We’re getting close to this thread being closed I fear….
Why?, everything that has been posted so far has also been reported by the press, whether that be tv, radio, print outlets.
Why?, everything that has been posted so far has also been reported by the press, whether that be tv, radio, print outlets.
Because there is a "no Gaza/Middle East" policy in force on the forum. Because some people cannot help but use inflammatory language on the subject.
Not saying that's the right approach, but people just need to be careful another thread isn't lost.
On a different note then, Sunak's tax return was read out on the radio the other day. A total annual income of £2m, attracting a payment of just 21% yes 21% tax. Let that sink in to the cost of living crises we all face, and the 2% tax break he gave some people.
We’re getting close to this thread being closed I fear….
Yup because the usual suspects start throwing personal insults.
You and the other left wingers on here are getting boring....
Eylon Levy
Agreed he's off the scale.
When he comes on the radio I'm aghast at how good he is at stomping his point all over everything.
Very good media training - unfortunately for everyone else.
Peace and stability? Like there has been for centuries… What’s your real solution?
As was pointed out, there were several centuries of peace and cohabitation until the West started carving things up
There's always been conflicts, one empire against another (Ottoman/Persian/etc), one religion against another or whatever, it was not some Utopian landscape before the west turned up, the west have been turning up for a couple of millennia, it just adds to more empires and religions getting involved.
This thread is just turning into the usual west is bad, middle east good style nonsense as always, as if we've ruined it all for the middle east and would be better off believing in some daft prophet, having sharia law and so on would benefit the world.
@stumpyjon makes a good point. The majority of any population just want to have a peaceful life. It's the extremists (largely politicians) who create friction and conflict. I'm reminded of a quotation from somewhere - "Extremists are like shit. Spread out they do a lot of good but in a heap they stink".
You are determined to make this about religion, aren’t you? When all else fails attack Islam.
So you're saying religion has nothing to do with the violence and misery in the middle east?
As the above post mentions, extremists and those with power use religion for their own gain, rewriting the words to suit their aims.
p.s, i have the same disdain for all the US subsets of christianity who use it to wield their will.
In comparison to Europe which was constantly at war, often over religion, the Middle East had centuries of relative peace with Muslims, Jews, and Christians, living side by side.
It all changed a hundred years ago when Europeans decided to wade in for the first time since the crusades, but just dismiss it as a coincidence.
The current conflict in Palestine has nothing to do with religion, it is to do with "settlers", colonialism, and appalling injustices.
Do you think that Native Americans were butchered and had their lands stolen because of "religion"? There is fundamentally no difference between the treatment that Palestinians are currently experiencing and that of Native Americans 150 years ago.
The world might have moved forward but not in the Middle East.
As the above post mentions, extremists and those with power use religion for their own gain
Exactly. It's not religion per se that is the cause, it is the appropriation of religion by trouble makers.
In comparison to Europe which was at war, often over religion, the Middle East had centuries of relative peace with Muslims, Jews, and Christians, living side by side.
Ernie, what's your definition of relative peace?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_in_the_Near_East#Conflicts_involving_the_Ottoman_empire Scroll down from the 16th Century to the 20th (as I understand it Middle East is essentially the modern term for Near East)
Relative to Europe. Have you any idea how many people died in the Napoleonic Wars? Check how French died in WW1. And Europeans were murdering Jews by their millions 80 years ago. Imagine Arabs doing that? No I can't either.
Ernie you're at it again, stop trying to compare atrocities, Europe, Muddle East doesnt matter, loads of people died, combatantscand civilans in unending conflict. Trying to make out the West is worse because mire have died is stupid, technology has made it easier to kill people in grester numbers, if twentieth century weapons had been available in the middle east earlier many more would have died.
As for religion not being involved, hello, Judasim is the justification for Israel. And your analogy with the westward expansion in the States was driven as much by religion as economics. Where do you think the bible belt came from? Persecution and genocide of the indigenous population was as much about Christanity vs the heathen as it was land grab. You can't seperate the two, same in the middle east today.
The Groundhog Day thread.
stop trying to compare atrocities
Sorry mate you brought up the subject, not me:
They’re all bad, Hamas, Israel, Saudi, Houthis, Hezbollah, Syria etc. etc. All of them have escalated things at different times, all have committed war crimes, all target civilians indiscriminately.
And I totally agree that no ethnoreligious group should be singled out as being particularly bad, so let's not do that, okay?
I have issues with zionism which a political ideology, in the same way as the white supremacists in South Africa had Apartheid as their political ideology, or anti-semitic Germans had Nazism. Judaism is not the issue, as the presence of many Jews on today's huge demo in London testified.
Deleted
E: Demanding that Israel stops its current slaughter of innocent civilians* is more likely to bring peace and stability to the region.
T: Peace and stability? Like there has been for centuries… What’s your real solution?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_in_the_Near_East#Conflicts_involving_the_Ottoman_empire
Ernie, having accepted that the Middle East hasn't had peace and stability for centuries, merely "relative to Europe", what's your realistic, workable solution to Houthi rebels attacking international shipping?
(You can use US strikes if that's part of your solution, "But provisions in U.S. law give the White House the authority to launch limited foreign military action, experts say. "There's not actually a strong case to prevent Biden from this kind of action," said Michael O'Hanlon, director of research in foreign policy at the Brookings Institution." https://www.reuters.com/world/us/did-biden-break-law-by-ordering-yemen-airstrikes-2024-01-12/ )
I'll go a little off topic by going on topic.😁
Interesting piece on the Beeb a few mins ago.
Germany is looking to recommission many of its thousands of civil nuclear shelters after recent events in Ukraine.
It's probably a prudent move but I wonder how much difference such a move makes in reality? Tiny isolated communities surviving past the initial war only to be wiped out by thirst/ starvation during a nuclear winter.
If mankind survives such an even at all, we'll be back to the stone age but worse as we'll Jhave long forgotten all the survival techniques we knew in those times.
It's reckoned that at some point in our distant past, (800,000 - 900,00 YA) human population reduced by as much as 95-98%, and was a few as a couple of thousand people, so it's not like its not happened before.
we’ll have long forgotten all the survival techniques we knew in those times.
Nah, have you not seen those preppers? Most are well over 250lbs, that's enough blubber to see through a winter or two.
what’s your realistic, workable solution to Houthi rebels attacking international shipping?
I assume from your phrasing that you are discounting the obvious step of stopping the genocide in Gaza. If your criteria for “realistic” includes “acceptable to US and Israel” then it does reduce the options somewhat.
Ernie, having accepted that the Middle East hasn’t had peace and stability for centuries, merely “relative to Europe”, what’s your realistic, workable solution to Houthi rebels attacking international shipping?
"Merely"? You don't think that it is important to point out Europe's bloody history of instability and wars when the usual, and invariably racist, nonsense about the Middle East gets routinely dragged up?
And the solution to attacks to shipping in the Red Sea? Well that is very simple - don't go through the Red Sea and instead sail south and around South Africa. Which is precisely what a lot of shipping is currently doing.
Obviously that hits Western consumers in the pocket and might fuel inflation but hey, better than war and slaughter of innocent civilians, no?
Of course the other alternative is to stop supplying Israel with advanced weapons to carry out their regular turkey shoot against unarmed civilians and force a ceasefire. But not many Western governments seem to fancy that alternative, certainly not before the US President has decided. So an escalation of war and more killing appears to be the preferred option.
Btw did you know that apparently the Houthis rebels now have the capability to make their own drones at the cost of about £20k each, and the missiles used by the British and French navies to knock them out cost about $1 million each?
An important consideration if economic calculations are a driving factor I would have thought.
I assume from your phrasing that you are discounting the obvious step of stopping the genocide in Gaza.
The International Court of Justice is deciding whether it is genocide.
There are strong emotions on every side, understandably, but the Houthi rebels and their Iranian backers have been attacking commercial shipping prior to the 7th October attacks in Israel.
It's massively ironic that a series of agreements that would have brought greater stability to the Middle Eastern region were in the process of being signed by Israel and various neighbouring countries and have been damaged, possibly irretrievably, by the subsequent actions on both sides. The only reason for this is to maintain power for political groups such as Hamas and the Houthi movement that don't have statehood but enjoy the trappings of power.
If your criteria for “realistic” includes “acceptable to US and Israel” then it does reduce the options somewhat.
The Houthis have attacked two Russian "shadow fleet" oil tankers that were circumventing sanctions, although the attacks were probably in error. The Houthis are taking deliberate actions and making mistakes that will lead to the loss of livelihoods for the Red Sea fishing fleets, amongst others, and more economic problems for the Middle East's population, for example, in the loss of tourism for years should a chemical/oil spill result. It isn't all about the "west" https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/houthis-mistakenly-target-tanker-carrying-russian-oil-ambrey-report-2024-01-12/
The International Court of Justice is deciding whether it is genocide.
Genocide is genocide, whatever the pronouncements of a group of individuals in The Hague. The courts decided that subpostmasters were thieves, remember.
a series of agreements that would have brought greater stability to the Middle Eastern region
Everyone deciding that the Palestinians are expendable is not a great basis for lauding "stability".
Wow! You even mention Corbyn timba! 🤣
It’s massively ironic that a series of agreements that would have brought greater stability to the Middle Eastern region were in the process of being signed by Israel and various neighbouring countries and have been damaged, possibly irretrievably, by the subsequent actions on both sides. The only reason for this is to maintain power for political groups such as Hamas and the Houthi movement that don’t have statehood but enjoy the trappings of power.
Do you mean the Abraham Accord, or the recent deal proposed between Israel and Saudi Arabia? Because neither have involved any delegation or voice from the Palestinian people, and are to do with economic interests and nothing to do with actual peace. The most recent 'deal' is so that Israel and Saudi can buy arms and technology from one another. Israel obviously wants to destroy any possibility of a free Palestinian state, and Saudi wants to destroy any resistance to their own ideological aims to control Yemen (and its considerable resources). The real irony here is that it's Israel's own actions that have damaged any possibility of a 'normalisation' deal between themselves and Saudi, who are now demanding the formation of a Palestinian state if such a deal is to proceed. <br /><br /> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67922238
Nothing that is happening now is about peace. It's all only about money. And so the genocide continues; whilst there is profit in war, there can be no peace.
Nah, have you not seen those preppers? Most are well over 250lbs, that’s enough blubber to see through a winter or two.
Remember the covid lockdowns? They were all out protesting that they couldnt get their hair cut.
I wonder if the future generations would have the legends of raygrll who taught them the skills to survive.
An important consideration if economic calculations are a driving factor I would have thought.
I expect this was a consideration when deciding to launch airstrikes. Its possibly not the approach you want to solving the question but having something come back the other way will alter the Houthis calculations I suspect.
Oddly HMS Diamond was reported as using guns as well. So it may be they deliberately waited to engage the drones with gunfire to avoid using up missiles. That said it was Shapp saying it so he could have just defaulted to using alternate names for the same thing.
having something come back the other way will alter the Houthis calculations I suspect.
I doubt it. The Houthis have been enduring hundreds, possibly thousands, of Saudi airstrikes in the last ten years. It has made no discernable difference and the Saudis appear to have given up.
In fact the evidence suggests that the Houthis welcome the US/UK airstrikes as it bolsters their influence in the region. And my understanding is that as a geurrila army their bases and arms storage are not static so they can easily adapt and relocate.
The recent airstrikes would certainly have been fully expected.
I doubt it. The Houthis have been enduring hundreds, possibly thousands, of Saudi airstrikes in the last ten years. It has made no discernable difference and the Saudis appear to have given up
Over 25,000 strikes/bombings by Saudi forces aided by the UK defence force in the last few years, I doubt many folk on here could name the amount of deaths caused or offer any insight without looking it up
Over 25,000 strikes/bombings by Saudi forces aided by the UK defence force in the last few years, I doubt many folk on here could name the amount of deaths caused or offer any insight without looking it up
What about the other side of the actual civil war in Yemen thats been going on for over a decade, add them in or discount them, or those starving due to the war, are they in your calculations?
The real irony here is that it’s Israel’s own actions that have damaged any possibility of a ‘normalisation’ deal between themselves and Saudi, who are now demanding the formation of a Palestinian state if such a deal is to proceed. (my bold)> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67922238
I read that same article ^^ differently; there isn't an irony, negotiations always included an independent state of Palestine, "[A deal] was close, there is no question. For us, the final end point definitely included nothing less than an independent state of Palestine. So, while we still - going forward after 7 October - believe in normalisation, it does not come at the cost of the Palestinian people," Prince Khalid said. (My bold)
He added: "We were close to normalisation, therefore close to a Palestinian state. One doesn't come without the other. The sequencing, how it is managed, that is what was being discussed."
Negotiations must also include "The Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and Israel"
The summary on page23 "VI Conclusions" is sufficient to get an understanding of why the normalisation deal is important
I thought that these were relevant points having brought the subject up in the first place, but now that really is it from me 🙂
I read that same article ^^ differently<br /><br />
I'm sure you did. We all choose to interpret things according to our own agendae. But the reality is that the clause regarding the formation of a Palestinian state could easily have been sidelined in favour of a quick resolution, as such things often are. But now that the Israeli regime has chosen to inflict genocide on the Palestinians, it has become a much larger issue, and bargaining chip for the Saudis. Who will have little genuine compassion or care for the fate of Palestinian people, but will want to use the moral high ground to their advantage; let's not forget that the Saudis still actually hate Israel. So they would see 'forcing' Israel to cede to their demands as a real ideological 'victory'. <br /><br />
there isn’t an irony<br /><br />
Of course there is. Israel's position is now a lot weaker following their genocidal actions. Global support for Israel is evaporating rapidly. <br /><br />
Btw did you know that apparently the Houthis rebels now have the capability to make their own drones at the cost of about £20k each, and the missiles used by the British and French navies to knock them out cost about $1 million each?
Someone, somewhere, is making an awful lot of money right now. And any of us here that have pensions and nvestments, we're probably benefitting indirectly from it all. As innocents are murdered.
"training excercise"
Is that the same thing as a 'special operation'? or is it just more tory double speak?
“training excercise”
It was announced back in September. It coincides with Nordic Response, the largest exercise to be held in the Nordic region; Finland will be taking part as a new NATO member.
It's normal (even the Steadfast Defender name has been used before) apart from its scale
Coincidentally, the UK is taking it's turn as lead nation in NATO’s Very High Readiness Joint Task Force in 2024 (Germany in 2023)
But the reality is that the clause regarding the formation of a Palestinian state could easily have been sidelined in favour of a quick resolution, as such things often are
There's some whataboutery going on there. They aren’t idiots, there will never be any long term solution without a plan for a Palestinian state, everyone knows that (including the Israeli government)
I doubt many folk on here could name the amount of deaths caused or offer any insight without looking it up
c.f. Libyan civil war, Syrian civil war, Iraqi war with Isis, Iraqi Insurgency, Iranian-Kurdish conflicts , Turkish-Kurdish conflict
