Forum menu
Fixing something is not about what it is.
Its about understanding what it’s supposed to do .
Why it doesnt do what it’s supposed to do
What needs to happen to make it do what it’s supposed to do.
Thats a quote from me from the bike mechanic wages thread.
I'm also a degree qualified mechanical engineer. That gives me the theory and maths behind why things are the way they are. First and foremost in my work I apply the above. -be that to fix it , repair it or redesign it.
Its a mentality driven from working with my dad on cars, motorbikes , push bikes and house DIY.
Now while for example I don't have any interest in toilet cisterns .....if it stops working it takes me about 10 minutes to look at it -work out what each part is supposed to do in the system -follow the system through and work out what piece isn't doing its thing.
Its the same with a car just a wider range of hypothesis to explore -of which they are narrowed down by knowing which area of the vehicle your having issues with. -ie a limited number of systems operate the brakes....a limited number operate the clutch and a limited number are the transmission etc.
Some people have that ability. Your not born with it at an advanced level. Its developmental. A car is an excellent example of a complex system that you can break down into smaller systems in your minds eye by classification of the systems.
A bicycle is the same but on a much smaller and simpler scale. A stepping stone in that its immediately obvious where the disconnect between systems is.
That's not to say the car is the only way and you may have got this from other complex systems. But the car is something a majority of people had availible to them when me and Kenneth above were growing up(we studied at the same place)
I do think electric cars will kill this off for the majority. - I also think it will radically shake up garages mentalities. You'll need auto electricians on site or you'll be nothing more than a tire and brake centre.......
Much less repairing of parts with newer cars, just replacing. The mechanical side has not moved on much beyond tweaking or manufacturing ease. Once a design works it works. (Wishbone suspension, disc brakes, overhead multi cam - multi valve engines etc).
My 1.0 Focus feels every bit as robust & proven as its predecessor, just more electrics.
Many dealerships actually farm out work to indies if they aren’t a straight replacement job. Eg: tow bars!!!
Look up salvagerebuildsuk on YouTube, him & his mechanic are old school, well his mate is, the main chap had never set a set of points. 🙂
As nostalgic as it is, things like setting points & re-building/re-jetting/balancing carbs has little relevance these days, unless you are in to much older (<1970’s) cars. It’s nit as though being able to re-set points will get you home when your ECU has cut the fuel pump down because the drivers module, the signal from which tells it it might be time to start the car soon, is playing up.
I am finding it hard to bid goodbye to my old (2004) TDi Galaxy. It’s say on the drive. Makes a great shed. 🙂 Tech wise, it just about pre-dates things DPF’s. It’s probably got years left in it at 130k.
Some people have that ability. Your not born with it at an advanced level. Its developmental. A car is an excellent example of a complex system that you can break down into smaller systems in your minds eye by classification of the systems.
My dad was very old school mechanic, first job was changing a model t-ford gearbox at the ford dealership !!.
He didn’t take much time on getting upto speed on k-jetronic when I had issues with early Porsche 924 fuelling.
What a beaut that vw lt engine was having to get the correctly sized shims right Total ball ache as not having a box of different ones meant measure and order, hydraulic tappets yum yum.
He said we couldn’t pride ourselves on driving if we knew nothing about what we were actually driving. It wasn’t good enough to simply be able to put the petrol pump nozzle in the side of the car.
Does anyone else feel a sense of loss over the increasing inaccessibility of cars?
No real interest in working on my car(s), never need something I’ve aspired to and tbh the idea that I need to do this to have some pride in my driving strikes me as a bit rubbish. I also can’t fix an oven, a computer or many of the other devices I use, I pay someone who can. Watching wheeler dealers is about the limit of my mechanical journey.
the idea that I need to do this to have some pride in my driving strikes me as a bit rubbish. I also can’t fix an oven, a computer or many of the other devices I use,
I managed to source a technical manual for the Giulia recently. Proper fascinating reading for me.
I have read quite a few of the training manuals for various bits of VAG cars, they are fascinating and give you more insight than most forums.
Some people have that ability. Your not born with it at an advanced level. Its developmental.
I do think though that people are born with the desire to obtain it though. For many people, the world is a problem that they hate. For others, it's a problem they want to solve.
When I’m buying a car I check service costs, insurance, price of tyres but never thought to check the cost of a battery! £160 as it turns out for an Exide one the same as OE spec
Sounds exactly like the one I replaced last year, TBF though the old one lasted over 9 years so I wasn't too unhappy. I was a little more cheesed off with having to lift the lump of a thing out of the cubbyhole in the boot rather than somewhere nice and easy like under the bonnet. And I don't think £160 is too out of line for a battery these days, a lot of newer cars use AGM and they're all that bit more expensive. Try the £50 I was quoted for a new sidelight bulb if you want a ripoff...
Much less repairing of parts with newer cars, just replacing.
Depends how you look at it.
A MAF sensor is probably cheaper than the rebuild kit for my carbs. The equivelent cost of paying someone to refurbish the carbs is in the £hundreds. It's simple economics that parts have become significantly cheaper than the labour to rebuilt them, particularly anything that doesnt get hot and can therefore simply be made by injection molding.
Yes, you can pay to have a metal manifold welded up if it cracks. But the one on our fiesta is made of plastic and would be quicker and cheaper even DIY to just get a new one.
Our fresh-from-uni new start is saving her pennies for an old beetle to mess about with, same as I was doing a decade ago when I first got a job!
I spent my relocation allowance to my first graduate job on this 🤣
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10157838813083555&id=511573554
I do think though that people are born with the desire to obtain it though. For many people, the world is a problem that they hate. For others, it’s a problem they want to solve.
Why do you think the world is a problem? Is it not possible that it just 'is'?
Having spent this afternoon in the snow trying to change anti roll bar bushes, I for one can fully understand why people don’t work on their own cars!!
So I agree and disagree with some of the above, as you would expect!
I have a 2011 Volvo V70 and a 2010 Volvo C30 as family cars, with a fair proportion of work done at home. What really saves me money and makes it feasible is a copy of Vida DICE - the Volvo dealer diagnostic and service software. Setting that up was a pain in the erse.
As for Volvo being easy to work on, my V70 is seeming built round its failing blower motor. Not good design. The straight 5 is long for a transversely mounted engine and with all the plumbing the engine bay is crowded and difficult to work on.
I do my own maintenance, unless in needs bigger tools/jacks. My car is all computerised, but it's 18 years old. Nissan build in ways to read codes by key turns or pedal presses, but I've got an ODBCII reader of amazon that reads codes to my phone.
My only issues have been electrical due to age, which is where a squirt of electrical contact cleaner has been fab. Air bag lights come on occasionally, disconnect the 'offending item', clean the contacts, plg in, and use Nissan's built in re-scan process - no need to go to dealer.
Anti-roll bar links, general servicing, etc I will do. I don't hae the kit for anything heavy, so my local garage have done an aircon pipe, rear shocks, new ABS rings (needs a bigger part).
My son is 19, and is his mate's 'mechanic' - his mate has a battered Focus (it's newer than my car) but keeps going wrong. He's usually replacing bits for his mate, then recently did the coil pack. Had to dremmel off two bolts as they were seized on. My son's car is a new shape Fabia Monte Carlo, but you can get into the sotware with the right software.
In some ways I can agree, it's easy to look fondly back at simpler times when you could have your engine out with a trolley jack and your gearbox changed before lunch. I like the idea of being self-sufficient and the whole old school mentality of motoring being something you're involved in, and not just some consumable product you bought. I truly believe there is a loss to your sense of self here, not just in this specific example, but generally that absence of interaction with your daily activities. The more we consume, the more we exist without purpose and the more confusing our lives become. That's a whole different topic though...
That said, I do all my own work and it's far from impossible - in some ways it's even easier, and you do have the benefit of driving something far more efficient and reliable than anything you ever drove in the 70s or 80s. Different times.
Why do you think the world is a problem? Is it not possible that it just ‘is’?
You've illustrated my point 🙂 We all see the world differently. Some people have a light on the dash, they book it into a garage. Others think 'hmm, what does this mean, what can I do to fix it?' I'm not trying to make a value judgement - for the money I save on garages I endlessly agonise over technical solutions and give myself loads of jobs to do - but it's innate, for me. I need to know. On the other hand, I do now know a lot about all sorts of things, and it gives me great pleasure.
Anyway - must get on with changing the engine mounts in my car. I think it might be related to the soft gear changes from the DSG box...
new ABS rings
Hmm yes. On my car, the ABS ring, the hub and the bearing are all one assembly. When the bearing goes it's just four bolts, off and on. Much better than all my previous cars where you needed bearing presses and whatnot which basically meant taking it in.
I love working on cars or motorbikes, but i don`t do it for a living , with access to a fully equiped workshop - 2 poster/ press/transmission jacks etc at my friends small garage its a pretty regular Saturday for me to go and work on mine or theirs (from projects to customer jobs)
Everything is done properly - researched etc not using a torque wrench on wheel nuts is a mortal sin for example, todays facilities - internet/youtube/parts online make things much easier than they were in the past.
I still do some consumable/maintenance items on my car which aren't covered by the service plan or which I want done more frequently (such as oil changes in between services) and on the last 2 cars also flushed/changed auto gear box fluid plus rear diff fluid. Working on modern cars isn't as daunting as it may first appear with youtube and user-guides on car forums being a God-send. Running higher mileage VAG models as my first 3 cars and not wanting to pay garages made me get good at mechanics and fixing cars fast (but likewise I don't miss laying under cars on the drive in freezing cold).
You’ve illustrated my point 🙂 We all see the world differently.
No, I really didn't illustrate your point. 'The world' is not people's attitudes to fixing cars. If you meant some people enjoy fixing stuff and others don't, why not just say that instead of conflating car maintenance with 'the world' to make it sound all existential and important? 🙂
It's an analogy, try not to take it so literally.
that instead of conflating car maintenance with ‘the world’ to make it sound all existential and important?
The point I was making is not specific to cars, I'd have thought that obvious. Cars are just one of the technical things we all deal with every day, from cars to computers to home appliances to DIY and even clothing. If there's a problem do you see yourself as someone who can try to solve it, or do you see it as something you cannot do and find some other person who can?
It's the difference between 'I don't know' and 'I don't know but I can find out'. People who think the latter seem to apply it to their whole lives at some level, so it's about much more than cars. Of course not everyone in the latter group fixes cars, but they will probably be fixing other things and solving problems.
I still do some consumable/maintenance items on my car which aren’t covered by the service plan
This may be a good point to ask the question I was thinking of asking STW. I have a Ford (Focus) with the 1.0L Ecoboost engine (and I'm aware of the degas hose and other coolant issues). Being a direct injection petrol engine, the inlet valves doesn't get 'washed' by drawing in fuel and can tend to accumulate carbon. At high mileages that can lead to the valves not sealing and loss of compression or worse. There's nothing in the official service schedules, but I guess Ford don't want to advertise the problem. It seems the options are to poke a brush in and try to remove the carbon (don't like that idea as loose lumps of carbon could do more damage) or to spray a proprietary cleaner (Seafoam is the US product, not sure what's available in UK) or a small amount of hot water into the inlet manifold (avoiding the MAF sensor). Has anyone done this, or knows whether it's a good idea? Better done sooner or wait until there's a problem?
@molgrips - I'm in the latter group but when it comes to cars it's a case of "I don't want to do it". Cars simply don't interest me. If I had to then I would - I've swapped out the front suspension of a car for example - I just choose not to.
Never heard of using water to clean valves, only cleaning I ever used water for was on the air side of a turbo, carbon needed walnut shells. That was on marine diesels but I see no reason why the carbon deposition would be different.
IMO the only way to effectively remove carbon is directly but that means stripping the head. Easily checked every so often with a compression test though then when you do start to lose the seal you can try out whatever method. I don't think water will do any harm so long as you're sensible but it will run like a bag of nails and throw error codes when it realises you have disconnected the induction to do so.
The only way carbon can build up on the inlets is from oil smoke getting sent through the EGR , so keeping the engine from burning oil is the key , and that is down to specific engine model risks - engines with poor reputation for piston ring problems would be at high risk of getting the problem.
So if the specific engine does not have an oil use risk what can you do ?
Use the correct oil and change it more frequently than long life schedules, minimise short trips to ensure everything warms up properly, and ensure the engine is given a proper exercise ie , near redline to spin the rings and keep everything from getting carbon deposits.
That would include varying the fuel brand and avoiding running on non additive or minimum additive fuel like supermarket fuel.
I'm sure I posted a response about an hour ago - although come to think of it the Forum logged me out just after I thought I'd hit submit, so maybe it was lost? Anyway:
@squirrelking - thank you. I hadn't heard of blasting with ground walnut shells before, had to Google that, sounds useful. I'm aware that spraying water will give me lots of rough running and error codes, and to be careful to to use too much water; I'm not rushing to try it.
@finishthat - thank you. I had read that oil can run down the valve stems also? The engine doesn't use any noticeable amount of oil, I've been changing it every 8-9k and the level has never appeared to drop between changes. I've been careful to get the right spec oil, no supermarket fuel, and it only does long runs (we have a Smart for short runs, to be replaced by an EV when it dies).
Yes , forgot about the valve stem oil seals, by changing the oil you are helping keep healthy and flexible , if they get gummed up and covered in treacly deposits due to overstretched oil changes then they don’t get conditioned by fresh oil - dry out wear and stop doing their job.
Any oil use in a direct injection petrol engine that is not a leak is bad news long term.
trail_rat
Thats a quote from me from the bike mechanic wages thread.
I’m also a degree qualified mechanical engineer. That gives me the theory and maths behind why things are the way they are. First and foremost in my work I apply the above. -be that to fix it , repair it or redesign it.
Its a mentality driven from working with my dad on cars, motorbikes , push bikes and house DIY.
Ah, yeah. Don't get me wrong. I'm not having a go at anyone who is into repairing cars - far from it. Growing up, my Dad wasn't really into car maintenance. He was a black cabbie, and his cab was leased/rented I think, so any service stuff & it used to go back to the place he leased it from.
The closest I got to fiddling with the cab was washing it, or spraying Holt's cold start stuff into the intake on icy, cold mornings.
Our normal cars were very rarely tinkered with at home.
But, from a young age I always had a fascination with how things went together & how they sometimes couldn't be put back together, as easily as they came apart. I was always being told off for 'fiddling' with stuff and relished taking things like radio controlled toys to bits.
My initial comment in response to the comment about tinkering with cars & where will the next batch of mechanical engineers come from was mainly born out of frustration with the general implication that mechanical engineers can only come from a background of taking apart a 40 year old car engine, or repairing brakes on a Ford Anglia. Again, I have nothing against mechanics, but just find it frustrating the public at large seem to only relate the two things in that way.
At school i worked part time in a Primark store stock-room (on Kilburn high street). Just before I was due to leave the job and start uni, the stock-room supervisor decided to leave. The manager called me into his office & tried to get me to take the job. When I explained repeatedly that I was starting uni in a few weeks to begin a degree in mechanical engineering, he kept referring to it as 'mending cars' and there's better career prospects staying here than 'mending cars and did I really need to go to 'college' to 'learn how to mend cars'. It didn't matter how many times I explained it, he couldn't get past the idea that 'mechanical engineer' meant someone who fixed cars.
I've also had similar situations more times than I care to remember when you get chatting to someone on a night out; friend of a friend, or whatever and you do the general small talk thing. I grimace inwardly when people ask what I do - mechanical engineer - you either get a glazed look & a distant 'oh' (meaning, I have no idea what that means) or you get the other response of 'ah, brilliant, I've got a xyz car & it's making a grinding noise from the thingy - what might that be?'
About a year ago I went to see an osteopath about an old knee injury. I'd tried various other avenues & this was just me trying something new.
Blokie gets me on the couch and starts pulling me around, asks what I do. "Ah, I'm a mechanical engineer......" cue the predictable response of 'oh, well that won't help things. Working in a cold garage, crawling around under cars all day & lifting heavy objects.....' GAH! Erm, actually I work in an air-conditioned office swearing at Pro/E for quite a lot of my day, or I'm in the R&D lab tinkering with new parts, or speaking to suppliers about new material grades or manufacturing techniques.....oh, right.....vacant stare into the distance.....
And just before Christmas I went to see a musculo-skeletal specialist at my GP surgery as my shoulder weirdly froze. She asked what I did as a day job & this time I responded 'mechanical design engineer' which is my actual job title. She started responding along the usual lines of fixing cars, but actually did manage to stop herself (I think her brain registered the 'design' bit) and she asked 'so what it is you actually do?'....
Anyway - slewed this massively off topic & going to bed now.
Truth be told I'd love to get a car (Fiat Coupe?), strip it down, clean it all up & re-build it. But I don't have the money, time or space to do that. I have to satisfy myself with tinkering with the bikes & dicking around with my 3-D printer. 🙂
It's like being in IT and then someone asks you what laptop they should buy. Honestly, I have no idea. I can however talk to you in depth about how your bank should design its payment processing systems but you may not be so interested in that.
The point I was making is not specific to cars, I’d have thought that obvious. Cars are just one of the technical things we all deal with every day, from cars to computers to home appliances to DIY and even clothing. If there’s a problem do you see yourself as someone who can try to solve it, or do you see it as something you cannot do and find some other person who can?
There are two types of people, those who divide the world into two types of people and those who don't.
More seriously, in reality there's likely a wide continuum between those who can't wire a plug or open a yoghurt without professional help at one end of the scale, and maintenance super-stars like yourself who can't resist fixing super-computers with no more than an old matchbox, a paper-clip and some marshmallows at the other.
Anyway, arguably more interesting is the growing resistance to built-in obsolescence - hello Apple! - and the increase in repair cafe initiatives and the like where folk who like fixing things can help those who'd like to fix them themselves, but can't.
The latest Reasons To Be Cheerful podcast focuses on just this and is a really interesting listen:
https://www.cheerfulpodcast.com
Romantic vs classical thinkers on a spectrum for sure.
I think it's a generational thing with regard to expectations. My Dad was the least DIY-keen guy I ever met, but he could spanner a bit with cars cos, as TINAS said, in the olden days you had to own and know how to use feeler gauges if you wanted to keep a car running. Move down a generation and cars "just work" most of the time so car ownership doesn't come with the expectation that you'll get oily.
For my generation, I think I've seen the same thing happen with computers. 25 years ago you needed to know a bit about how the things worked in order to get them to do what you wanted. At a minimum you needed to know enough DOS commands to launch Windows and park the hard disk. Buying a new printer meant setting aside half a day to set it up - installing drivers from disks, dealing with conflicts with other hardware, finding a biro to change dipswitch settings. I tried explaining this to my kids when we bought a printer not long ago and they were shocked. To them, setting a new printer up involves plugging it in and entering the WiFi password - job done.
Just like computers have gone from an "enthusiast" hobby for the geeks to a plug-and-play appliance, cars have gone from a machine you expect to maintain to a device you use, and pay a garage to maintain.
While I don't think that really matters per se, I do worry that along the way car users have become divorced from the machines that they pilot to the extent that it may become dangerous. Now that people don't own a set of grubby car maintenance clothes, not only are they not tuning carbs or setting points, they're also not out there checking the oil, the tyre pressures, even the lightbulbs. It's getting to the point now where people will phone the breakdown service for a flat tyre rather than consider jacking the car up and changing a wheel.
It’s getting to the point now where people will phone the breakdown service for a flat tyre rather than consider jacking the car up and changing a wheel.
It's getting to the point where people earnestly believe that any car more than two years old is inherently 'unreliable' and must be swapped for a brand new one. Flat tyre? Your car is too old to keep, flog it and buy a new one. We've embraced an accelerated lifecycle when it comes to consumer goods of all kinds - cars, mobile phones, TVs, washing machines, bikes - they all just get swapped for newer models more and more often. Our whole system is based on the need to keep consuming stuff.
The inability to fix things and the tendency of manufacturers to make things more and more difficult to fix is right at the heart of this. Planned obsolescence is a business strategy / norm and one of the main reasons the planet is currently eating itself (okay, we're eating it, but you know, semantics...)
Hadn’t worked on my own car for years until this one - but then it is a Jaaaag!😀 In truth once you get past all the plastic crap most of the bits underneath are the same as they ever were!