[Closed] Working your contracted hours... And feeling guilty!

There does seem to be a something for nothing culture in this country, a contract is a contract. A bit extra now and then is ok as long as there's quid pro quo. Which fortunately is how it works where I am currently.

This.

Not:

If your role isn't that demanding, and you have limited aspirations, then go for it. If however you would like a promotion at some point, or not to be at the top of the list if where you work is contracting, I'd say it's pretty unwise not to work reasonable overtime

If your boss doesn't value your skills and achievements you deliver in a 37hr-ish week, find another one. "Working long hours" is not adequate reason or a measure for promotion by itself. That has been drummed into you at some point.

My contracted hours are 9-5 m-f plus whatever else is reasonably requested by my employer. That's what it says in my contract so for me staying late within reason isn't doing more for no pay, it's doing what I'm already paid fairly well to do. I knew what the job involved when I got into it, and although I'd like an assistant to pick up some of the excess work I'm not in a position to rock the boat if I value the rest of my career.

Highg5 makes a good point.

What your opinion on the same question but adding the parameter of being highly paid or not?

i.e. I would have thought those earning an average wage might be less inclined to put extra hours in than those earning say, over £40k a year.

True or not?

not for me.

Kryton57 - Member
Highg5 makes a good point.

What your opinion on the same question but adding the parameter of being highly paid or not?

i.e. I would have thought those earning an average wage might be less inclined to put extra hours in than those earning say, over £40k a year.

True or not?

No in my world.

Only twice in the last 5 years have i left even 1 min past my contracted finishing time. I have Overtime sure, no worries, but i get paid for it. I have 24x7 callouts, but i also get paid for that. 1 call that last 10 seconds is 2 hours pay... i can live with that.

I'm contracted to work 7.5 hrs mon-fri

Some days I do 12, other days I do 4, it really depends on the workload that day.
I don't add them up at the end of the week/month/year because we don't need to log in and out of work so there's no data to use.

Bottom line, I've no idea if I'm over or under my contracted hours.

I should mention mine is paid overtime, not unpaid.

I'm a contractor, I get paid for 7.5 hours a day even if I work for 10. A 'professional' day is what they call it. Ha, no chance except if the poo hits the fan on something, but even then I'll take the time back.

The OP was about guilt and yes I do feel some guilt, which I shouldnt, for doing only my hours, but I tell myself to MTFU and go home, so it passes, usually the guilt fades once I'm on my bike on the way home.

Sometimes the hardest thing about work is to manage your manager. Setting their expectations, and keeping the contract, isnt always easy to balance.

I'd rather work at quality time with friends and especially family and have less money

^^this, and...

If you work more hours to get a job completed on time I would ask if the firm are prepared to flex the other way at slack times or when you need to get off. If not, then it's contracted hours only in my view.

I can tell you that no one feels guilty in my family business where i work. The entire factory staff are ready to leave by 16:50 and they stand around doing nothing until around 16:55 and leave. A girl in the office lives half a mile from work and she's late 9 times out of 10 but will still leave on time.
Whilst of course, i work 10 hour shifts 8-6 and just watch everyone walk over the company showing zero respect for my family.
Woah, sorry...rant over.

If I want a job where I work normal hours I'll have to move out of consultancy, any other option will pay a lot less, and be less interesting, so I put up with staying late when I'm needed. Some of my colleagues do work a lot of extra hours and get are more likely to get the promotions which is fair enough.

My job changes over the year, so one week I might work all the hours, but a few weeks later I'm taking it easy, generally, it probably evens out and i do what's in my contract. Where I previously worked that certainly wasn't the case and there was an expectation from (middle) management that you worked more than your contracted hours.

It's not unreasonable to stay late if you spend many of your contracted hours wittering away on a web forum.

chakaping - Member
It's not unreasonable to stay late if you spend many of your contracted hours wittering away on a web forum.

PMSL. *reports highly offensive post to Cougar*

Whilst of course, i work 10 hour shifts 8-6 and just watch everyone walk over the company showing zero respect for my family.

I don't understand why not wanting to work unpaid overtime is lack of respect?

footflaps I'm guessing he's referring to the slight arrivals / not making up the time whilst attempting to keep the family business afloat.

joshbosh - its your family - the problem is with management not the staff, there's plenty around that need jobs, it might help to remind your staff of that and the fact that if the business isn't profitable - what do they think your options will be?

You need to be the guardian of the gate so to speak - put your foot down.

Kryton57 - You're totally right in what you're saying. My fiancée always says the same [i]"well if i was you i'd tell them to get on with the f-in job"[/i] but i don't know why, i find it very difficult... i don't really want to be their friend but i also don't want to be their enemy.
My mum is the boss, my late grandfather founded the company. I'm also the youngest person here so instantly people will have slightly less respect for me.
You're also right in saying there's plenty of people who need work, but it's very hard to just sack someone in this country isn't it? It's also hard to find good people in little old Brecon.
The next 2 weeks will be the hardest, the boss is away and it's just me vs them!

Generally I’ve noticed there seems to be more and more of a long hours culture in the UK. Being constantly knackered and working 50+ hour weeks is seen as almost some sort of modern virtue”, and it’s quite easy to get sucked into it, it’s not such an issue if you have a home life that accommodates it and actually enjoy your job, but as soon as the work / life balance has to shift for whatever reason (Kids are a common cause) it’s interesting to see how an employer deals with that.
For my own part I moved companies primarily so I could do almost exactly the same job but in a nicer atmosphere, with less of a long hours/presentism culture and half the commute, simply to improve my work / life balance, and stress levels, I’m coming up for a year since that move and I know I made the right decision. I do work a bit beyond my contracted hours now and then, but this accrues as TOIL by default, so a couple of extra hours a week, over the course of a month gains you an extra days leave, and I normally knock off at lunch time on Fridays having done my hours, without an eyelid being batted... I realise now just how awful my previous employers really were...

I remember talking to an older colleague about long hours not so long ago and how the work place had changed over his ~35 years. It struck me that it’s really been the presence of computers in the workplace that has driven a lot of it. The fact that we can individually do more in a day with these tools means that, far from reducing the hours we work by making us more efficient, the expectation has become that workers can achieve exponentially more and more, leading to people working longer hours to keep up with the unrealistic expectations of poor managers...

If you can't get all your work done in your contracted hours then you are obviously [S]not very good at your job.[/S] Being asked to do too much

I had a wonderful meeting a couple of months ago with a planner who seemed to believe we could do a pretty substantial job in under a year, he was eventually asked to show us the resource profile (for those not into this stuff it’s basically sets the work to be done against personnel’s contracted hours) I had a resource allocation of 400% which basically meant he thought I could work 160 hour weeks for a year, He’d got my manager at something like 1600%. That Schedule was significantly changed, but it highlights the problems caused by unrealistic expectations...

being paid more than say the average wage doesnt change the goalposts in the slightest. Not one iota. Maybe people on lower money think it does, oooh he earns more so should work more, but I dont see any evidence. Earning more just means more experience / skills in a given field so the market pays more.

most of us, once we get to about 30 dont have a career, we have a job - discuss? 😉

joshbosh - they'll continue to have less respect for you if you let them walk over you. You are not their friend, you are thier boss. I asl appraciate your age comment - experience and maturity counts for a lot in these situations.

The best way to arm yourself is not to undermine your conversation; stick to the facts, ask for an explanation so you can consider any issues, and don't mention anything they are not interested in. IE, sit the latecomer down and day something like

"I've noticed a regular pattern of you turning up late for work, for example on Thursday at 9:10, last wedenesday at 9:15 (etc). I'm sure you appreciate the start time is 9:00 and I am paying you to work X hours. Could you explain why this is?"

- listen to the excuse, which may be valid - ie dropiing the kids off to school, traffic etc and discuss a viable alternative, ie start at 9:15 but end at 5:15.

Then you explain it isn't acceptable to trancend <the agreed hours> and if it continues you reserve the right to monitor the employess performance. Please try to fix it.

Give them an opportunity over an agreed period, let them know you are aware of it and that it isn't acceptable. Write that down as the "fix" and get them to sign that they agree to it.

Stage 2 after the agreed period - "If you can't do the job / abide by the rules, I know someone who can fulfil the job I'm asking to be done, would you like to continue doing that job?

Legally, get it all in writing, evidence based non compliance and the performance measure that they agree to (by signiture) then when that person is fired, there's no comeback.

Maybe it's about lack of a sense of ownership / personal relationship to the firm. It's [b]your[/b] family company, not theirs.

You work to live you don't live to work.

100%. Get this the wrong way round, and you've ****ed up. Both my wife and I could easily work more hours in the week, but as we have relatively small living costs, we can both afford to have more free time, which is far more valuable than money. We appreciate that we're both in a very privileged position though, and that countless other people have no choice but to work for far more hours.

On of the problems is that employers are constantly trying to squeeze more work out of less people, and the hours allocated simply aren't enough. And the further down the pecking order you go, the more employers take the piss.

Kryton57 - unfortunately i'm not the boss. I've just worked here as a standard employee for 6 years but i live with the boss.
As much as it pains me to say - my mum is too soft and has been since she took over as MD from my granddad many years ago. They all know that very little will happen when they under perform. Although we do have performance reviews coming up and i will be pushing her hard to bring up the things that i see on a day to day basis that she doesn't, they'll start being on time again for 3 months and then slowly they'll fall back to how they were before.
It's a pointless argument here really, i have rose tinted glasses on but the real problem is probably management. Still, just because the management aren't threatening to fire you every time you're late that doesn't mean being late is ok does it?

ti_pin_man - Member
Sometimes the hardest thing about work is to manage your manager. Setting their expectations, and keeping [s]the contract[/s], isnt always easy to balance.

Spot on Joe, my boss came from a job where 70+ hour weeks were the norm and almost looks at you like your slacking if you only do 50.
In reply to the statement

If you can't get all your work done in your contracted hours then you are obviously not very good at your job.

Josh bosh, not always a question of being harsh to sort things out.

Willing obedience is better than forced. Although sometimes forced is required.

I can tell you that no one feels guilty in my family business where i work. The entire factory staff are ready to leave by 16:50 and they stand around doing nothing until around 16:55 and leave. A girl in the office lives half a mile from work and she's late 9 times out of 10 but will still leave on time.
Whilst of course, i work 10 hour shifts 8-6 and just watch everyone walk over the company showing zero respect for my family.

Sounds like none of them are particularly motivated. Is there a reason for this? Lack of ultimate employment progression? Low wages? Low development ceiling? Is it their fault or yours?

I'm in a similar position to you (I manage a section of the family business). We're lucky to have a great team, but they aren't cheap (there are one or two here who actually draw larger salaries than I do, even though I am 'senior' to them, but they work more hours than me)! And we are quite flexible with working hours; one guy wanted to go on holiday recently, which ate into his normal holiday allocation, but we agreed for him to do a certain amount of work whilst away, to make up for it, and some extra hours when back here. I appreciate not all businesses can operate this way however. But we feel that treating our staff well leads to a happier workplace and a more successful business. It's an ethic which has proven to work well for us. I've had to tell people to stop work and go home more than once! But such dedication doesn't come by accident, it has to be carefully engineered. Work hard, and you reap the rewards. If the rewards aren't worth the effort, then people won't put any in.

thx1138 - quite right. Unfortunately we're not in the position to pay more money, we're barley breaking even right now. Problem is, to get more money, we need more orders, to get more orders, we need a good sales team.

Then why not offer incentives, such as a team bonus if the reach or exceed a particular target for the next month/quarter/year etc? Give them something to be motivated about.

As others have said, it sounds like more a failure or management (your family) than it does with the workers. And something that may be very difficult for you to face, is the reality that you might not actually be the best people to lead the company. One of the problems with inherited positions is that the inheritors might not share the enthusiasm, motivation, skill, knowledge and indeed aptitude needed to run the company, that the founders/predecessors had. Are you in it purely out of a sense of familial duty, or because you genuinely have a love of the work/interest of how the company succeeds? Is your heart really in it? If the answer to that is 'no', then maybe it's time to step aside and let someone who is sufficiently passionate/skilled take charge.

*puts helmet on*
I work in the NHS. For the last 4yrs, in my bit, anyway, we have been losing highly qualified staff and having the posts going to "savings" (for what? Christmas??). We are now at a stage where our part of the service is only being maintained by goodwill and a disregard for the working time directive (by both staff and management). Sure, a degree of "flexi-time" can be accrued but it rarely gets taken within the alloted month and is, usually, lost. Most of my qualified staff put about 4hrs/week in, extra, as unpaid, I often do a bit more than that.
Things are now deteriorating as talk of "reprofiling and downgrading" begins to surface and the enormous amount of goodwill that the staff have shown is, effectively, thrown back in their face. We've tried our best to help the Trust get through a bad time and this is the reward for it.
Goodwill is about to do an Elvis.

thx1138 - i'm not the boss.
yes im passionate about the job and so is my mum but she can't afford for people to just up and leave and neither can we afford bonus's.
I'm afraid i don't believe you need incentives to do your job

joshbosh12 - Member
thx1138 - quite right. Unfortunately we're not in the position to pay more money, [b]we're barley breaking even right now[/b]. Problem is, to get more money, we need more orders, to get more orders, we need a good sales team.

Add reputation, motivated / interested and productive work force. Have a word with the ne'er do wells. Then have a team meeting about barely breaking even, find a performance measure and a reward. Incentives don't have to be about money - a member of the telesales team over the other side of the office got every afternoon on Friday's in March off because he hit his weekly target every week in January.

Whats the line of business out of interest?

I'm afraid i don't believe you need incentives to do your job

Really? Do you really believe that? Then accept that your staff will do the bare minimum needed to get paid then, and take every opportunity to do as little as possible. sorry, but this attitude marks you out as unsuitable to lead a business. Without incentives, there is no reason why the staff will put themselves out for your company; they will work for their own benefit and not yours.

I've worked in jobs where I was basically 'cannon fodder'; instantly disposable and replaceable by employers who didn't care about their employees. Several of those companies have either folded or suffered serious problems. They didn't offer me any incentives, so I saw no reason to give them my best. I did the minimum I had to, picked up my wages and looked for something better. Most other staff I worked with did exactly the same.

I'm afraid i don't believe you need incentives to do your job

Really?

You're not fit for purpose, does your mum [the boss] know that's how you manage employees?

You need incentives, money in the pay packet is usually only a short-term incentive.

I'm afraid i don't believe you need incentives to do your job

😯

I'm not sure what you mean by his tbh. If there's no incentive to do a job, it doesn't get done! There has to be a reward system somewhere.

That might be improving ones pay packet, it might be the warm glow of getting the job done and done well. It might be positional gain. Otherwise stagnation and apathy beckon. But all of these things require managing from the top down.

THX - he's admitted to be youn(ger) and experienced.

Us experienced middle managers could give him the benefit of our experience with some advice maybe?

I used to work for a big American multinational. The Americans attitude to working hours is absolutely bonkers. The standard working day was long enough anyway 8-5.

But the hours people ended up working was insane. Not all of us, mind. In true American Corporate fashion there was a core of salaried full-time staff, the rest of us were contract/freelance. As we were paid by the hour, they couldn't wait to get us out of the door at the end of the day. However, the salaried staff used to stay for hours. Nobody used to leave before 7. As this was just the culture. Everyone did it. Every single day. And it was remarked upon if they didn't.

In these extra hours, did they produce any more work than the rest of us freelancers? Nope! It was completely pointless. Just there purely for appearances. They'd be surfing the web and chatting. Nobody actually did anything. But they wouldn't be seen to be the first to leave. Mental! 🙄

Guys, guys, guys i've said twice now that i'm not a manager, i just work here and witness what happens - i have no say in anything.
And what i meant by my incentives comment was i don't think you should need money bonuses to work hard (sorry, i'll get my coat) I do like the idea of having days off if you do a good job.
Our line of work is manufacturing, we deal heavily in component obsolescence for military, aerospace, motor vehicles and space.

And what i meant by my incentives comment was i don't think you should need money bonuses to work hard (sorry, i'll get my coat)

No you shouldn't.... but in the real world you do.

I'm afraid i don't believe you need incentives to do your job

You don't necessarily need financial incentives, no.

Your workforce has to believe that they are working for the common good, that there is something in it for them beyond a salary. This could be professional pride, job satisfaction, camaraderie, but your work has to be rewarded emotionally as well as financially. People usually want to work hard at something when they have a personal stake in it. If you give people responsibility they usually rise to the challenge. If you don't, they feel disenfranchised and demoralised.

I don't see a problem with it if both sides are flexible. Sometimes you are busy so need to work on a bit, sometimes it's quiet so you can relax or go home early. It's impossible to manage staff and time so that everyone has exactly the right amount of work all the time without constantly hiring and firing or having massively flexible deadlines.

I worked somewhere where it was required that everyone did 2 hours extra every day. That was just poor form, IME. They paid well and looked after the staff but it was a bit of a p take.

These days I'm freelance so I'm much happier to do what it takes to get the job done and take time off when I like/can. Some weeks are crazy hours but it's not so bad when it's all for my own benefit.

I've never really thought about this and it's been interesting seeing the different views/practices.

I have had jobs where I've worked way more hours than I was contracted to do - but these have tended to be smaller companies where I enjoyed the work, liked the people I worked with, got respect from the senior people who appreciated that we were trying to make a difference to the company and were flexible.

Much larger companies tend to be less flexible but it's often driven by your immediate managerment - which ends up being passed down. If you have a ladder climbing senior boss then they expect everyone to be the same.

I remember a university work placement I did where one boss stopped the students having flexi-time after one guy abused it. The result was we all worked just our contracted hours (supported by immediate bosses), deadlines got pushed back as there was not enough time to get everything done and the brown stuff hit the fan.

It lasted 2 weeks before it got changed back.

I'm currently working about 10 hours a day with just under 3 hours of travelling on top and have pretty much been doing this since October 2011. I've found the last 15 months quite trying.

I guess I'm fairly lucky in that although I work for a big company they do take the work/life balance fairly seriously. I'm contracted for 37.5 hours but usually end up working 40ish (5 hours extra during the working week is expected to be non-O/T). If we have a project deadline looming then I'm fine with working 50+ to get the job done (again usually unpaid additional hours) but that's because those periods are normally fairly short (week or two) and infrequent (every 3-4 months). If it started to become the norm then I'd start to kick-back and raise objections.
Ofc if the company you work for is struggling then 'mucking in' and doing unpaid extra hours is probably in your short-term interest anyway but it's a fine line between this and getting exploited.
No way I'd do 60+ hours a week on a regular basis unless I actually enjoyed my job, I bet a lot of people that do probably end up on less than minimum wage as a result - you're better sacking it off and flipping burgers or something.

aP - Member
I'm currently working about 10 hours a day with just under 3 hours of travelling on top and have pretty much been doing this since October 2011. I've found the last 15 months quite trying.

Ouch !

Ouch again