising in the opposite direction ? E.g say Supporting Southern Enduro, Ard Rock, or even any of the more 'niche' events. Where would STW pick up new members apart from Google searches etc

Well, there's over a million people pop by this website every month.

Our presence at any physical event, even where the organiser gives us free space, costs typically in excess of £1k in staff time, expenses etc. We'd ned to return with 50 new members from every event just to break even. In my 21 years of doing this, that has rarely ever happened without offering some major, expensive incentive like a half price offer or free gift. Sadly, events are just not worth it for us in those terms anymore.

Shame not to give the mag a glance? Fair point, but where is it sold now? Not WHSmiths, or the supermarkets.

If you go to customer services I'm sure they'd order it in for you. If you get it from  them regularly, they'll eventually get another copy to put on the shelf.

I sell a single copy of many mags to customers who regularly order them - after a couple of months I automatically get a second copy to put on the shelf.

@zilog (and a few others) That's exactly what happened to the Boards forum. On its own it lacked technical support and started to crumble. Some of the users setup (or already ran) alternative forums, but they were never as active and generally popped after a short time. All very sad.

PS Waves @chaos I guess we may have met at the Forum Drinkies or maybe at the Screening at Leicester Square...

December 24 2008.... "you weren't there man!"
[img] [/img]

"Setting up a forum is easy!"
"Running a forum doesn't cost much!"
"Eleven staff is far too many, you only need three!"
"No-one reads the magazine!"

Etc, etc.

Well... what's stopping you, then? Go spin up a rival forum. From all the claims on here and comments across various other threads since the 1940s, it'll be a huge success.

Won't it?

Why?

Well… what’s stopping you, then? Go spin up a rival forum. From all the claims on here and comments across various other threads since the 1940s, it’ll be a huge success.

Won’t it?

Why?

That's an easy one.... Userbase...

That's the simple answer... creating, owning, maintaining the forum is the easy bit... honestly it really is... Getting the people to come is the hard bit... Partly because it's hard to 'advertise' a forum, plus the general public are more into social media these days over forums.

@mark

PayPal donate button please.

That’s an easy one…. Userbase…

That’s the simple answer… creating, owning, maintaining the forum is the easy bit… honestly it really is… Getting the people to come is the hard bit… Partly because it’s hard to ‘advertise’ a forum, plus the general public are more into social media these days over forums.

Correctamundo.

Now again - why?

I knew the answer to the question when I posed it, and it's precisely why I asked - so that hopefully a few people might stop and think. Because for everyone blarting on (and sometimes on and on) about how easy it is, the truth of the matter is that it's not, really, is it.

What's minimum wage these days, £20k? £25k? Out of the gate, Gofar's salary bill is a quarter of a million, before anyone's done anything. Is that not quite impressive for a 20+ year old enterprise which to hear some folk talk is nothing more than a broken forum that someone's nephew could do better in an afternoon?

Now again – why?

I knew the answer to the question when I posed it, and it’s precisely why I asked – so that hopefully a few people might stop and think. Because for everyone blarting on (and sometimes on and on) about how easy it is, the truth of the matter is that it’s not, really, is it.

What’s minimum wage these days, £20k? £25k? Out of the gate, Gofar’s salary bill is a quarter of a million, before anyone’s done anything. Is that not quite impressive for a 20+ year old enterprise which to hear some folk talk is nothing more than a broken forum that someone’s nephew could do better in an afternoon?

The thing you're doing is mixing up the actual logistics from the website/brand here.

The 'forum' as an entity, as a physical presence with the ability to make, maintain, and stucture postings is not a difficult thing to do. It does take a certain level of knowledge, it takes a certain amount of time to upkeep, but it's something that isn't the hardest thing on the planet to do.

The hardest part is actually making people aware of it's existence.

I don’t frequent the site as much as I did, and I recently cancelled my subscription (which I’d already downgraded to digital because I wasn’t reading the mags.

I’d also missed Marks message (mainly because I come straight to the forum and ignore the front page) but I’d be gutted if it went.

I’ve just done a new digital sub, I need some inspiration to get my arse on my bike more anyway, and I’ve never found a magazine on any subject that seems quite so well fitted to my personal view.

Vive le Singletrack ✌🏻

Bonus - the crappy ads have gone 🙌

The thing you’re doing is mixing up the actual logistics from the website/brand here.

Yup. And once more with feeling:

Why?

Running a forum in isolation is easy. I've built several over the years, all with more visible functionality than STW's. It's not hard, it's an afternoon's work.

STW has 1.4 million hits a month. At my height I probably had about six.

Why?

I'm sorry if I sound tetchy. But I am, quite frankly, bored of the complaining. Sure, the site can be frustrating and it could be more feature rich, I get that. They could probably use another developer. But where's that wage coming from? A fairly prolific Free Member poster said yesterday that they'd been here for 21 years, wanted to support the site and didn't know what to do. Lolwut?

I understand. I do. This place is kinda special to a lot of people. Me included, there's a reason I was a volunteer for a decade. What I don't understand is that a subscription is less than the price of a pint or a chainstore coffee per month and yet there are still people who've posted daily for years that are going "well, I wish there was a forum-only option..." What do you suppose that might look like that's different from a digital sub? Reading the magazine isn't mandatory if you aren't interested, there's not going to be a quiz.

(Spoiler: there might be a quiz.)

I pay my subs, but never read the mag.

I'd miss the forum for sure, you bunch of lefty sods 😉

Our presence at any physical event, even where the organiser gives us free space, costs typically in excess of £1k in staff time, expenses etc. We’d ned to return with 50 new members from every event just to break even. In my 21 years of doing this, that has rarely ever happened without offering some major, expensive incentive like a half price offer or free gift. Sadly, events are just not worth it for us in those terms anymore.

@Mark, to save costs, why not enlist the help of a handful of trusted forum members to erect and man a stall for you at an event rather than use paid staff? The staff probably have better things to do with their weekends anyhow! There might be a bit of training involved if you wanted them to sign up subscribers or sell merch but I'd be surprised if you couldn't find people on here willing to give up the odd day or weekend if it would help you ride the storm?

Edit to say, I can imagine at something like the Malvern Classic or Ardrock you'd pull in a load of new punters who'd maybe never heard of you before?

Our public liability cover wouldn't cover the use of volunteers with no salaried supervisor - and the risk assessment requirements of the organisers of the events big enough to make a difference wouldn't allow us to do that.

OK, that's a shame.  T'was just a thought.

What do you suppose that might look like that’s different from a digital sub?

It may not look much different but it would give Mark more information on what people are paying for. At present he likely doesn’t know what the split of interest is for digital subscribers.

OK, that’s a shame.  T’was just a thought.

It was a good thought and much appreciated. Yes, it's often frustrating to hit these kinds of administrative hurdles that get in the way of often simple solutions to stuff.

i like @blokeuptheroad's suggestion. I'd do that. To get around the employers thing; couldn't you do a zero hours contract that paid a nominal daily rate like a tenner?

Sadly with events they have only rarely been worthwhile in terms of membership conversions, even when staff have run things in their free time. There are much better ways we can and often do support events. We provide them with free copies of the mag with attached membership offers. We support the events by running promo stories for them. As soon as we start looking at physical attendance the numbers just don't stack up. It's not that it wouldn't possibly score us a net few extra memberships it's simply that there are better opportunities elsewhere with greater chances of higher returns. It comes down to best allocation of resources.

When we have new ideas and opportunities here in the office I often finish with a request for a breakdown of the business plan that shows a range of the realistic, worst case and best case return predictions. ie. If we do this I expect there to be a potential benefit in the range of this to this. At that point I can make a decision on whether it's a good or bad risk.

Sadly, events these days rarely get a green light.

To the original question - would I miss it? Honestly no (sorry). Not to say that there is nothing I would miss, but on balance I could get my cycling fix elsewhere.

I have cancelled my print subscription because I simply didn't find the content relevant and times are tough. I have kept my Cyclist subscription because I find it more relevant. In terms of cadence, a monthly mag is just less relevant to me than a daily fix of the very latest news on a website. In this regard, I now value a website and forum more than I do a monthly editorial, and even in that regard STW does not provide the best daily content. Much of it is press releases from brands, or a steady trickle of the articles from the mag over the course of the month (another reason why I could not justify my print subscription when the articles appear on the website anyway).

I have noticed that more and more cycling sites (Cycling Tips, Velonews, Cycling News etc) are charging for using their website and forums based on the fact that they generate a huge amount of daily relevant articles.

Those sites that provide fresh, relevant and quality content will survive (and possibly only then through a subscription model), and those that don't will either survive on lots of ads, lots of old articles and gradually whither on the vine (eg. Road.cc, Bike Radar etc who all provide very little incentive to go back regularly) or stay fresh and thrive. STW is definitely not a basket case like Bike Radar, but it would need to work harder on the daily content (which a website needs) vs monthly content (which a print mag drives) to make me subscribe again.

Sorry if that all sounds a bit harsh, but no site can survive on a core base of fanboys alone, as much as we all love the site.

What about... (I'm on a roll - or maybe not, awaits a dose of harsh reality from Mark) member vouchers for referrals?  I have a Pact coffee subscription, they give me a code which I can share with mates thinking of a subscription.  If they use the code and sign up, they get a fiver off their subscription and I get a five pound voucher.

Perhaps something similar?  The actual amounts and mechanism could be tweaked to work, perhaps not money but an extra month added onto your subscription or whatever, but basically incentivising existing subscribers to recruit for you?

Well… what’s stopping you, then? Go spin up a rival forum.

Think you need to be careful with this stuff.

I understand it's a difficult balancing act but amongst the appeals for donations etc, it would be good to also acknowledge the value that people provide when contributing to a forum.

The amazing wealth of knowledge that STW has acquired from years of people freely contributing their experiences, advice etc. Shouldn't be taken for granted.

That's what brings the 1.4 million visitors.

(another reason why I could not justify my print subscription when the articles appear on the website anyway).

This was a bit of a revelation for us as you are not the first to mention this. The truth is that only you as a full member can read those features. They are paywalled off and if you don't have a paid membership you hit the paywall. When we look at this from the perspective you the member it suddenly becomes obvious that it does appear that we are giving magazine content away for free as there's nothing on your screen to suggest that it's only paid members who can read it. We are fixing that now and it's being added to the new theme work.

What about… (I’m on a roll – or maybe not, awaits a dose of harsh reality from Mark) member vouchers for referrals?

This is a great idea. It is indeed something that's on our list of things to develop already.

That’s what brings the 1.4 million visitors.

That's an interesting stat. Are those 1.4m discreet users, or 1,800 people visiting twice a day every day? That would be quite a markedly different customer pool!

On user base

I was on the rugby forum run by the BBC. 606. It was good. The BBC were told to stop running forums and the user base moved to a new separate member run forum. Its collapsed in membership and no new folk join. Its basically just the dying embers now.

Poor moderation and no new memberskilled it.

I would very much doubt stw forum could be recreated now

The amazing wealth of knowledge that STW has acquired from years of people freely contributing their experiences, advice etc. Shouldn’t be taken for granted.

That’s an interesting stat. Are those 1.4m discreet users, or 1,800 people visiting twice a day every day? That would be quite a markedly different customer pool!

1.4 million unique users as measured by Google Analytics. There have been 1.3k users on the site in the last 30 minutes.

Can it take into account bots etc ? it seems like a MASSIVE figure.

And people with multiple devices open. I have STW open on my work and home pcs and my personal phone and use either depending on what I’m doing and my location

Bot traffic is removed by Google. Those really are our figures. As a MTB site Singletrack ranks in the top 3 of all media mtb websites in the world. We have done for many years.

Well… what’s stopping you, then? Go spin up a rival forum. From all the claims on here and comments across various other threads since the 1940s, it’ll be a huge success.

Whats the point, there is already a functional forum here.
If it goes under then a new forum may spring up in its place. Mark said the forum doesn't prop up the mag, they are seperate things. The point is the sub is for the mag/rest of website. I'm not interested in that.
If the forum was subscription only it would be dead in the water in a week.

It may not look much different but it would give Mark more information on what people are paying for. At present he likely doesn’t know what the split of interest is for digital subscribers.

Having visited STW Towers and stared into the belly of the beast, I have a high confidence that he already knows this information.

Think you need to be careful with this stuff.
...
That’s what brings the 1.4 million visitors.

Is it?

It might well be instrumental in retaining them, but I doubt it's all that influential in bringing them. I can't imagine there's terribly many folk who think "I need advice on hot air ballooning, best google for a mountain biking forum."

But again, I have no doubts that Mark already knows this far, far better than you or I do.

That's a great starting point Mark, congratulations to the team. Just need to work out how to keep them coming!

It might well be instrumental in retaining them, but I doubt it’s all that influential in bringing them. I can’t imagine there’s terribly many folk who think “I need advice on hot air ballooning, best google for a mountain biking forum.”

I would guess that's exactly where a lot of new visitors come from.
It's where I found it - searching for some random bike-related thing.
STW does brilliantly in Google because it covers a mad array of topics and (usually) provides entertaining, experienced and knowledgeable info which isn't toxified by marketing/shilling etc.

🤷‍♂️

We're both speculating. I'd bet my house that Mark isn't.

STW does brilliantly in Google because it covers a mad array of topics and (usually) provides entertaining, experienced and knowledgeable info which isn’t toxified by marketing/shilling etc.

Which isn't entirely accidental.

precisely, yet taking it for granted is exactly what non-paying, long-term members are doing.

My feeling is that there's no harm in being a "non-paying, long-term member." Rather, if they don't subscribe and boast about blocking advertising then they waive any rights they may have had to piss and moan about things.

it seems like a MASSIVE figure.

Sokath, his eyes uncovered.

Whats the point, there is already a functional forum here.

... so then we conclude, what?

If the forum was subscription only it would be dead in the water in a week.

... despite many posts asking for a forum-only subscription option?

Eh, you know, you're probably right. We live in a world where people drop a grand on a new mobile phone every other year without blinking, but balk at the prospect of paying 69p for an app to put on it.

Sokath, his eyes uncovered.

So smart boy, instead of being your usual condesencending self, lets have something useful.

So it's a massive figure... (more than i expected) however STW is clearly under financial difficulty....So how about instead of trying to belittle people with your answers, giving us something that may actually help.