[Closed] Women's tennis.... A bit meh?

@mefty how and when did they de-tune men's wimbledon to make it slower ?

They changed the grass in 2001 to perennial rye which doesn't wear as much so the bounce is truer and higher, in 2002 I believe they brought in new balls. Some suggest they are slightly bigger than those used elsewhere.

EDIT: Although on the Wimbledon site they say that the ball hasn't been changed since 1995 when they changed the pressure.

they can turn their phones off when the inspectors come knocking as much as they want

I wonder if we'll ever find out what all was in Fuentes' fridge?

Jimjam copied and pasted, just sayin'...

It's like the megaavalanche

giantalkali - Member

Jimjam copied and pasted, just sayin'...

http://www.skeptic.com/downloads/conceptual-penis/23311886.2017.1330439.pdf

How dare you 😈 I copied and pasted one sentence. Are we supposed to just ignore the conceptual penis as a social construct when discussing non existent sexual dimorphism?

It's because of latent sexist attitudes in society that see women's sport as inferior.

I too think this is rubbish - girls as a whole just do not seem as driven as men to partake in sports - if they did there would be more competition and more strength in depth and therefore better competition.

That has been the problem with Wimbledon, not enough strength in depth.

Another issue might be camera angles - if you go and watch a ladies match live at Wimbledon, particularly close up on an outside court, the game is much more entertaining and you see the impressive levels of skill and effort the ladies have to put in. TV coverage loses quite a lot although the French Open coverge seems better.

I do think best of 3 sets is a bit short, but best of 5 might be a bit long considering the amount of effort the ladies have to put in - maybe the 3 sets should be longer?

Instead of sport, perhaps they should stick to more traditional female jobs......like time travelling.

Yeah or prime ministeering. Though that may be a poor example of female success.

I too think this is rubbish - girls as a whole just do not seem as driven as men to partake in sports

And why is that? Don't you think that might have something to do with society?

You should have a chat with my mum about this. As a former PE teacher she's seen countless driven talented girls just drift away from sport - largely because women's sport doesn't have the prestige and respect that men's sport does.

but they simply aren't as good as the men

Why? Don't you think that and this:

They don't have to struggle to compete in high quality competitions, my daughter has competed at international level in 2 different sports in the last few weeks and her best friend has competed in another 2, boys in her peer group have a much more competitive pool to beat to get anywhere close to that level.

.. might be because fewer women are doing sport? And that that in turn might be because of my point above - because it's not seen as a desirable respectable worthy thing to be doing?

She's young enough to be able to compete with her male peers (they're YR6) which is why I had a group of them chasing me around the parkrun on Saturday with the aim of being the first one in their class to go <20 (2 girls and 2 boys did it out of the 7 FWIW) but ultimately she knows that even if she gets to Olympic standard for her chosen sport that 'average' men will beat her. It doesn't make her achievements less worthy, but I can fully understand why people wouldn't want to watch her.

Why is it less spectacular in a 5000m race when the times are slightly slower? Can you not have a tense close exciting race? I do not think the argument that women are slower therefore less exciting holds up when you look at paralympic sport.

And why is that? Don't you think that might have something to do with society?

I do not - don't remember any stigmatism associated with the women in the tennis clubs I have been in, but I also don't remember that many staying out on the courts for hours and hours of grinding practise, prefering to just partake in the social tennis.

There were obviously a few girls playing at a high standard and having intense practise sessions but not as many as the guys. But I couldn't see any social reason why they would not be.

I read something a while ago about women being less driven to exercise, but they would seem to benefit more from it :

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4933535/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/9197589/Women-exercise-half-as-much-as-men.html

I do not - don't remember any stigmatism associated with the women in the tennis clubs I have been in

What about football and rugby clubs?

But I couldn't see any social reason why they would not be.

It's not about the clubs. It's about society as a whole. This thread for example is quite heavily criticising women for being crap at sport and the results being rubbish to watch. Not exactly inspiring is it?

Why is it less spectacular in a 5000m race when the times are slightly slower? Can you not have a tense close exciting race?

This ^

I understand that there are some sports where raw power and speed, etc., are what make it exciting to watch at the pinnacle. Fast bowlers at 90+ mph being slapped into the second tier of the stand, etc.

But most of the time you want to watch close competition. Was Jo Konta's win against Simona Halep better or worse to watch than Federer dismantling Cilic? Was Jessica Ennis's Olympic Gold a bit 'meh' because she can 'only' high jump enough to compete against club standard men? Pile of bollocks.

If it was only about the very best, no-one would watch sport beyond the very top level. Champions League, World Cups, etc. But I've seen some brilliantly exciting and entertaining games at non-league level, and rarely did I think they would be better if Ronaldo was playing - he'd have ruined it by being too good!

(I've seen some shit too - as a Reading fan of 40 years that's to be expected)

What about football and rugby clubs?

maybe they don't like the, perhaps perceived, levels of aggresion and physical contact.

Maybe they just don't like the games.

How many young girls do you ever see down the park kicking or throwing a ball about, compared to the boys. The only stigma they would be getting at that point of their lives would probably be from their parents.

Same at the cycling clubs (not that I have a lot of experience). How many of the ladies like going out and grinding around the hills for the acheivement, feelign a sense of pride from the amount of dried salt strains on their helmets straps, versus going out for social rides.

In my experience more prefer the social rides and the lack of the pain of the hills. Not a criticism, they just enjoy different things.

This thread for example is quite heavily criticising women for being crap at sport and the results being rubbish to watch. Not exactly inspiring is it?

you read a lot of stuff into threads that isn't really there - where is the heavy criticism - there's stuff about lack of strength in depth of the field causing it to not be close, and how it is the same with mens competition, and there's stuff about screaming players being annoying.

How many young girls do you ever see down the park kicking or throwing a ball about, compared to the boys. The only stigma they would be getting at that point of their lives would probably be from their parents.

Parents, grand parents, what their friends are doing (influenced by their own parents). How many of us have mates who adore football and actively pass it on to their son, while following the sterotype of letting daugthers be brought following their mothers interest? Even if you dont do that with your kids they will be influenced by their friends who probably have. Its an incredibly slow process to change set preconceptions, as we can see from your view that women that 'just like different things' is not a result of societal imbalance. How many women (or even men) have been put off doing things they want by the perceptions of what the crowd is doing and just doing that instead.

How many young girls do you ever see down the park kicking or throwing a ball about, compared to the boys

I think you are pretty naive if you think that gender stereotypes aren't being enforced at that age. As soon as the kids are born it's girls this, and boys that. Even if you are careful not to do this at home, as soon as they hit nursery it starts.

Not a criticism, they just enjoy different things.

You don't have to make this point multiple times. I agree. The question I am asking is WHY is this the case?

where is the heavy criticism

I don't normally do this but:

"Women's tennis.... A bit meh?"

"I just don't find women's tennis particularly exciting..."

"I feel the same about most women's sport"

"I can't take it seriously, so I don't watch women's tennis"

"Other sports, mehhh. I'm sure they put in 100% of the effort the men do, and it's just as exciting to be involved in, but they're just not interesting to watch. Women's road cycling falls into that category"

"women's "top level" football is embarrassing to watch"

"IMO few ladies sports compete from an overall entertainment perspective and absurd TI ask for equal pay"

"It's not just Women's tennis that's beyond dull.."

"in general, women's sports are rubbish to watch compared to men's"

"Women boxing though, does nothing for me."

"Reminds me how off putting it is swimming sets behind a woman who has a tampn string dangling out of her cossie"

"it's not as good as watching the men"

"They just need to focus on more appropriate sports, jelly wrestling, beach volleyball, speed ironing, endurance breastfeeding, 5a side chit chat, that kind of thing"

"Outrageous that they get paid the same for a vastly interior product."

"it's because women aren't as good at any given sport"

Now imagine you're a young girl looking to make sense out of the world, and you read shit like that all the time. How do you think it'd make you feel about choosing sport? Knowing that society views it as a token gesture, that you're always going to be the sideshow or second best to the big tough men?

Now imagine you're a young girl looking to make sense out of the world, and you read shit like that all the time. How do you think it'd make you feel about choosing sport? Knowing that society views it as a token gesture, that you're always going to be the sideshow or second best to the big tough men?

Its not even that as the first barrier, but their peers. Dont follow the trend and your almost an outcast unless you find friends going the same was, it takes a strong person to do that and kids or teens have so much going on its hard for them to stick with it (and that goes just as much for boys)

How many young girls do you ever see down the park kicking or throwing a ball about, compared to the boys. The only stigma they would be getting at that point of their lives would probably be from their parents.

Sadly - my daughter (11) is that girl. And she doesn't get the stigma from her parents or grandparents, nor from her school teachers, all of who have supported her to the fullest extent.

In fact as I happen to have her class report in front of me let me copy some of it for you.....

"E has fully immersed herself in school life this year - she has been a brave and enthusiastic member of the girls and mixed football teams, scoring a goal in the district futsal final this year, has been part of the team that reached the county tag rugby finals, has braved every weather as part of the morning milers and has strummed her guitar with skill and glee. She needs to continue to be herself, she doesn't need to be anything she doesn't want to be"

That last comment is not at her or her capabilities. It's because she has really struggled at times this year, where despite being clearly capable she has been shunned by the boys in her peer group. And because she's not a stereotypical girl whatever the **** that is in these 'enlightened' times, she has no real girl friends in a small school either - there's only one other girl vaguely like her. And she feels lonely and isolated and without her organised sport clubs she feels she has nothing to belong to.

So where are these 10 and 11yo boys and girls getting their cues from? Because reading some of the past comments on this thread, i suspect they are being ingrained by people like you. And that makes me sad.

A couple of distasteful comments but things like 'meh' and a bit dull don't count as heavy criticism.

If you're the type of person who is going to excel at sport comments like that will mean nothing - compared to all the adversity you are going to have to get past to get to the top of your game.

Andy Murray gets a lot more flack than that and he is a hugely consistent and skilled player.

If you're the type of person who is going to excel at sport

Who said excel?

If you're the kind of person who wants to participate in sport, you should be able to without people telling you you can't / that it is of lesser value because you aren't as good as a male of the same relative capability.

"Today, 7 out of 10 girls feel they don’t belong in sports so it’s really no wonder that over half quit sports around puberty, at a moment where their confidence plummets and they are trying to conform to societal expectations. On top of feeling they need to stop something they often love, girls are then robbed of the benefits of playing sports, which is one of the strongest confidence-building activities at a time when they need it the most!

Sports is critical in building confidence. In fact, a recent study found that women aged 18 to 24 are twice as likely to be confident if they play sports regularly than those who do not play at all! And yet, society is not tackling the silent issue of girls dropping out of sports. "

[url= https://always.com/en-us/about-us/our-epic-battle-like-a-girl ]Like a Girl[/url]

Sorry, if you don't see the comments over the page as EXACTLY the issue that girls and parents of girls face, then you ARE part of that problem, like it or not.

I too think this is rubbish - girls as a whole just do not seem as driven as men to partake in sports

Perhaps its a question of programming. Who has ran human society for so long, and who set out the gender agendas.

A couple of distasteful comments but things like 'meh' and a bit dull don't count as heavy criticism.

They have the effect though. That shows you how ingrained sexist attitudes are, and demonstrates how people don't even realise it. People think women's sport isn't as good because it's women. And people don't even notice the corrosive effect that these attitudes are having on young girls.

The question you should be asking is "why the hell is half our population totally under-represented in the sporting establishment and media coverage?"

As a father I have to fight the attitudes just like the ones on display in this thread on a regular basis. Yes, girls can like Star Wars and superheros. No, you don't have to have Lego Friends, you can have the lorry. Yes, girls can be sports people etc etc. The amount of shocking sexist crap that they pick up casually from the people around them is awful.

Who said excel?

err, this thread was about womens tennis being a bit meh, which is because there is no strength in depth, and for there to be strength in depth it needs people who excel at tennis. Self explanatory.

Perhaps its a question of programming

In this country - in this day and age with cross gender/dressing people walking around and no-one batting an eyelid, but women don't feel empowered enough to put their trainers on and go out for some exercise the same as men do ?

In this country - in this day and age with cross gender/dressing people walking around and no-one batting an eyelid, but women don't feel empowered enough to put their trainers on and go out for some exercise the same as men do ?

YES. EXACTLY THAT.

Gender politics is a lot more complicated than you seem to realise.

People might be able to wander around as whatever gender they like, but you'll find that they are subject to stereotyping and prejudice. Women are, and men are too - except that men don't suffer as much from it or in the same ways.

No. It's a debate that has gone on from the original point 2 days ago, about the (perceived) lower value of women's sport.

In this country - in this day and age with cross gender/dressing people walking around and no-one batting an eyelid, but women don't feel empowered enough to put their trainers on and go out for some exercise the same as men do ?

Plenty do.... until they start getting told by certain parts of society that they can't. The other 'empowerment' issues are far more protected imho than this - because it's still perfectly ok and funny for people to laugh and point at women playing sport, with their tampon strings hanging out or their nipples slightly visible under their kit or....... ha ha. Well it isn't.

Do you have daughters? Do you have any idea what it's like?

The men of singletrackworld can always be relied upon to identify the struggles of women in western Europe at the hands of the privileged, white, misogynist patriarchy.

That's the third time you've cracked that same 'joke' in one thread now, JimJam.

It's nice to see there are some people on STW who 'get it', gives me a little hope, but overall this thread leaves me feeling very very sad.

The men of singletrackworld can always be relied upon to identify the struggles of women in western Europe at the hands of the privileged, white, misogynist patriarchy.

Not sure what this means jim.

because it's still perfectly ok and funny for people to laugh and point at women playing sport

Or fat women in the gym. And so on.

Good to see the threads still in full swing...

What are the scores so far ?

30 - Love ?

Or fat women in the gym. And so on.

Or the fat bloke?

30 - Love ?

Dont call me Love

[quote=molgrips ]

I do not - don't remember any stigmatism associated with the women in the tennis clubs I have been in

What about them? I'm not that interested in the sort of laddish stuff I imagine happens at such clubs either. Whilst I broadly agree with the points you're making, TurnerGuy does make a good point there - tennis is an example of a sport where things are far more equal than most (it's one of the few where top women players can make a really good living, and hence where there are plenty of well publicised role models) and it's one which a lot of women participate in at the recreational level. If the women still aren't pushing themselves as hard as the men despite an environment where they are equal that might tell you something. Because as much as you might like to blame it all on society, there are fundamental differences - it's the same difference which means it's mostly blokes getting into fights on a Saturday night.

I don't disagree that there's a lot wrong with society regarding women in sport and that is the principle thing which needs changing, but it's not the only thing.

Anecdotally I'm currently regularly participating in a couple of sports where there is a rather higher proportion of women taking part - roller skating and rock climbing. The most obvious difference is that they're both rather more social and less competitive than more traditional sports (the roller hockey I go to is certainly competitive, but then the gender ratios are slightly different at that, it's a fairly equal mix rather than female dominated as other sessions I go to tend to be!) which is I suppose also one reason they're what I'm now doing.

The Pilot - Member

That's the third time you've cracked that same 'joke' in one thread now, JimJam.

And I'll probably crack it next week, and the week after that because it looks as though the irony of men talking about what women want seems lost on a lot of people.

molgrips - Member

The men of singletrackworld can always be relied upon to identify the struggles of women in western Europe at the hands of the privileged, white, misogynist patriarchy.

Not sure what this means jim.

I was referencing the TDF podium girls thread which essentially ground to a halt when it became obvious that anyone who asked an actual woman for their opinion seemed to find out it wasn't deeply offensive. To women.

People are individuals. There's a spectrum of masculinity and femininity. As soon as someone on here comments that their daughter is naturally drawn to girly things, or their son to boyish things another poster will chime in that their daughter likes boyish things, as if this was proof of anything other than the personality of that one child.

There's nothing wrong with encouraging boys and girls equally in sporting endeavors but for most competitive sports men are simply more suited. Not only have we more muscle mass, denser bones etc but we are more competitive and more aggressive due to testosterone. It's been shown to actually change the brain when taken by female to male gender reassignments.

An exciting finish to a close race is great, but it has to be contextualized as part of a competition to find the best - that's what sport ultimately is. Competition, winners and losers.

If you want true, ultimate equality in sport let's just do away with male and female categories. Let everyone compete together and see who rises to the top, and the most exciting and the best sports will be popular regardless of gender. At the end of the day it's a form of discrimination to not let Serena Williams compete against men; she feels as though she's the best tennis player of all time and she's being denied the opportunity to prove it.

[quote=jimjam ]I was referencing the TDF podium girls thread which essentially ground to a halt when it became obvious that anyone who asked an actual woman for their opinion seemed to find out it wasn't deeply offensive. To women.

Meanwhile I'm enjoying the irony of your next paragraph pointing out that anecdotes of individuals are representative of nothing more than the opinions of individuals...

An exciting finish to a close race is great, but it has to be contextualized as part of a competition to find the best - that's what sport ultimately is. Competition, winners and losers.

So what you're suggesting here is that if the blokes aren't stuffing themselves full of all available drugs then there's no point? I mean if they're not doing that, then clearly they're not the ultimate best.

If you want true, ultimate equality in sport let's just do away with male and female categories. Let everyone compete together and see who rises to the top, and the most exciting and the best sports will be popular regardless of gender.

Why limit it to humans if you want the equality? You're discriminating against my greyhound.

At the end of the day it's a form of discrimination to not let Serena Williams compete against men; she feels as though she's the best tennis player of all time and she's being denied the opportunity to prove it.

cite

oh and my apologies for having an opinion on what women might want, despite knowing quite a lot of sporty women (some of whom would kick the arses of most people on here)

aracer

Meanwhile I'm enjoying the irony of your next paragraph pointing out that anecdotes of individuals are representative of nothing more than the opinions of individuals...

Don't you think the opinions of a group of women are more likely to be an accurate representation of the opinions of women than the guesses of men?

*edit. I see that you don't.

So what you're suggesting here is that if the blokes aren't stuffing themselves full of all available drugs then there's no point? I mean if they're not doing that, then clearly they're not the ultimate best.

Strawman.

cite

Not her words but I assumed most people would get the reference, especially considering the thread title.

If the women still aren't pushing themselves as hard as the men despite an environment where they are equal that might tell you something. Because as much as you might like to blame it all on society, there are fundamental differences

So do the Williams sisters not push themselves as hard as men? Does Jo Konta not?

What you are doing there is generalising. And also ignoring the fact that whilst there are high profile role models in tennis for women, sport [i]overall[/i] is still under-represented massively. What if you're a girl and you simply don't like tennis? Or are no good at it? What if you're stocky and powerful and would make a brilliant prop forward? You've only got the hard life of an amateur sports person to look forward to. My daughter is strong as hell and would be brilliant at rugby but even if she takes it up she can't hope for stardom, recognition or even a salary out of it.

People are individuals. There's a spectrum of masculinity and femininity. As soon as someone on here comments that their daughter is naturally drawn to girly things, or their son to boyish things another poster will chime in that their daughter likes boyish things, as if this was proof of anything other than the personality of that one child.

Yes. I'm arguing against generalisation - such as 'women's sport is crap' and 'girls aren't competitive' and so on. See above.

the irony of men talking about what women want seems lost on a lot of people.

Would it interest you to learn that I have spent a great deal of time talking to numerous women about this, and learning from them; and reading a good deal of material on the subject? Of course that's no substutute for first hand experience, but at least I am listening and trying to understand the problem.

I don't know what football clubs are like, but rugby and cricket clubs are very positive in my experience about the women's and girls' side of the club - indeed it is often cross-subsidized. All you see is people encouraging the girls to enjoy their sport and being given the opportunity to carry on upwards if they wish to - that is what is important - elite sport is helpful but there is no point getting hung up on it. Only very few should be encouraged to pursue it whether male or female.

The people who are negative about girls doing sport in my experience are other women.

All you see is people encouraging the girls to enjoy their sport

[i]At the club[/i] yes. But when a girl joins the club you've already won most of the battle.

I was referencing the TDF podium girls thread which essentially ground to a halt when it became obvious that anyone who asked an actual woman for their opinion seemed to find out it wasn't deeply offensive. To women.

That's because women are taught that if they do object they will be labelled humourless, men-hating, lesbian, militant feminists who men will find impossible to even like, never mind contemplate forming any kind of relationship with. Not directly obviously but in so many ways by so much of society.

Really, with some notable exceptions (Molgrips in particular comes in for commendation), most people on this thread don't seem to have two brain cells to rub together. Or perhaps it just suits them to keep pedalling the same old sexist, misogynistic nonsense.

most people on this thread don't seem to have two brain cells to rub together

You tell 'em pilot!!

At the club yes. But when a girl joins the club you've already won most of the battle.

Not at all, the battle begins at 11 when you start losing them - no difficultly getting girls into sports at younger ages.

You tell 'em pilot!!

Lol! I don't know if it was meant to or not but that made me laugh and perhaps means that now is a good time for me to step away from this thread 🙂

Really, with some notable exceptions (Molgrips in particular comes in for commendation), most people on this thread don't seem to have two brain cells to rub together. Or perhaps it just suits them to keep pedalling the same old sexist, misogynistic nonsense.

I see your point, but......

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I think the lower number of women in high level sport is due to men being noticeably stupider than women. There's more men than women in prison and the armed forces, both of which have a commendable equal opportunities entrance exam.

To become great at anything takes a very long time doing it, only the truly stupid are willing to sacrifice that much of their life to stupid stuff like tennis.

David Beckham, despite being a thicket, was self aware enough to say, "I done it for ages, so it made sense to keep doing it" when he went to the US to continue playing soccer.

Scholarly, I'm sure you'll agree.

Finding tennis of any gender a bit meh but have enjoyed some of the matches, I have got 2 of 3 girls playing u18 rugby and senior'ladies' No doubt they would get hammered if playing men of same level/age. I have watched dozens of matches over last few years and the commitment and increasingly skill levels are up there with male peers. There seems to be a bigger issue with tv access to top women rugby/sport maybe a final score or highlights at midnight! a bit chicken and egg i spose one will lead to the other? .Any how we all love it and see it for what it is . Off to Twickenham end of august been nominated for ladies team of the year 😆 2nd yr consecutively £90 per ticket FFS including the team nice way to support grass root sport

😀 pilot - it has gone a bit off piste this one. Amusing thread though and shorter than the dog one!

I actually don't see it as amusing. Having two daughters, I find much of this depressing.