This thread is STW at its best. 7 pages of nonsense but I just can't help having a peep now and again 😆
I shall attempt some constructive contribution though. I have worked away from home for many years, often only 2 or 3 nights away at a time, but usually in places where it is impractical to bring my own lunch from home. In those circumstances it is perfectly reasonable to expect work to pay reasonable expenses to cover lunch. Whether the expense policy does or not is another matter and frankly the issue of how much I have spent on providing breakfast and dinner at home versus claiming on expenses should be irrelevant. In true STW fashion it has become one of the stickier parts of this pointless debate.
Keep it up team 😉
wwaswas - Member
I may have missed this but are these London offices a client site or just the OP's company at a different location?
From the IR:
[i]Benchmark system/rules
Under the benchmark system, HMRC has set advisory scale rates for particular day subsistence expenses that it will accept for all employers. As long as the employee has incurred subsistence expenses while travelling on an allowable business journey, employers will be able to make tax and NICs free subsistence payments up to the advisory rates without agreeing them with HMRC. Employers wishing to use the benchmark scale rates for subsistence payments will simply need to notify HMRC of their intention by ticking the appropriate statement/box on form P11DX before starting to use the system. The rates that can be used will be:
Breakfast rate (irregular early starters only) - A rate of up to £5.00 may be paid where a worker leaves home earlier than usual and before 6.00 am and incurs a cost on breakfast taken away from his home. If the employee regularly leaves home before 6.00 am because, for example, he works an early shift he would not be entitled to use the breakfast benchmark scale rate.
One meal rate (Five hour rate) - A rate of up to £5.00 may be paid where the worker has been away from his home/normal place of work for a period of at least five hours and has incurred a cost on a meal.
Two meal rate (Ten hour rate) - A rate of up to £10.00 may be paid where the worker has been away from his home/normal place of work for a period of at least ten hours and has incurred a cost on a meal or meals.
Late evening meal rate (irregular late finishers only) - A rate of up to £15.00 may be paid where the employee has to work later than usual, finishes work after 8.00 pm having worked his normal day and has to buy a meal which he would usually have at home.
If the employee is paid an allowance under the five or ten hour rule, the late meal allowance could still be paid if he finishes work after 8.00 pm and buys a meal that he would usually have at home. However, if the employee regularly finishes work late because, for example, he normally works the afternoon or evening shift, he would not be entitled to use the late evening meal rate.
Particular issues and exemptions
Payments in excess of the benchmark rates
The benchmark rates are the maximum tax and NICs free amounts that could be paid by employers who choose to use this system. An employer could pay less than this rate if it wants to do so. If a higher amount is paid without agreeing a tailored scale rate with HMRC, the excess should be subject to tax and NICs.
Qualifying conditions
Benchmark scale rates must only be used where all the qualifying conditions are met. The qualifying conditions are:
• the travel must be in the performance of an employee’s duties or to a temporary place of work
• the employee should be absent from his normal place of work or home for a continuous period in excess of five hours or ten hours
• the employee should have incurred a cost on a meal (food and drink) after starting the journey
Early starter and late finisher rates
The early starter and late finisher rates are for use in exceptional circumstances only and not intended for employees with regular early or late work patterns.
Tax and NICs free scale rate payments must be limited to three meal rates in one day (or 24 hour period). A meal is defined as a combination of food and drink.
Where employees are required to start early or finish late on a regular basis, the over five hours or over ten hours rates could be paid provided all the other qualifying rules are satisfied.[/i]
Show this to your employer Molgrips, and meet in the middle by buying a lunch less than £5.
Job done.
A rate of £5/£10 [b]may be paid[/b]
Not [b]must[/b] be paid.
that is a big difference.
irregular early starters only
All the mentions of irregular in there imply that if it's as part of your normal work routine, such as on a 3 month placement?) you wouldn't be entitled to the possibility of tax-efficient expenses?
Not [b]must[/b] be paid.
Indeed. For any expenses not paid, you can claim back the tax you paid on the salary used to buy it.
and frankly the issue of how much I have spent on providing breakfast and dinner at home versus claiming on expenses should be irrelevant. In true STW fashion it has become one of the stickier parts of this pointless debate.
And it probably wouldn't have become such a big part of the debate, if the OP hadn't made out like he was enduring some sort of great expense because of it.......
Well no. I'm a home-based worker, so they should pick up the tab when I'm sent away. This is normal, and they do it - except for this one quirk. Which, as previously mentioned, costs a non-trivial amount of money.
The "non trivial amount of money" has ranged from £130/month to £8/week (by his own estimations)
If it's so "none trivial" then possibly knowing what it was, to the nearest £100, would be a start.
I'm a home-based worker
Work paying for your home broadband too?
Meanwhile, somewhere in Leeds, the cheesecake has gone 🙁
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Healthy today bearnecesities.
I dunno how that HMRC stuff applies when you're in a hotel. We get more than that for hotel meals.
I am at a client site by the way, not my own company. The client are paying the expenses for the project.
But the point is not about the cost of lunch, it's the canteen thing. The company thinks lunch is an acceptable business expense, which is why they (and the client) reimburse it, but it's not clear why this does not happen when there is a canteen. The canteen is presumably subsidised, so the client is paying some of the lunch cost, but why not the rest?
Work paying for your home broadband too?
No. I may be able to claim something back for that but I won't because I would have broadband anyway so it's not really a cost of working.
Are you an employee or contractor?
Don't say temporary employee
So what's for molgrips lunch today?
Thinly sliced cold shoulder served with a salad of egg on face, hard cheese, sour grapes, with a schadenfreude dressing and a choice of raspberry fool or Eton Mess for pudd, and a nice can of bitter lemon.
Not really. Half of last night's cheesefest for lunch 😀
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Should I be slightly concerned Molgrips gave me some excellent and so far working dietary advice, but then pigs out in Pret himself?
Do as I do etc 😉 😉
aP - Member
So what's for molgrips lunch today?
Thinly sliced cold shoulder served with a salad of egg on face, hard cheese, sour grapes, with a schadenfreude dressing and a choice of raspberry fool or Eton Mess for pudd, and a nice can of bitter lemon.
Excuse me while I wipe my keyboard.... 😀
*eats whole meal pitta and houmous for lunch*
*claims £5*
Let's take a flyer and google:
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=claiming+lunch+on-site+canteens
The first result is:
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/eimanual/eim21673.htm which leads to http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/eimanual/EIM21671.htm
You would probably need a tax person tell you if the problem is tax relief on tax relief, but as you have special powers you can probably figure it out yourself.
And more:
http://www.contractorinfo.co.uk/index.php?q=node/209
Job related living expenses if you are working outside reasonable commuting distance. You cannot claim for lunch if you are working at an office/site with a canteen
Either way - they are not out to ruin your life specifically. There is a reason.
Molls - could you not just do a Partidge and stock up in the morning. You need one of these ...
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But his entire life is ruined as nobody cares about his bloody lunch !!!! (But I love to post on this thread as molgrips threads are priceless)
[i]but I won't because I would have [s]broadband[/s] [b]lunch[/b] anyway so it's not really a cost of working. [/I]
There, the prosecution rests, M'Lud.
😉
lol and true to STW-endless-thread form, point is missed completely.
Shall we go round again? 😆
Molgrips, you must get some satisfaction from creating these monsters. In 100 years time people will look back at these threads in awe, with sociologists and anthropologists butting heads on how so many people could engage in so fruitless an activity.
2 things from a recent work trip to LA
Thing 1. We were asked if we would fly out a day early (a Saturday) which would save the company almost £500 a head on flights by spanning a Saturday night. However, we were then told work wouldn't pay the £60 hotel for said Saturday night as it was over a weekend and deemed to be our own time, as per company policy. I flew out on the Sunday.
Thing 2. Sat in a bar a colleague orders another round of beers - not a work event, we weren't 'team building', no clients there etc. He asks for the receipt and I question whether he plans to to expense them - our umpteenth round. He was genuinely angry when I suggested it was unlikely work would subsidise our drinking for the week.
Thank the lord we didn't have the lunch dilemma (taken out to nice restaurants every day) although I did wonder if I could expense my rather expensive daily mocha frappacinos 😉
What I've seen is that some people take the piss with expenses and some people don't. If you're one of the latter it will certainly grate when you have to buy your own sandwich whilst someone else puts a £50 bottle of wine and a fancy meal on expenses
I've not read every post but it's clear to me that those who think expenses are some sort of perk clearly do no dot travel much for work. I travelled quite a bit in my last 2 jobs and was often out of pocket and had to argue that standard expenses amounts were not suitable for some countries - Russia, Japan, Scandinavia etc.
I suppose if you always pay for food and lunchtime then Molly's post may seam unreasonable but I prefer not to waste my money on unhealthy food and make my own lunches or simply make an extra evening meal potion for the next day. I can't do that whilst away so why should I be out of pocket? It really adds up if you're away for extended periods.
From my experience those who take the piss on expenses are usually senior management.
No. You haven't read every post have you.
[i]but it's clear to me that those who think expenses are some sort of perk clearly do no dot travel much for work[/i]
Well, I've worked on the road for almost 20 yrs, never got a free lunch or expenses. The world has gone soft, its full of big jessies. Its not even that one has to understand the rules.
If an employer decides to buy breaky and dindins, but not lunch. So what ? get another job.
🙂
No Molly today,
Probably sacked for asking for lunch in a cruel Oliver Twist type storyline.
@cheers_drive - keep up before posting eh?
He's in HR, explaining his recent claim for a pig-out at Pret a Manger...
Solo - If by saying on the road you mean starting and finishing the day from home then I wouldn't expect my meals to be expensed either.
No Molly today
I've moved on from this thread, that's why!
What I've seen is that some people take the piss with expenses and some people don't. If you're one of the latter it will certainly grate when you have to buy your own sandwich whilst someone else puts a £50 bottle of wine and a fancy meal on expenses
£115 plus £35 on cocktails was my record 
Wish I had the stones to have submitted the reciept.
Double post
I've moved on from this thread, that's why!
Just reading it and rubbing your thighs ?
And
Couldn't....
Resist....
Posting !
(That's not how to move on from a thread by the way)
Thought I'd share: Just had a meeting in that there London, lunch for 3 plus 2 bottles of very nice red in a restaurant just off Leicester Sq and the bill came to a smidge over £300.
😯
Thankfully someone else has to get that one past their accounts dept.
We don't have a policy, our staff are treated as grown ups and expected to behave as such. Never had a single incident that required a 'word'.
Now Molly, rogerthecat is someone who had a meeting with some nice people who allow for this kind of thing. Good for you roger.
Molegrips did not ask if lunch was included in his contract and as such is slightly annoyed.Poor Molly.
I say we do a sponsored walk to feed his waif like body even though he's had an all paid for had a full english breakfast and will be in Nandos later.
Our kid, who's a director of a media agency in the Smoke, tells a story of taking 2 senior representatives of a certain Swedish furniture store out for lunch at one of London's finer eateries. They well and truly filled their boots, and spent the afternoon going through the wine list, swilling bottles of vintage chateauneuf du pape. The final lunch bill: a grand and a half! Which she had to put on her expense account. 😯
I miss those days. Blue chip clients and huge expense accounts in marketing.
Damn. Now I have get receipts if I byy a pack of A4 for the printer.
Happy days eddiebaby, happy days and I suspect they are long gone.
I'm posting, but I'm not in any of the arguments any more 🙂
I should thank the people who responded with actual useful info about HMRC and expenses though, ta.
hi moly. did you say you were a contractor or employee? I missed your answer
Not necessarily roger. One of the reps from the company I just left recently put in a grand bar bill (mainly for vodka) after taking 8 of the Russian offices staff out for the evening. That bill was for pre-dinner in the hotel bar, while they were just warming up.
But the Russian lot bring in a lot of business, so the same principles as old apply. Just not in this country any more. Unless you work in banking, I suppose. Where the gravy train has remained in full steam. Bless 'em.
[i]Solo - If by saying on the road you mean starting and finishing the day from home then I wouldn't expect my meals to be expensed either.[/i]
I mean 3am depart, Monday. 9pm return, [b]Friday[/b]. Or.... Even being away the weekend too, sometimes. What some folk do for a buck, eh ?
[i]I mean 3am depart, Monday. 9pm return, Friday. Or.... Even being away the weekend too, sometimes. What some folk do for a buck, eh ? [/i]
Where have you been living then, as expenses are something that have existed pretty much for ever (well +25 yrs for myself) - or are you paid so much, it doesn't matter?
[i]Where have you been living then[/i]
Travelodge or independent BnB's. Both have their [i]attractions[/i], I've stayed in some very dire Travelodges and some very ropey BnB's 😯 The theme being very cheap diggs.
[i]or are you paid so much, it doesn't matter?[/i]
😆
That's the best one so far, this morning.
irelanst - MemberIMO I don’t think there is a discrepancy in your companies policy.
To justify lunch as an expense it would have to be necessary due to being located away from your normal workplace to pay in excess of what is considered 'normal'. It is perfectly reasonable for them to assume that if a temporary workplace has a canteen then you would use it and therefore the amount you would pay is a ‘normal’ amount*, if you chose not to then that is entirely your choice and not a result of the travel. If the temporary workplace does not have a canteen then you have no choice but to buy lunch elsewhere which is likely to be more expensive, and in these circumstances they have agreed to reimburse you.
The fact that you make a sandwich on a normal day is neither here nor there; you still have that option available.
* I've had this discussion during a HMRC audit when contracting at a company that had a works canteen. I didn't use it and bought sandwiches which I claimed for and apparently wasn't entitled to.
This is the most sensible post on this entire thread.
As for people checking out their entitlement to lunch expenses when taking a job, as an employer I would give them the information and then probably not offer them the role.
To add a little balance, our business lunch today was at a MacDonald's in Sheffield and topped out at £8.64 for 2 of us.
I went for a team lunch in Ask in Brum, had to pay for my own. Gutted.