[Closed] Pritti Vacant and the civil service

Love that he's turned down the NDA. Nuclear option.

She’ll survive because the government dgas, they don’t engage with the media, boris is awol, dom spins and plots like mad and they have a large majority. Our glorious leader Dom hates the civil service so this all good for him. They will just wait it out and continue being turds and tractor output will increase year on year

The really surprising thing about what he said is that none of it is at all surprising.

She is an utterly awful woman but that doesn't seem to matter any more.

IMO the EU above and the civil service "below" are the things that would curb the daftest excesses of a UK government. Going to be an interesting year if all we've got left is the lords.

I expect the " Patel has my fullest confidence" statement from Johnson soon - which as we all know is the last thing heard before the resignation / sacking

I do not see how she can survive this - simply because given the forthcoming court action it will keep her in the headlines for all the wrong reasons

Utterly vile woman

I'm sure this kind of stuff should bring down a government but in the new Britain this is just day to day noise.
It should at least end Patel's career. Surely this coupled with her previous sacking should do for her? Perhaps we could deport her somewhere 🙂 I'm sure she'd like that.

Wasn’t she “forced to step down” over the Israel issue a couple of years back. Wasn’t Boris sacked ? This lot really don’t give a ****. I guess it will all be down to what Dom wants to do anyway. I don’t think you’ll wipe that smug look off her face anytime soon

As said above, their majority means they can do as they please.

Someone at the BBC is having a laugh- there’s a fictional 1980s radio series on 4extra about intrigue, plotting and inter department plotting in Whitehall currently broadcast!

Ever seen the TV series 'V'? The aliens (lizards in disguise) remove the intelligent people first.

Not much different here. The civil service is the effective opposition, remember Yes Minister and Yes Prime Minisiter?, and it's Cummings' stated aim to shake up/destroy it. Remove those at or near the top who have the knowledge and the clout to argue against ministers doing stupid things and you gain ever more power.

it will keep her in the headlines for all the wrong reasons

And while she’s generating the headlines, what news will be pushed out of the way? So she’s serving a purpose.

Could be a Machiavellian plan or just complete incompetence.

It should at least end Patel’s career. Surely this coupled with her previous sacking should do for her?

It'll just be another temporary hiatus. You'd expect conniving to divert aid funds to the Israeli military would have disqualified her from parliament, let alone a senior Cabinet post and yet here she is. Even if she resigns she'll be back in a couple of years just as Liam Fox et al managed. It does occur to me that if I were one of the couple of hundred Tory MPs who've never had a sniff of ministerial office I'd be a bit ticked off that the same bunch of proven shysters and conmen somehow keep being recycled into Cabinet posts.

To some of gammons/boomers/60+ who are very comfortably off (bought 3 bed semi council house under Thatcher) Johnson can do no wrong. I do a regular spin class and their hatred for Europe and socialism is palatable, and they see this time as the best of times.

The government has a large majority and many tame media outlets who are acting like cheerleaders rather than journalists. They can do what they like .

Union response:

https://twitter.com/fdagensec/status/1233697091651764226?s=21

Hmm, I take the alternative view in that the Government are trying to change things for the better, and being held back by the Civil Servants, of which many of them do not like any change.
The idiots at the DfT have been running the railways abysmally for the last 10 years. The Rail Minister gets called to account for the varying failings, when it is the CS who carry out the work, and are supposed to know what they are doing, which in many cases they are just blagging their way along, and getting away with it.
I'm glad they are now being held to account.

I’m glad they are now being held to account.

How are they being held to account?

If you mean individuals being pushed out by ministers and their spads, where is the accountability?

I’m interested to hear you experience of civil services failures, especially where not attributable to the policy choices and administration skills of ministers and spads.

Hmm, I take the alternative view in that the Government are trying to change things for the better

This requires expansion.

Even by Tory standards, she is an abysmal human being.

As a civil servant, some of Cummings comments were spot on - too many higher up get moved from project to department to project, have no idea what the department should be delivering or how, cock it up, then move on without any accountability. And the civil servants main block is ill thought out legislation from parliament.

But this isn't about the civil service blocking government policy. This is about a civil servant being treated like shit to the point that he's chosen to quit rather than take a pay off.

As someone who has spent 12 years implementing ill thought out legislation - from both parties - where consequences they were warned about have made our job stupidly hard, and life very difficult for some people affected has been awful, I'd love to see more of this

Good. Drain the swap.
Cannot change then go coz that is the purpose of "restructuring".
He should have a handsome retirement after 33 years in his job but being silly he turns down the govt offer but instead want to claim wrongful dismissal whatever.
If I were him I would grab the money and retire to a sunny England somewhere and let others get on with their lives.

You didn't read about the NDA then?

Please don't feed the troll.

"Rutnam was paid a salary of between £170,000 and £174,999, making him one of the 328 most highly paid people in the British public sector at that time." [source: Wikipedia]

Crikey, with that salary he should have taken the money and run.

You didn’t read about the NDA then?

As for NDA, one of my colleague received a pay off with NDA few years back (quite a good lump sum I suspect otherwise he would shout) and he simply moved on. We asked him but he wouldn't disclose anything due to NDA.

So if you're well paid it's alright to be bullied? That's what your salary buys from you is it?

If he's being bullied then you can bet that people lower down will also be being bullied. People who have less money put aside, and less profile to be able to expose it. Sure, he could have taken a big payment and signed an NDA and left his former (more junior) colleagues to deal with it.

Thank goodness there are still people with a sense of right and wrong and a spine.

So if you’re well paid it’s alright to be bullied? That’s what your salary buys from you is it?

He needs to clarify how he is bullied. Being shouted at or not willing to change (change in the sense that govt wants to do things differently and he disagrees)?

If you were paid handsomely would you take the heat? Let's say being shouted at?

(slight hijack. I was involved in an organisational restructuring many years ago for a large insurance company in the far east. Being a junior clerk I was asked to collect some documents from another departmental head. So I went over to collect the document only for the boss to shout at me (you can hear it very clearly in the entire office) in front of nearly 100 employees in the office (open space office). I kept my cool by just standing there listening to him letting off his steam. Being in the far east I respected his seniority as he is an "old" man, luckily he caught me in my good mood as I didn't have money in those days so let him be. Besides, I knew he was not truly shouting at me but the system. Otherwise, I would swear the hell out of him for his incompetence.)

Which he will do at the tribunal, not via the media (I hope)

Which he will do at the tribunal, not via the media (I hope)

Yes, I would like to read his NDA considering the fact that my colleague wouldn't let us see it.

Oh ya ... if you pay me a large lump sum with good pension you can shout at me all day long if you wish. I got shouted at for less than £400 a month salary as a junior clerk and I was not even in that department. 🤣

If you were paid handsomely would you take the heat? Let’s say being shouted at?

No. Out of principle. Yes, there is pressure and even stress at times from those positions, but bullying is never OK.

I worked for someone like that once. It drove me to being very close to suicide; more than once on the way home from work I thought 'one big step off this platform and all problems are over'.

Just because it happens doesn't make it normal, or OK, no matter what the 'reward'. People like you make it seem so, but on this you are absolutely wrong.

change in the sense that govt wants to do things differently and he disagrees

Of course different governments want to do things differently, thats fine and the CS expects that but, whilst i would expect them to do what is requested of them by ministers, the CS has to work to the confines of the existing law: ministers can't just steam in demanding change when existing legislation prevents that and therefore they need to take the longer approach of changing the law. You cant, for example, just hire a charter flight to Jamaica and demand it is filled with Jamaican foreign national offenders regardless of whether they have exhausted their legal appeals no matter how much you yell.

No. Out of principle. Yes, there is pressure and even stress at times from those positions, but bullying is never OK.

I don't and wouldn't take it personally put it this way. I am weird.

I worked for someone like that once. It drove me to being very close to suicide; more than once on the way home from work I thought ‘one big step off this platform and all problems are over’.

Why? Why let the person put you in that situation?

In the far east if we were put under such pressure we would by all means put that person in his/her shoes (provided we know we are actually right). i.e. I don't advocate this in the UK but in the far east we would deck the person. Yes, that is what we would do (slightly uncivilised) and give the person a proper beating. Life is too short to be put in those situation. Rationality does not work in those situation. Yes, we would get arrested or whatever for assault but no big deal other than a silly punch up in the heat of the moment. End off.

Just because it happens doesn’t make it normal, or OK, no matter what the ‘reward’. People like you make it seem so, but on this you are absolutely wrong.

No, it does not make it right but then if you have all the securities (pay, house etc) why bother to deal with incompetency? Why not just move on by grabbing as much as you can after all you have done enough of the good things and everyone will remember you for that?

I think the interesting point here is that although he will still get a pension ( as far as I am aware )for his civil service years he was not prepared to take an extra pay off to keep quiet .... so something must have been seriously wrong ( at least in his view ) and also he can speak up in defence of now ex colleagues who may not be financially able to complain for them selves

It can't really be a surprise to anyone.

A vile woman who is elected by vile people to push vile policies turns out to be, well, vile.

QED, really.

But she is Brexity so she will stay.

Oh, and please, please, please do not feed the troll.

If you can't resist then get the killfile.

Just the fact he was offered a payoff subject to a NDA.. Makes me think there's something rotten going on.

NDA's should only really be used to protect someone leaving a business and using what they know to ill gain. Such as sharing strategy or IP to a competitor.

It has no place in government, which should always be transparent. And it shouldn't be used to prevent grievances or tribunal against an employer. That's abuse of process and or abuse of power (bullying).

I got shouted at for less than £400 a month salary as a junior clerk and I was not even in that department.

This, I feel, explains a lot.

I think the interesting point here is that although he will still get a pension ( as far as I am aware )for his civil service years he was not prepared to take an extra pay off to keep quiet ….

He can afford to object with those income. He is safe financially. He has the security.

so something must have been seriously wrong ( at least in his view ) and also he can speak up in defence of now ex colleagues who may not be financially able to complain for them selves

Ego and ideology. He now wants to be seen as the champion.
His ex colleagues are not complaining because they either cannot afford to or simply just want to move on (probably paid handsomely too).

This, I feel, explains a lot.

When you are paid less than £400 a month you try to hang on to that for survival so you take whatever is thrown at you. You do not have the luxury to complain as the alternative is worst. (country was facing financial melt down in those days and unemployment was seriously high). (oh ya ... I remember having £10 left for the entire month and had to borrow to survive for few months in those days)

Just the fact he was offered a payoff subject to a NDA.. Makes me think there’s something rotten going on.

Not necessarily. Based on my experience with my colleague's situation, he was kind of "lazy" (we knew that but since we are all friends we support him ... bias of course and unity all that as we are all friends) but received good salary but did not actually deliver so when they "fired" him, he made a big fuss about it and got a NDA with some good compensation. He moved on. We were all encouraging him to fight (milk) the system as much as he could in case he needed the cash before finding another job. Well, he got employed after 6 months doing the same thing in another company ... while we continued to slave our lives away.

I think this will go down well with a certain mindset.

When you are paid less than £400 a month you try to hang on to that for survival so you take whatever is thrown at you.

And that makes it ok how?

Anyhoo that is me feeding the troll, so no more.

I do hope Patel got a sinking feeling when he told them to shove the NDA. I can see a little sneak like Patel thinking she can just buy people's silence, so hopefully she felt the same dread feeling that most of her staff probably feel going into work every day.

Rutnam is experienced enough, I reckon he'll have evidence with dates and times and that Little Miss Smirk will not enjoy having that dirty linen aired in public.

And that makes it ok how?

I have two choices in those days.
I could either:
1. Take the shouting whatever and survive until I figure another plan.
or
2. Be a "highway man".
The latter has no guarantee of survival as our police are rather trigger happy.
I chose the former because I needed the money and have a skin as thick as Borneo Rhino.

Anyhoo that is me feeding the troll, so no more.

I am not making up story to impress you folks but that is my personal experience ...

Based on my experience with my colleague’s situation, he was kind of “lazy” (we knew that but since we are all friends we support him

You don't need an NDA to fire someone who's not doing their job.

I'm not going to feed that argument any longer.

Please everyone DON'T get drawn in by the obvious troll - just ignore and hopefully he'll go away.

This was a good thread until now.

I’m not going to feed that argument any longer.

Agreed.

The current government were voted in to "get Brexit done". Of those people I know who voted for them they never previously discussed politics and haven't since the election. They are just not interested.

I think this will is being reflected in how they are behaving. We had Javid's speech in parliament after the reshuffle. We have Boris who's gone AWOL despite severe flooding and a likely Pandemic in the offing. They simply don't care. I think we are as likely to get the report into interference in the election as we are to see Patel go.

Initially Rutnam appears to have done the honourable thing and shown leadership. Rather than take the hush money he's put himself on the line to tackle a bully and unpleasant situation. I bet the NDA was a 7 figure sum. On top of a decent wage and good pension he could have happily walked away to a very nice retirement.

hopefully she felt the same dread feeling that most of her staff probably feel going into work every day

Don't believe it for a minute, these people are quite devoid of self-reflection, it's the only way they can live with themselves.

Rutnam is experienced enough, I reckon he’ll have evidence with dates and times

I'd certainly hope so, a Permanent (?) Secretary should be nothing if not up on the admin.