@molgrips not quite, you get the magazine I think they just want forum only tarriff.
Which possible isn't a bad idea unless it causes a downward migration of people just dropping the magazine element and your worse off.
I'd love to have the answer as I'm sure everyone else would. But it's not a clear or precise thing
I would’ve had to pay a small fortune for some of the advice I’ve received for free on here over the years.
I'd imagine just the technical answers/fixes would save many many thousands of pounds for people over the last 12 months... the "how do i fix XYZ" would have otherwise meant a long trip to LBS and associated costs.
Brimg back the old classified ads.
Then you will get more clicks
More clicks = more potential advertising
More clicks = ability to charge a bit more for that advertising
As a forum its great, but the randomness of the classifieds was a bonus. Some great bikes that you knew had hardly been used, plus harder for scammers as you could tell new posters.
...another free member here, obv. I'd assumed my contributing to discussions, posting the occasional pic etc, is generating free content that attracts users some of whom can be monetised one way or another (ads, merch, membership). All so marginal as to be undetectable obv, and my dull political thread contributions have probably driven more folks away, but hey. I'd assumed that was the model for these types of forums?
I ride bikes a lot and typical of the demographic I guess. I've bought the paper mag a couple of times over the years but don't have that much interest in digital content. Should I say sorry? (Actually I've just noticed the side bar now with the post that's sparked this thread. This forum I would miss, a bit. But they do come and go. The msw one was my fave fwiw, from which current username derives. Disappointed to have arrived on here after the departure of matteeboy. Actually wouldn't he bung in a few quid?)
It is far too many. It should be possible to run with 3 people.
You should talk to Mark. Your business acumen would save the site a fortune.
This thread has shown the magazine is nearly dead.
and
The most interesting thing I’ve taken from this and the other forum thread about the current state of the magazine is that there seems to be a majority of people who simply aren’t interested in the magazine.
As reeksy suggests, there has to be confirmation bias at play here. "EVERYONE USES THE FORUM!" says, uh, everyone who uses the forum, on the forum. If there are subscribers who relish the magazine but never post on the forum, how would we know?
It does surprise me that with so many developers the forum is so unstable when a single person can build a reliable forum using easily available templates.
Off you go, then. Check back in here when you've got 1.5 million hits a month and we'll compare notes.
This argument keeps cropping up - indeed, I've said it myself before I knew better - and it's simply born of ignorance. Go visit them, go talk to them.
“EVERYONE USES THE FORUM!” says, uh, everyone who uses the forum, on the forum. If there are subscribers who relish the magazine but never post on the forum, how would we know?
As always, I'll remind people of a few years ago, there were two forum posts on the first page of the forum. One was "what do you carry on a ride" and one was "do you carry a first aid kit".
In the first aid kit thread, about 90% of people carried a first aid kit at all times.
In the general carry thread, only about 10% of people mentioned first aid, and most, like me, would only consider it on a long remote, adventure type day ride.
I lurk here a lot, so fair play, time to contribute.
Im sorry if this sounds harsh but the reality is that if there arent enough people who are happy to pay the price the magazine needs to be a viable business and pay staff then it has to either stop or change its content / business model to one that is viable.
As I have said earlier in the thread personally the current direction of the mag is driving me away rather than towards. If Im in the minority, then so be it, and the magazine will be fine. If Im not then the magazine needs to change or decide if it can charge a higher price to those who enjoy its current direction.
I have enjoyed the magazine over the years so would like it to stay relevant to me and I will happily pay for it.
A natural inevitable consequence of posting the sort of appeal I did yesterday is the responses about how all we need to do to make everything be rosy is do x.
"You know what you wanna do right? You wanna put a banging donk on it." As heard often on the weekend radio 🙂
I'll not respond to everything but one person was quite correct when they said that all we need to run a forum is 3 people and why with 3 developers we can't have a super stable forum - It's easy right?
But we aren't just a forum. We are media brand that publishes editorial content and sells advertising around it. The forum is part of that business and all the parts of the business come together to create a brand that is trusted and attracts advertising revenue and paid memberships from readers.
I could similarly siphon off the magazine (Print & digital) into a separate company with all the magazine features and daily news items published. I'd need at least 4 members of staff to pull that off alongside a long list of freelance contributors to keep the content flowing. The merchandise side of the business could be run by maybe two people. If we did split the company up like that each would probably need it's own dev too.
But we run them all in one company and as a result they all add up to more than the sum of their parts. In fact I reckon splitting things up like that would likely lead to the end of all three. The fact we manage the whole thing in a single business is what makes it all work. And that's why we averaged 1.4 million people a month last year.
The magazine has more members now than it did 3 years ago. The interest in the magazine isn't the problem - people have been telling us that it's in decline for 21 years and yet....
The issue is it costs more to produce and run everything at a time when the spending public are being squeezed dry by the state of the economy and the fuel crisis.
Plus. I get to employ 10 people. I really like doing that. For me it's one of the main driving forces behind why I still do this.
I contribute by providing revenue through all the ads I have on my screen surely?
I think that only works if you click on the link and have a scout about whichever site it take you to. Just having it there without interaction isn't going to do anything.
STW has been part of my life for 21 years.
The forum is unequivocally the best of its type despite being an anodyne, washed out version of its full blooded glory years.
I would miss it, but its an accompaniment to the real thing and I'd adjust fairly quickly to being without.
Mag wise, I don't really get ANY mags. I read quickly and voraciously, and for me, magazines of all kinds don't offer much vs the cost. I used to get the ones with the maps in pre-smartphone era, but that was for the routes.
My twopence worth…
The website is fairly clunky. I’ve been over in the shop earlier today trying to help by purchasing a few bits and pieces. The navigating wasn’t particularly quick or easy and on a similar note the stock wasn’t particularly high. Looking forward to the updates to see what improvements this brings.
Generally though I’m more of a forum user than the magazine, I tend to only download the magazine when I’m going on holiday. I have just subscribed for the paper copy though.
Is the 1.4 million people per month individual users? That sounds like a heck of a lot of traffic for a fairly niche website. I know it’s global, but using my simple maths and reference only, but isn’t that one in every 60 people in the UK had visited this site per month? Impressive if that’s the case.
Hoping this doesn’t sound negative, as I’d really miss singletrack if it did go.
The thing is, STW is full of genuinely great advice from knowledgeable people about a plethora of topics completely unrelated to bikes.
I've met a number of people who know of STW just because they were searching on google for answers and it was high on the search list and gave them meaningful answers.
When I was a paid up member I never once read the mag
And Whilst I use the forum plenty, I doubt I’d really miss it either.
So to the op’s original question, no probably not. I’d find something else to do when I’m bored working from home.
"Is the 1.4 million people per month individual users?"
Yes
Plus. I get to employ 10 people. I really like doing that
If ever we needed a Like button 🙂
I used to employ nine people, when I shut the business the jobs they got after must have been better than working for me. 😉
Good luck with it whichever path you choose.
I for one definitely would miss STW. I enjoy the articles, learning new things and finding out about different things too. I do have a read through the magazine as well when it turns up although tend to check the website more if I'm honest.
As far as the forum goes, this community has been such a big part of my life and has had a major impact on me personally. Honestly don't know where I'd be now if I didn't have this as an outlet. Even if I don't post for a while I'm usually lurking. Have spoken to a lot of people I wouldn't ordinarily have had the opportunity to, met some and have become friends with a few too. It's such a diverse community with many different backgrounds, abilities and strengths.
I'm pleased and proud to be a small part of what STW have accomplished and hope it continues for a long time.
Yes I would miss the forum and the mag, the forum can have you crying with laughter and sadness, with the wealth of knowledge of all the contributions it’s a valuable resource.
Re the magazine it has changed but its still a enjoyable read.
I stopped getting the magazine years ago. I used to love reading it back in the single speed days but once the prices of gear started to go up there just seemed less stuff I wanted to read. I find the forum a bit cliquey at times, some threads seem to have a handful of people focussing on bickering with each other without much to be gained by it. I asked a question last year, there was lots of back and forth and arguing but it wasn't very helpful and eventually the thread was closed.
It feels to me like there's much less activity especially in the bike forum so I don't check in as much.
Was looking at buying some more shirts and the problem isn't that you don't ship to Belgium, it's that almost everything is out of stock :(.
“Is the 1.4 million people per month individual users?”
Yes
I know it's not true, but I love this inference that even the owner can't use the quote function.
Anyhow, stick me in the crowd for an optional pay-for-a-mag-subscription-without-the-mag camp - as medium term solution, and like a centipede, I reckon that's got legs.
Would you miss STW if we lost it?
Yes. Forum and Magazine.
Magazine: The ratio of articles I enjoy to articles I don't enjoy has moved in the wrong direction slightly for me, but I suspect that's a phase and will cycle back the other way in the future. The 'excess baggage' article in the current mag for example more than makes up for the knit your own yoghurt stuff. I do enjoy reading a physical magazine rather than digital. The photography is fantastic in print. +1 for a bigger font for the text though 🙂
Forum: The bickering threads are tedious, but are outweighed by the helpfulness on any variety of topics. I was here before it even existed of course.
Magazine: probably not tbh, the photos are great but I've not gelled with the articles (other than new kit reviews) for a number of years and feel more disconnected with the mag in recent times (no traveling etc). Backpacking and long distance rides just aren't my thing, i have a paper subscription off and on for a number of years, but this year the decision was to save some cash and go digital as 99% of the content and interaction value I get is here. I'm sure that there is a market for the STW mag, but with my personal riding turning into a once a week local loop or bike park visit isnt it.
Theres been some amazing articles over the past year or two, the Jamie Hibbard one was great and even inspired me to write a thread about how much I appreciated it.
Forum/online: if this was to go it would be a bigger part of my life to loose than I'm willing to admit tbh.
I have the sort of job where I can regularly check the threads on the forum and I find the interaction with fellow MTB enthusiasts rewarding. Prob because Im currently only riding once a week and mates who ride are moving further afield. I've no idea how often I check the forum a day but it would cirtainly be my most regularly visited site. Having said that, I've used a few MTB forums over the years, the mbuk one was great in the early 00's then changed format and a few (50) of us created and contributed to a new form ukmb which kept the original banter feel. That eventually dissolved and here I am.
Never read the magazine. No interest in it at all.
The forum yes I would miss it.
I think there has always been a disconnect between what mark wants and what most visitors want from this site. The forum supporting a loss making magazine seems like an odd business plan.
I think both magazines in hard copy and forums may well be dying anyway i did start paying in response to a appeal at the begining of covid but still have not looked at the magazine.
The forum supporting a loss making magazine seems like an odd business plan.
I'm not sure that is entirely the case.
I’m not sure that is entirely the case.
I'd politely disagree...
Whilst the 'site' may cost more than the overall income from the forum, the 'forum' aspect of the forum isn't particularly expensive at all to host, own, run. There's tonnes and tonnes of providers, options, hosts, data, etc.... None of which would cost anything like the amount of money STW bring in from 'digital' subscriptions.
Once you reach a certain 'size' in forums, you then move into 'unlimited' in terms of data, cpu etc.... Where the cost doesn't go up over and above one of the lower subscriptions. This place will increase that limit potentially due to magazine downloads, reads, articles.... but actual 'forum' this place isn't particularly higher in terms of users/posts/etc than somewhere like mtbr.com
I agree though there's a much bigger picture here... but forums are not particularly expensive to own/run.
I think both magazines in hard copy and forums may well be dying anyway i did start paying in response to a appeal at the begining of covid but still have not looked at the magazine.
Unfortunately magazine and print in general have been falling in sales dramatically for a long time. Something stw is clearly aware of and the magazine has had several redesigns over the years.
I run a shop that sells magazines - I looked through my epos only sold one copy of STW other than to my self, so I delisted it and subscribed instead. I've various other cycling mags which again rarely sell. Best sellers for me in print (other than news papers, which are also falling in sales) is children's magazine's. But the trend there is always a compromise between the parent buying something for the child to read Vs the child wanting the free gift on the front.
When I worked for a supermarket they desperately wanted to remove a vast number of magazines from the shelves, but keep newspapers, something the print distributors wouldn't let them do.
bentandbroken
I came here after the Boards Windsurfing forum and magazine started creaking and eventually ran out of puff in 2013.
Snap! Now that was an excellent magazine, the kit reviews and discussions of industry trends were of a level I've never seen elsewhere. The forum was remarkably similar in terms of people / informed chat / views / etc and lead to a number of good real world friendships + a great monthly pub night in London iirc.
Stop trying to use the forum to prop up a failing magazine,..a free user generated forum will rise when STW mag eventually dies, free from the profiteering and monetization.
"1.5 million hits a month" all coming for the free user generated content on the forum,..not the magazine.
The forum supporting a loss making magazine seems like an odd business plan.
This is absolutely not the case as I thought I'd made clear but obviously didn't. The forum may be nominally cheap to run but it is part of a system that includes editorial content and a rather important database. If the printed magazine were hived off into a separate business it would still be viable. The magazine does not make a loss. It is profitable. The problem is very much that the margin of profit is being squeezed and will be squeezed harder in the coming 12 months. That's very much not the same as loss making.
Singletrack is a viable business and has been for 21 years. The reason I acted and published the appeal is to attempt to avoid a downscaling of the business due to margin squeeze.
Now some may argue that it's just business and if I need to down size the staffing then that's just the way it goes. So perhaps I'm being selfish in not wanting to do that. I like the team we have. I like the fact that Singletrack provides them with a steady income and I like that we have a happy team who love what they do. I really want to not have to come in to work in 6 months and announce cutbacks. So in order to avoid that I've asked you guys for support.
It's fine to think I should run things differently, but this is my plan.
Now some may argue that it’s just business and if I need to down size the staffing then that’s just the way it goes. So perhaps I’m being selfish in not wanting to do that. I like the team we have. I like the fact that Singletrack provides them with a steady income and I like that we have a happy team who love what they do. I really want to not have to come in to work in 6 months and announce cutbacks. So in order to avoid that I’ve asked you guys for support.
I don't think there's many on here who think that fella... I think you're doing an excellent thing here with this place and whilst i may not see any point in the magazine, that doesn't mean I/We don't respect what this place is, both to you and to your employees.
The other disconnect is the folk who think this is some sort of democracy. Its not its a private playground. We may not always agree with decisions but thats not how it works. What Mark says is what happens
As you are reading this thread Mark i am greatful you let my rejoining stand. Thank you for that
I often think about subscribing, but everything I read on the STW site outside the forum does not appeal to me at all. As Weeksy described so well, it cost very little to run a forum, and subbing to me is about supporting the mag, not the forum.
100% agree that the forum has the ability to be excellent, it is possibly the best hive mind I have come across for the subjects I am interested in, but I don't think it needs the mag to survive. Lots of active users on here do not sub, which means they are not interested in the other content either.
To answer the OP, would I miss the forum? Yes.
Do we need to subscribe for the forum to survive? I doubt it.
A better question might be, would you miss the mag and STW website?
I'm another Boards ex forumite too.
The magazine was also very good and of a similar format with group tests , holiday locations, new kit reveiws etc to the current STW . Again , abit aloof and above most peoples pay grade but reading about Maui , Mauritius, Australia etc we could all dream, same as the technique guide. This is how you do a double forward loop. Yeah , right . I like my head connected to neck and my board in one peice thanks .
A better question might be, would you miss the mag and STW website?
I'd happily pay for just the forum and personally wouldn't miss the rest... Which is clearly very harsh on the employees and STW as a whole, but if that's the specific question, that's my answer.
Bit lost now. The magazine is profitable, and the forum cheap to run?
I used to get the mag, since the Ally Pally show all those decades ago. Stopped about a year ago - which was on a subscription. Realised that I was putting it into the bin, unread.
I still ride, and have just bought a Status 140, so it is not a lack of interest in cycling. My rides are no longer aspirational though, and I lost the will to put a bike into a car and drive off years ago - J8 M25 does that to a person. Even I realise that articles about blokes about to retire, who bimble about in the woods, is not interesting in print.
Would I miss the forum? Probably for a week. It is a better source of info than a lot of places, but ultimately it is just a diversion.
There isn't a sub option just to support the forum (I have asked a couple of times over the years), so I decided rather than not support I'd take the Digital sub as it costs about £20 a year and it was me doing something to support this. I'm pretty sure if STW was to close then the forum would be killed as well, so I reckon this is ok as a support model for me.
Can I just mention that the 'excess baggage' article in the latest mag is awesome. Proper inspirational and uplifting stuff. There's no way one of the more mainstream mtb mags would ever dream of publishing an article of that quality, honesty and subject matter. It made me reappraise some crap in my personal life which pales into insignificance in comparison. There is some quality writing in the magazine, it's a shame those who no longer read it, don't give it another chance from time to time.
Shame not to give the mag a glance? Fair point, but where is it sold now? Not WHSmiths, or the supermarkets. Subscriptions only? Not sure my head is configured to read mags online.
A bit over a year ago I was in a bad way.
One of the first things that happened was Mark and co made sure I had a free digital sub. With that kind of support from them how could I not miss STW if it went?
Sadly I think this is the start of the end for much publishing.
My own three neswspapers will suffer this autumn like never before.
There are only 4 of us and we're all grownups who've been through this before but it is never pleasant.
I don't know what industries you work in but on the magazines I worked on and edited you were part of a team and the product wasnt just product it was something you deeply cared about every single issue.
When I left it was like leaving a family and all my friends. In many ways it was harder to go through than my divorce.
So when we talk about the end of Singletrack remember its not a website and a mag that is going, it is the dreams and sweat of 11 human beings that is being cast away by forces beyond their control.
I'm as guilty of forgetting this as anyone, but every now and then I think of the folk on the team and feel a lot of envy as I remember what it was like being at the heart of something I believed in and enjoyed turning up at the desk every day for 20 years to do.
.a free user generated forum will rise when STW mag eventually dies
I'm not convinced that would be the case. I've yet to come across a forum that is anywhere near as good as STW. Obviously "good" could be considered a lame term, but I consider it an apt one.
I've upgraded. Keep up the good work STW. Keep up the good work Fourmites, both free and full ones.
Shame not to give the mag a glance? Fair point, but where is it sold now? Not WHSmiths, or the supermarkets. Subscriptions only? Not sure my head is configured to read mags online.
I have seen it for sale in the odd mtb focussed bike shop. You can also buy individual paper copies from STW without subscribing. I did that before I subscribed to suss it out. I really like the tactile experience of a quality magazine. The smell, the feel, the occasion of brewing a good coffee and sneaking off somewhere quiet to enjoy it in peace. I sometimes read older copies digitally from before I subscribed, but it's not the same. I also pass on my copies to riding mates who don't use the forum who are always appreciative.
I’m not convinced that would be the case. I’ve yet to come across a forum that is anywhere near as good as STW.
IT's not the forum that's good, it's the userbase and the posts that are.... If everyone migrated to a new forum then surely it'd be exactly the same ?
