The wolves in the Netherlands are not a pack. they are wanderers from Germany. They are not a viable breeding population indeed from reports in the dutch press its not clear there are any settled wolves in the Netherlands nor any evidence of any breeding
The UK being an island you would need a big enough population to ensure genetic diversity. In mainland europe this is provided by the fact the wolves roam across borders so even small populations retain genetic diversity
So yes - there is probably a small number of wolves roaming in the Netherlands but this is not a pack nor a breeding population but some lone wanderers
I cannot remember how many individuals you need to have a stable breeding population with sufficient genetic diversity but from vague memory its hundreds
https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2019/02/female-wolf-settles-in-the-netherlands-and-may-have-a-mate/
Wolves NO, Dragons or Bandersnatch might. Triffids, Slaver Sunflowers and Nort Bio-Wire would definitely add a frisson of risk too a mundane Sarf Downs ride.
I cannot remember how many individuals you need to have a stable breeding population with sufficient genetic diversity but from vague memory its hundreds
I seem to remember 50 - 500 animals dependent on species, can’t remember where I saw that though, that would suggest any uk introductions would need management.
Edit: Wikipedia states 500 for terrestrial vertebrates without inbreeding/ genetic problems.
Now you are talking Ming.
The triffids tv series gave me a fear of large plants that lasts today!
bsims
I think rewilding is a good idea, on the wolves front I can’t see it happening south of the Highlands
It's a crap idea because the Highlands were never "wild". Humans moved in as the ice retreated and there were large numbers of them living in the mountains. They controlled the populations of predators.
If there are going to be species reintroduced, then it should be humans and their livestock.
The "wild" lands were forcibly depopulated and turned into the empty bogs and deer zoo you now see. The Highlands used to have a larger population than the Lowlands before the Clearances.
As for wolves being afraid of man, that's understandable, they're smart predators and will only take on something they can take down relatively safely.
They'll never touch us because they quickly learn what guns can do.
Oh...
Yup, definitely a crap idea. And it's actually really the thin edge of the wedge to get round the right to roam laws in Scotland and to restrict access.
Oh, we need to put up a big fence all the way round the estate to keep the wolves in. Only £50 to pass through and see the wolves etc etc...
@ epicyclo
I'm not just talking about the highlands. If Wolves are not viable in the highlands like I think they are not in the rest of the UK then fair enough, but that does not mean that rewilding should take place elsewhere. Putting up fences is not really rewilding and has been done as part of trial introductions, with a view as far as I am aware, to remove if the trial is successful.
Are you saying that other animals besides humans did not move into the Highlands after the Ice age? Do you have a source for your point?
bsims
...Are you saying that other animals besides humans did not move into the Highlands after the Ice age? Do you have a source for your point?
Of course I'm not saying that, but the predators would have been kept under control and exterminated where possible, in the same way any other pastoral community does not tolerate their livestock or children being food for predators.
The netherlands is having a bit of a crisis / national debate about rewilding and land management at the moment and my bet is it ends with the wolves being removed
A very large portion of the Nederlands was tidal until humans put in place barriers and pumps and turned it to productive farmland.
Sea Eagles around the IoW will be a different proposition to the highlands; the IoW doesn’t have a large number of hill farmers with sheep, it’s a far more populous island, and the sea eagles will likely keep to matching fish, or scavenging carrion.
Which is what the majority of highland losses to eagles are; dead and sickly lambs.
In the area where I live in France, wolves have been known to attack and eat sheeps. 75 last year. Never seen one.
Farmers use large dogs called Patou to defend their animals.
Epicyclo-
Accepted, but do you not think that having native (since last glacial period) predators would help the ecosystem? Especially give that the highlands should be Taiga which make it unique in the UK.
I do think that there would have to be management of large predators but there would be a reduced need to manage the large herbivores.
bsims
Accepted, but do you not think that having native (since last glacial period) predators would help the ecosystem?
No, because without reintroducing the totality of the human and pastoral element of the previous eco system they are trying to "restore" it's just another zoo project.
They're just trying to foist aesthetic environmentalism with attractive fluffy beasties on us (and restrict our access).
Probably the best thing would be to remove all financial incentives and subsidies that the huge landowners have gathered to themselves over the years, put a stop to killing for fun, and tax their businesses just like every other business.
I don't think the highlands would ever have been Taiga. Temperate rain forest? There is a few bits of arctic and sub arctic stuff but thats only on the high mountain plateaus
epicyclo-
Fair enough, I think that climatic climax vegetation is preferable to meso climax. I don’t agree with fencing off. Human management of the highlands as per you description is artificial, through technology and therefore is not a natural ecosystem.
I agree with your point about financial incentives for slaughter of wildlife.
tjagain-
Temperate rainforest on the west coast at low level, higher up dominated by Scots pine surely that is boreal forest?
I bow to your knowledge!
I wouldn’t there’s not much of it and what is there is remembered from others people’s😀
Edit: scrub that I’ll take it as a compliment😃
I think that climatic climax vegetation is preferable to meso climax
Disturbance tends to increase species diversity though.
As does leaving it alone for millions of years!
I suppose something like the South Downs makes your point with lots of endangered species which would be extinct if it wasn’t for the human activity.
SaxonRider curious as to how you went about your sporting activities with such a collection of wild animals around, what precautions did you take, were solo mountain bike rides out of the question? Thanks.
Depends where it was. In the Rockies, I was honestly terrified of grizzlies. I know it was probably slightly irrational, but I had a hard time enjoying hiking due to fear of grizzlies. Then once, on a solo ride outside of Kamloops, I became convinced that, in the silence of the forest, I was being stalked by a mountain lion. After a long, long climb, it finally became too much, and I turned around and tore down the mountain side. I have never descended anything so quickly in life! Honestly, terror is a good motivator. Of course, I am sure I imagined everything.
In the East, where grizzlies don’t live, it was all black bears. And generally bears aren’t predatory. They can be, but it’s rare. I was always conscious of them, but the fear of them wasn’t debilitating for me. Meanwhile, coyotes would just watch you, and wolves would stay out of your way.
So really, you’re conscious of all the creatures out there, but (terror of grizzlies and imagined mountain lions aside) you learn to deal with them. We even had lessons in school to that end.
Imagined or not, I remember going skiing early season in Banff just weeks after a xc skier was stalked and killed by a mountain lion. We didn't ski alone!
Rewilding will be happening probably post Brexit when the subsidy regime that keeps subsistence sheep farming going will get the bullet (except for national parks) and something that actually acts as a carbon sink and a ecological benefit can be done
Why pay farmers to farm the most ecologically damaging form of livestock in areas where without the subsidy they would go busy as the over supply of the meat and fleece means they get buttons for it from the market?
It's bonkers!
There is a massive opportunity to change the landscape and create something that future generations will see as a turning point to actually create a green and pleasant land
Brexit point scoring on a thread about wolves. I didn't see that coming.
Still, "Wolves for Brexit" sounds like a good slogan. Where do I get the tee-shirt?
A call for arms because of wolves and Brexit will introduce them. 😂
As does leaving it alone for millions of years!
But given thats not really an option unless we have a time machine
"rewilding" - what point in time do you want to go back to? Thats the false premise behind rewilding
Nowhere in the UK has been truely wild for many thousands of years. Others will know more than me but the type of ecosystme in the UK post ice ages has changed many times. Personally taking it back about 500 years would be a decent aim - increase forest cover significantly.
Epicyclo is right tho. the highlands needs people and employment or else it just becomes a huge park.
tjagain
The netherlands is having a bit of a crisis / national debate about rewilding and land management at the moment and my bet is it ends with the wolves being removed
I had a wee smile at the thought of rewilding the Netherlands.
Reintroducing the missing species there would mean opening the floodgates surely...
800 or so years ago there was no IJsselmeer in the netherlands. It was all land out to where the Afsluitdijk is. A great flood flooded the central flat plain of the Netherlands. further floods in the 19th and 20th centuries flooded more of the central Netherlands leading to the building of the Afsluitdijk to protect the remaining land.
so rewilding the netherlands would ean lifting much of the country up by 10 m. 😉
The Cairngorms Connect project is probably the most far-sighted rewilding project we have in the UK and that's looking out about 200 years. Still only covers 600 sq km though and some of the areas it butts up against are amongst the worse for poor land management practices (including Balmoral).
http://cairngormsconnect.org.uk/
Meanwhile, there was a big song and dance about protecting the few beavers we have but the Scottish Government has issued 170 licences to farmers to allow them to "control" the numbers on their land. 🤔
Would that be the spey valley beavers rather than the knapdale ones? The spey valley population is getting quite large and its not really a good place for them - they would never have been introduced there. The population comes from illegal / accidental releases does it not?
Its always going to be an issue - sharing land between farming and wild animals.
One thing I would say tho is to often we concentrate on the bad news, raptor persecution etc but in the time I have been wandering around the highlands much has changed for the better. 40+ years ago seeing a buzzard was an event. Now they are everywhere. I didn't see a golden eagle until 10 years ago. since then I have seen a good few. Some estates have adopted much more conservation orientated land management practices and native tree cover is increasing and obviously so. Its not all bad news.
Sure a lot more could be done but the SNPs policy of enabling community land purchase is reaping its rewards in improving stewardship of the land. Even some grouse estates are improving. ( while many are still monoculture "green deserts"
the key thing we need now IMO is far better management and control of shooting estates via licensing. the Werrity report is going to be interesting as will be the governments response to it.
Tayside.
As long as Fergus Ewing is involved we'll see little positive change or control over the green deserts.
Thats the ones I meant not speyside - doh!
Thats why the Werrity report is going to be very interesting. given the evidence its going to be very hard for Ewing to refuse action unless Werrity bottles it
The SNP are going to have to face up to this issue. Its difficult for them but given the last GE results the snp seem to have lost the huntin shootin fishin lot anyway.
Wolves? Meh..
Badgers.
I hope that wont re introduce them. Many reasons but mainly because they scare the shit out of me. Im fat and slow and ideal prey for one.
in reality i cant ever seeing it happen. Have you seen how thick people are these days. introducing an apex predator wouldnt end well.
It’s a crap idea because the Highlands were never “wild”. Humans moved in as the ice retreated and there were large numbers of them living in the mountains. They controlled the populations of predators.
Humans are part of the natural fauna of the planet. Even Neolithic hunter gatherers changed their environment (see North America) but so do loads of other animals large and small. But there comes a point in history where humans become so populous that they destroy an unreasonable amount of other environments beyond what is really necessary. Humans need food so we destroy enormous areas of natural habitat to feed ourselves.
However, in the case of the Highlands, we aren't really using it to feed ourselves. If the clearances hadn't happened then I doubt we'd be having this discussion - we'd no more be suggesting re-wilding in Scotland than we would in Yorkshire. As you will know the clearances happened because the landowners wanted to make a bit of cash. That imperative has now moved on, so we're left with a very large area of land with few people, no predators and runaway deer population which is also causing ecological havoc. Ecosystems can be improved by restoring some balance points. Doing so improves biodiversity both with the animals they introduce and the effects those animals have.
Question for you, epicyclo - do you agree with the re-introduction of wolves to Yellowstone in the USA? Of course it's a large area of low population, but it still falls foul of the arguments you presented. Yellowstone is always going to be a 'managed' wilderness, but it's still the better for having wolves in it, don't you think?
The triffids tv series gave me a fear of large plants that lasts today!
I have what I consider to be an entirely legitimate fear of trees and they have made occasional impacts on my riding, and certainly my riding has certainly made some impact on them, most entertainingly when a helmet light got hooked on a branch.
Also, they have time on their side. There's one tiny sapling birch growing on a local trail I used to dodge so as not to damage the poor thing. But over the past seven or eight years it's grown strong and substantial, so there's no doubt who would come off worse now, in the event of impact.
Wolves, on the other hand, I recon would dodge.
Nowhere in the UK has been truely wild for many thousands of years.
Quite clearly you’ve never been to Birkenhead.
This is the farm road behind our place in Austria, zoom in on the sign.
Molgrips - the highlands needs people and jobs not to be turned into a theme park
molgrips
Question for you, epicyclo – do you agree with the re-introduction of wolves to Yellowstone in the USA?
That's a question I'd leave to the people of that area.
But in general, I think the idea of re-introducing species is an urban dream of recreating a mythical fantasy past.
If you're going to do that, you need to rebalance the entire eco system, including parasites, deadly diseases etc etc or you're just creating another fancy zoo.
Oh, and reintroduce humans with the weaponry and skills of that time who are not burdened with the necessity of explaining why they are so keen to reduce the predator population.
But surely the important issue is deciding which period in an ever evolving landscape is the eco-correct one?
I really do struggle with the concept of creatures being introduced in order to provide theme-park entertainment for the public.
You should read "Wilding" by Isabella Tree. At Knepp Park in Sussex they've found that introducing large animals (not wolves but they get discussed) into the countryside has knock-on effects which are beneficial to other wildlife. It was a typically barren farm twenty odd years ago and is now a haven for purple emperors (no, not Trump) and nightingales.
I'd be interested to know how people that go mtbing in Spain or Eastern Europe get on in their encounters with the wolves there. My guess is that they never see them. I suspect that any wolves introduced to Britain would make themselves scarce, though they might go all "red kite" and end up fighting the foxes in my garden every night.
As for Wolves and Lynx etc, well the conservationist at the Highland Wildlife Park was very against it on the basis that they would be sharing habitat with the Scottish Wildcat very much hastening their demise.
I doubt very much that there would be much overlap in prey species between wildcats, lynx and wolves. And most ecosystems manage to support more predators than that. (So did Britain at one time, so there's a little disconnect in the thinking there..)
* Wolves are **** huge! Ever seen one up close? They are the size of a big Irish wolfhound. It wouldn’t be like getting nipped by next doors Springer Spaniel called Dennis.
Yep. A wild wolf isn't even quite the same as the things you get in zoos. Much more muscular and intimidating - a bit like a proper hunt dog vs. a foxhound that has spent it's life kept as a pet.
If you’re going to do that, you need to rebalance the entire eco system, including parasites, deadly diseases etc etc or you’re just creating another fancy zoo.
That tends to happen on its own from what I've read.
But surely the important issue is deciding which period in an ever evolving landscape is the eco-correct one?
I would say it's more about improving bio-diversity than historical recreation.
Yes but what is the point you are aiming for? what is the "correct" biodiveristy? Post ice age scotlands climate and ecosystem has changed a lot.
Also if increasing biodiversity is the aim then you don't start with apex predators
what is the “correct” biodiveristy?
Simply improving what we have, which is poor.
Also if increasing biodiversity is the aim then you don’t start with apex predators
Not sure that's the case. Scotland is overrun with deer, they trash the flora and eat tree saplings. Adding wolves would reduce deer numbers and let more flora grow which would increase numbers of all sorts of other animals either directly or by creating say insect habitats which would then feed more animals.
I presume you've read the Yellowstone story? The wolves were introduced, the deer then stopped hanging around by the water in the open; this meant that trees grew up by the water, which meant the beavers moved in, they created dams and marshy wetlands which attracted loads more species. It had a huge knock-on effect.
