Iran's much worse than Israel in intent IMO, just that Israel has far greater capacity to act on its malignance. I find it useful to not have to pick sides, when it's clear that both participants are irredeemable c***s.
if you had terrorists coming on to your land and blowing up buses, shopping centres etc killing innocent women and children just like the ****ing ira used to do over here i bet you'd be pissed off enough to do something about it, i hope i never get that knock at the door telling me my family has been murdered by a chicken shit terrorist **** who doesn't have the balls to attack a legitimate military target, and why is it that so many tossers always blame the isrealis for going to far when then the arabs nearly always start the trouble, if you can't do the time don't do the crime.
If you nuke Israel and kill my family, I may well kill you.
Thanks.
if you had terrorists coming on to your land and blowing up buses, shopping centres etc killing innocent women and children just like the **** ira used to do ............blah, blah, blah, blah,
Yeah of course, because an unarmed humanitarian aid flotilla is exactly that.
Tosser.
what goes around comes around! you dick
MMB clearly you have no knowledge or understanding of the situation you are referring to. Check out the number of 'soft target' Palestinians and Arabs killed by the Israelis against the numer of Israelis killed in terrorist attacks. Check the population density and per capita income of places like Gaza. Is a humanitarian convoy a legitimate military target? Much better to find out and think before engaging in a poorly expressed amd misspelt diatribe.
mmb, how about reading it as israel invaded Palestine displacing the population treating them as second class citizens. Wouldn't you be pissed off and want to get your land back.
It works both ways.
As for killing cilvilians might i bring your attention to Hiroshima, Coventry, Dresden, I would suggest the killing of civilians for political gain is a well accepted method of warfare. Over the years the actions of Mosad haven't been exactly in accordance with the geneva convention. I am not saying Hamas are innocent, they have as much blood on their hands as Israel.
The big difference is money, israel has it the palestians don't, on that basis how do you expect the palestians to fight, in a pitched battle? no general would be that stupid. Look at what you have and fight to your strengths.
I hear they may have had some metal bars on the boats. Bloody trouble makers. 🙄
mmb - Memberwhat goes around comes around! you dick
So you are suggesting that the Palestinians in Gaza kill a few Israelis in retaliation then ?
Well don't start complaining if it happens then.
It should also be remembered that these were ships in international waters, if they had been in israeli waters boarding a ship would be a reasonable action if the israelis had concerns. I would suggest that the israeli navy could have forced those ships into international waters, or into harbour with moderate force, and no need to board if they had wanted to.
To do it under the cover of darkness in international waters strikes me as a deliberate act of aggression, I would suggest Israel went into this in the knowledge that what has happened would have happened. I would also suggest that israel doesn't give a damn and believes that their bankers will support them.
I'm a supporter of the Jews.
But this act is not worthy of them.
just because the isrealis are better at it doesn't make them wrong does it, just think about for a minute, i don't hit the guy next door because he's bigger and i'll get flattened as a result common sense really and if the arabs excercised a little we wouldn't be having this discussion it only takes a few brain cells to stay away from the guy with a bigger stick and if they were left alone in the first place they would have no need to take such extreme action' yes it is a very bad thing that they have done as they have on many occasions but no worse than they have ever had done to them! murder of innocents is wrong no matter who does it.
if they had been in israeli waters boarding a ship would be a reasonable action
But the ships were going to the Gaza Strip, an area of land which the Israelis, in contradiction to the rest of the world, claim they are not occupying. Why would it be reasonable to board a ship in Gaza Strip waters ?
mmb, to continue your analogy, what if the guy next door decides he wants your garden? 6 days war, or should you say ok just have it?
I'm a supporter of the Jews
It has nothing to do with whether or not you are "a supporter of the Jews".
I oppose the Zionist State as much as I opposed the Apartheid State. But I have never been 'anti-white'.
ernie, i did say if it was in Israeli waters, If the ship did not enter Israeli waters it is an act of piracy. Not disimilar to what the somalis are doing. And a million miles away from the cases in Iranian waters where the Iranians had the decency to claim the ships were in their waters.
it wouldn't be reasonably you're absolutely right, but if i thought someone was planning to kill me or my family i would take whatever action i need to take reasonable or not i'd murder the bastard first to keep my loved ones safe and anyone who disagreed with my actions would simply be told to f****off as long as my loved are safe i wouldn't give a shit what anyone else thought who would under those circumstances. please forgive my slow respones i'm a one finger typist.
mmb, and we arrive at the crux of the problem, Israel is not fully accepted by the countries around them, land, power and water are all problems.
You have a group of kids fighting, everyone saying "he started it", but rather than banging there heads together and telling them to sort it out you have other countries, the USA, repeatedly condoning the actions of Israel making them feel invincible. So israel prevents the reconstruction of Gaza, refuses to accept the various UN resolutions against them. Develops Nuclear weapons, etc.
mmb you should be the israeli's gov's spokesperson. Your moral justification for use of extreme violence is without flaw.
EDIT: 😕 (just in case)
i wish i had a garden! i live in a flat! however you are right people should stand up for themselves and what they believe in but how they're going about it is wrong, the reason isreal took control of the strip in the first place was to try and stem the flow of terrorists just defending they're people is all, granted it didn't work but we managed to work out our differences with the ira when the cease fire had shown good intent from both sides but the isrealis can't be expected to stand back and do nothing until both sides make the effort but the arabs keep kicking off and as long as they do so the isrealis have a right to take action. both sides need to make concessions here.
mmb, you need to look at the whole story, the gaza strip is only part, look at the 6 days war, the Suez crisis, Yom Kippur, Golan heights, the division of the city of Jerusalem, the water of the River Jordan, etc. Each has a part to play, some are arab aggression, some israeli, it is the sum that is where we are now.
But the problem as it is now is that Israel feels invincible it sees no reason to talk, to acknowledge the refugees leaving in the west bank and Gaza have rights to Israeli land.
it wouldn't be reasonably you're absolutely right, but if i thought someone was planning to kill me or my family............
Still banging on trying to suggest that the unarmed humanitarian aid flotilla was on the way to kill people ? ....ffs
[b][i]"i wouldn't give a shit what anyone else thought "[/i][/b]
Yup, that pretty much sums up how the mind of a Zionist works.
Of course Israel however, is totally reliant on outside support.
Alternative headline:
[b]"Nation carries out search of vessels suspected of carrying contraband arms; 10 killed when crew resist with force"[/b]
The international waters issue is irrelevant - sovereign navies have long had the right to board and inspect vessels for illegal/contraband items, or are you telling us that Royal Navy drugs and fishing enforcement activities are illegal acts of piracy?
When you say "alternative headline" do you mean alternative to every headline outside Israel ?
or are you telling us that Royal Navy drugs and fishing enforcement activities are illegal acts of piracy?
So you must pretty upset with your Tory government then ratty ? Because William Hague has deplored the killings and called for an end to the Gaza blockade.
Maybe he thinks Royal Navy activities are illegal acts of piracy too ?
called for an end to the Gaza blockade.
[u]Called for an end to[/u] - he didn't claim it was illegal or a breach of any form of law, he didn't claim it was an act of piracy!
[u]deplores the loss of life[/u] - thats what he said, didn't allege that they were illegal, immoral or unjustified (given that troops acted in self defence after being attacked with knives and iron bars by 'peace activists'), he deplored the fact that lives had been lost!
i'm not saying that they're right in their methods but until a cease fire is agreed isreal retain the right to defend, the whole thing is a bloody mess but how can people always say that the isrealis are always wrong when they'rwe not doing anything worse to their nieghbours than they're neighbours are doing to them, and where exactly are they supposed to go? let's not forget who created isreal in the first place it was the west was it not? and now things are messy we turn our backs and let them stand alone?
ernie lynch, zionist?, stop talking out of your arse man, are you seriously telling me that you'd give a shit what anyone else thought of you're methods if you'd kept your family safe! what exactly would you not do if it came down to it? would you allow them to be murdered because there is only so far you would go.
yes the isrealis have made many mistakes but they have to defend themselves and they've nowhere else to go so what do you suggest, what's your answer to the problem, mine is mediation keep trying to tell both sides that the bloodshed will not stop until they come to an agreement and learn to live in peace as neighbours, you hit me i hit you may not work in all situations but both sides are bad as each other and neither should take anymore blame than the other.
he didn't claim it was illegal
So the UK government is at odds with the UN and is claiming that the blockade is "legal" ? 😯
I don't believe you. Prove that the UK government is contradicting the UN.
mmb - Member
"i don't hit the guy next door because he's bigger and i'll get flattened as a result common sense really and if the arabs excercised a little we wouldn't be having this discussion it only takes a few brain cells to stay away from the guy with a bigger stick and if they were left alone in the first place they would have no need to take such extreme action'"
The guy next door isn't happy to stay there, he's knocked through into your living room and bricked up the door that leads from it into the rest of the house. Also he's cut off the water supply to your bathroom. Still going to stay away from him? Still think it's perfectly reasonable for him to attack you if you take action against him, just because he has the bigger stick? Or would you be happy to "leave him alone" after he's nicked your land and your water?
So the UK government is at odds with the UN and is claiming that the blockade is "legal" ?
Where did I say that Ernie?
I think you'll find I said he [u]didn't claim it was illegal[/u] significantly different things!
Tell you what, even better - you point me to a UN resolution that says the blockade is illegal!
but most of these isreali actions are the result of them trying to find ways of getting rid of the population that just keeps on causing trouble, aren't seiges also an accepted way of war, starve them out kick them out it's all the same thing the only reason the guy next door wants my garden is to stop me throwing bombs over the fence so he pushes me far enough away to stop it,at least that's better then all the death and misery is it not?. and before you say it no that doesn't work either so we come back to the point i have been trying to make, neither are right neither are wrong both sides are as bad as each other so stop having a go at the isrealis just because they are more effective at the same thing.
"the only reason the guy next door wants my garden is to stop me throwing bombs over the fence so he pushes me far enough away to stop it,"
Rubbish. Sticking with the already strained metaphor, he took the bottom of the garden, you threw petrol bombs at him as a result, so now he's completely within his rights to take the rest of the garden to keep you further away?
neither are right neither are wrong both sides are as bad as each other so stop having a go at the isrealis just because they are more effective at the same thing.
Bollocks - Israel is a rich, militarily powerful country - Palestine has been bombed to shit - starved of basic human rights - water, electricity and basic supplies.
Israel has also killed many more civilians than the 'terrorists' of Hamas.
he took the bottom of the garden to push the trouble maker out of range! make it harder for him it didn't work so he took the rest, wrong thing to do granted but that's better than more bombs! why can't you see that both sides are wrong and both are employing tactics that lead to more death.
Hague's full statement:
"??I deplore the loss of life during the interception of the Gaza Flotilla. Our Embassy is in urgent contact with the Israeli Government. We are asking for more information and urgent access to any UK nationals involved.? ?
We have consistently advised against attempting to access Gaza in this way, because of the risks involved. But at the same time, there is a clear need for Israel to act with restraint and in line with international obligations. It will be important to establish the facts about this incident, and especially whether enough was done to prevent deaths and injuries. ?
This news underlines the need to lift the restrictions on access to Gaza, in line with UNSCR 1860. The closure is unacceptable and counter-productive. There can be no better response from the international community to this tragedy than to achieve urgently a durable resolution to the Gaza crisis.
I call on the Government of Israel to open the crossings to allow unfettered access for aid to Gaza, and address the serious concerns about the deterioration in the humanitarian and economic situation and about the effect on a generation of young Palestinians?."
I think this has the potential to be a very bad tempered thread; instead of taking opposite sides, why not think and post positively about how we change things for the better? (without rubbishing the other side)
I know it's not the STW way, nor has it had much impact in the area, but from tiny acorns and all that..
you see what's happening here on this discussion, we ourselves are having the same issue in so much as we're not willing to concede that were as wrong as each other and will get nowhere until we agree or a bigger stick comes along to make us see sense, everything i have said has been taken and used against me and everything you have said has been used against you, this situation has gone on for so long now that no-one side is either right or wrong anymore they just keep on killing each other thinking that one day the other will give in! i won't convince you that you're wrong anymore than you'll convince me that i'm wrong and so the misery continues.
Cheers lifer - as I said, no allegation that its illegal, just a belief that it should be lifted.
UN resolution does not call the blockade illegal either, just that the UN thinks humanitarian aid should be permitted unimpeded
[i]1. The Security Council stresses the urgency of and calls for an immediate, durable and fully respected ceasefire, leading to the full withdrawal of Israeli forces from Gaza.
2. The Security Council calls for the unimpeded provision and distribution throughout Gaza of humanitarian assistance, including of food, fuel and medical treatment.
3. The Security Council welcomes the initiatives aimed at creating and opening humanitarian corridors and other mechanisms for the sustained delivery of humanitarian aid.
4. The Security Council calls on member states to support international efforts to alleviate the humanitarian and economic situation in Gaza, including through urgently needed additional contributions to UNWRA and through the Ad Hoc Liaison Committee.[/i]
crikey you're right suggestions on probable solutions would be far more constructive, my suggestions would be constant mediation between both sides and some goodwill gestures from both sides! would anyone care to suggest any goodwill gestures?.
you point me to a UN resolution that says the blockade is illegal!
You are not aware that the UN has passed resolutions demanding Israel withdraws from occupied territories
ratty ? !!!
The UN does not recognise that Israel has withdrawn from Gaza [u]precisely[/u] because it maintains the land, sea, and air blockade. The blockade is illegal.
Furthermore, the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights has declared the blockade illegal as it amounts to collective punishment of civilians. Which is prohibited under the Geneva Conventions on the conduct of warfare and occupation.
They rely on the actions of each other to maintain power. The blockade is perfect propaganda for Hamas to garner support, and the actions of Hamas are perfect propaganda for the continuation of the blockade.
United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights has declared the blockade illegal
Thats his personal [u]opinion[/u] - not the official opinion of the united nations which is expressed only in forms of a resolution, resolutions so far call for a ceasefire as a prerequisite for the withdrawal - the last ceasefire was broken by Hamas!
Ban Ki-moon recently called the blockade "not sustainable" and "counter-productive" - he clearly doesn't think its illegal else he would have said so.
as I said, show me a resolution that states the blockade is illegal, without that you've got nothing but an opinion.
The blockade is perfect propaganda for Hamas to garner support
The blockade was imposed in punishment for Hamas winning the elections in Gaza.
In other words, "this is what you get when we don't like the election results".
So it would appear that Hamas doesn't need the blockade to win support.
mmb - Member
"he took the bottom of the garden to push the trouble maker out of range!"
No he didn't. This is what's right at the bottom of it, and it's the one part that might be worth convincing you of. The whole moral equivelancy/neccesary protection etc arguments, you're right that those are too dyed in the wool but when you take it right back to the start, the first rock wasn't cast by palestinians. Violence begets violence and you get into the whole horrible cycle but there was a first step, and that shouldn't be forgotten.
show me a resolution that states the blockade is illegal
You really are stupid aren't you ?
The UN considers Gaza to be still be under Israeli occupation because of the blockade. The occupation is illegal. There is no need for further resolutions. Just for Israel to comply.
Thats his personal opinion
Funnily enough ratty, I am more interested in the opinion of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights, on whether Israel is in violation of the Geneva Convention over the blockade - not yours.
He says that it is, and that's good enough for me.
who cares what a lone UN employee says? Its irrelevant.
There is ONE body at the UN that can make this determination, and they haven't - which speaks volumes!
Anyway, Israel isn't even a signatory of the 1977 addendum to article 4 of Geneva, so cannot be in breach of them!