[Closed] Winters coming;all inclusive rugby thread.

Regarding the "source", Parling is on record as saying a welsh prop admitted to collasping scrums 5 or 6 times post match. He also said, fair enough if you can get away with it which seeems at odds to Rowntree. Read into that what you will.

Oh, come on duckman. Why would you stoop to this level?

It's fairly self explanatory, I would have thought.

Posted 6 minutes ago # Report-Post

Go on then Zokes, explain it to me....

Or did I misread, you weren't really complaining about the ref? and to suggest so would make me "grossly mistaken" (gosh, what a sense of your own importance you have,it's a thread about rugby)

whether Walsh actually does have a bias against England I can't say. I suspect it's all three to one extent or another.

EDIT: I should add that there were plenty of groans from England supporters prior to the game about Walsh. If nothing else, that demonstrates a perceived previous history. England do seem to have lost a rather disproportionate number of games with him officiating - there reaches a point where that stops being related solely to the team's performance on the day.

There are a couple of examples of you not moaning about the ref.Puts whatever that post above with Warburton was about into context....

Wales' stunning victory over England in Cardiff on Saturday taught us many things but perhaps the most important lesson was handed down by capacity Millennium Stadium crowd. A 74,000 capacity crowd generated a rare and thrilling atmosphere that helped propel the home side to glory but in doing so they ended all hope of them playing host to their 2015 Rugby World Cup pool game against England. World Cup organisers may be keen to ensure venue agreements and financial targets are set, but they are not going to jeopardise the hosts' chances by offering Wales such a significant advantage.

That's good. Our best front row for me is Corbs, Kiwi Thug and Cole. Hartley seems to have had a real drop in form this season though.

anagallis_arvensis - Member
wales had the upperhand v ireland in the scrum ....

You must still be drunk. Fair enough, rose coloured beer goggles. Enjoy it.
Moving on...

Anyway, all this [s]moaning[/s] "debate" about Walsh and scrums is irrelevant. Man for man, I don't see a single position where the English team got the upper hand on Saturday.
Even without the scrum, Wales beat England in the backs.

England had nothing to match Wales from 10 back: Biggar, North, Roberts, Davies, [b]Cuthbert , Halfpee.[/b]
That's where all the points came from.

You wouldn't drop a single one of them if you were picking a side from the two teams' displays on Saturday.

Corbs seems to have built up a reputation, based on what i'm not sure.

Some time ago I asked AA what where the chances of the awesome welsh backrow all being fit and on form by England match, but just got emailed a load of pics of Gavin in his briefs 😉 What the match illustrated to me is Wales do have proven highly skilled operators but i look at that Englad starting 15 in a very average 6 nations and just feel a bit flat. However, come the Lions i'm convinved a few English players will make huge reputations for themselves.

England are seeking clarity, the press are putting their spin on it. They are unhappy with Walsh and have history with him, some raw nerves I suspect. Lancaster has admitted that England were stuffed and didn't turn up, he is not seeking to blame the ref for the loss, nor are most on here.

1/2p - an outstanding player and outstanding person too from the bits I've read about him. He keeps going up in my estimation.

Even without the scrum, Wales beat England in the backs. England had nothing to match Wales from 10 back

Can someone summarise all of this "Walsh history" with the key facts of why he hates England (genuine question)?

Go on then Zokes, explain it to me....

I would suggest that with a post as crass as that, it was you who needed to do some explaining

Or did I misread, you weren't really complaining about the ref?

You didn't misread, you selectively quoted, weakening your argument further.

Puts whatever that post above with Warburton was about into context....

If you'd actually read it, you'd see that the post was refuting your claim that I saw sporting success as a birthright. Which as brainless as it was, was about the least stupid thing you'd said in that last post.

Can someone summarise all of this "Walsh history" with the key facts of why he hates England (genuine question)?

Not just the English, it seems...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Walsh_(rugby_referee)

He was the guy at the centre of the shitstorm we England had 16 players on the pitch in 2003. He kicked up rather a fuss in the tunnel etc.

Anyway, isn't it the London Welsh appeal today? I wonder how that will go?

Zokes,You posted two threads doing the "Wales were the better team but"...including the quotes I posted above.I couldn't be bothered to post the whole ramble.Feel free to play any variation on the Edinburgh defense you wish. You are the new,but sadly much less likeable, TJ and I claim my £5.

I dunno why people talk about the world cup when discussing England now. It was a completely different team and coach...

Duckman, Zokes - I want a word please. Any more of this arguing and I'll have no choice but to bring out a yellow card. Now - scrum down.. oh wait, not a good idea...

Seems like Walsh is on the up career wise (probably couldn't go much lower) but what was specifically wrong with England?

Warning taken Molgrips.

Dan; Walsh likes it to be all about him. Warburton tugging his forlock when talking to him would go down very well. Other approaches may have been tried by other teams in a lighter strip that ruffled his feathers.
In the past
He also (rumour has it) offered an English coach outside. This is where the hatred of England is supposed to have begun. (See telling Shane Horgan to go and duck himself if he didn't like a decision for Irish conspiracy theory/ Sacking for being pished for NZ theory)
On his day, he provides a really good game as it is generally considered (among refs) that he refs competition at the breakdown better than any other elite ref.

duckman - Member
Zokes,You posted two threads doing the "Wales were the better team but"...including the quotes I posted above.I couldn't be bothered to post the whole ramble.Feel free to play any variation on the Edinburgh defense you wish. You are the new,but sadly much less likeable, TJ and I claim my £5.

You could save all this claptrap if you just read the other part of my posts, one of which is below:

zokes - Member
I'm happy to concede that England were thrashed by a much better team. I even enjoyed watching it - not from a sadistic self-harming PoV, more an exhibition of how to ruthlessly put another team to the sword.

In my eyes, the only 'turning point' was Tualangi ineffectually using his face, rather than his hands to catch a pass that would have left him under the posts eraly in the game, with support on the wing. Beyond that, in my eyes the ref didn't help, but certainly wasn't the reason we lost.

As you say, we've benefited from iffy decisions / missed forward passes before now. I'm happy enough to concede that on this occasion the dice controlling the ref came up snake eyes for England, and maybe that's just the luck of the draw. I still think Walsh is a poor ref, with a very poor record when officiating against England. Whether that's just my one-eyedness, chance that England always perform badly when Walsh refs us, or whether Walsh actually does have a bias against England I can't say. I suspect it's all three to one extent or another.

Now stop trying to pick an argument where there is none. All teams bleat when they're beaten, Wales in the last RWC being a very notable example, with plenty of the distasteful comments you're happy to tar all English with, yet are happy to hurl about yourself.

I'm still confused by this post of yours though, which as I've discussed, makes absolutely no sense, yet you seem to not want to discuss that:

Well Zokes, continuing to expect my team to perform according to their abilities and resources and if it improves my countries standings,great.It's called realism,and after all is only a game. [u]However unlike you,I don't view sporting success as my birthright, it would seem the English often,and in quite a nasty way,view sport as a way of vidicating an outdated nationalistic sense of superiority.[/u]And I include Twickenham crowds in this from experience. [u]And when you fall short there has to be reasons outwith your own control such as a ref.[/u]

The latter point being particularly salient to Warburton; hence my reference to that incident. Warburton deserved the red card, it wasn't harsh, it wasn't unlucky, it was just. You were subsequently beaten by a better French team. Didn't stop you all having a good moan about it though. Plenty Welsh (on here and elsewhere) seemed to think that Alain Rolland was a French name and therefore he must be French and shouldn't have been reffing the match.

Actually, I do now see where it came from, you're still sulking that whilst on a fairly regular basis you can beat England, but every time it matters in the big one, you end up on an early plane home. Really sad having an inferiority complex like that.

Walsh likes it to be all about him

[img] [/img]

He also (rumour has it) offered an English coach outside

Really sad having an inferiority complex like that.

I think the country as a whole has an inferiority complex - that's why our rugby team's success is so important, and it's also why it's been such a long road trying to get our team into a professional outfit that can back itself to properly fight for and win hard matches.

I do think the whole English are arrogant/expect success arhuement is a bit much in the context of this thread duckman....yes we've had a whinge (did you see what happened) though we have kept adding the caveat that Walsh's decisions didn't affect the result it seems to be ignored....Wales were better 1-15 than us.

Lets all play nicely again now please

f) Wales are pretty sneaky in the scrum, but fair 'enuff, they get away with it. Didn't Hibbett say they deliberately didn't hit against Scotland, thereby making it look as though Scotland were pushing early?; and I think there was some talk of them dropping the scrum deliberately against England

no thats not what was said at all. Wales dont cheat at the scrum (no more than anyone else) why would they they have a strong scrum.

Hmm, all this crap about the ref, I'm not sure I approve. I especially do not like the fact that england are going to complain. Aside from it being not very "stiff upper lip", but if there was an issue, surely the IRB bods would have noticed anyway?

It's not good, I would rather we accepted the loss for what it was and not allow doubt/blame of others to come in to it. We lost cos Wales were better, end of.

Sorry Molgrips; 😀

Actually, I do now see where it came from, you're still sulking that whilst on a fairly regular basis you can beat England, but every time it matters in the big one, you end up on an early plane home. Really sad having an inferiority complex like that.

Really? I have never had an inferiority complex about sporting expectations for Scotland, as I have none.Feel free to cite anything in the 100 odd pages in which I have been anything other than self-depreciating about Scotland. Also our record against England would suggest we cannot even win the little games.I just want to stop losing to Italy. Apologies to fellow users for the spat.

We lost cos Wales were better, end of.

+1

Happy now, duckface?

Stealth edit response stealth edit 8)

FWIW, I did still really enjoy the match, just a pity I wasn't watching it anywhere where there were people actually interested in rugby at all. (Other than my Welsh wife, Scottish friend, and Canadian(!) boss (oh, and STW)). Living in South Australia you really wouldn't even know the Wallabies existed, never mind the six nations!

Give us a cuddle Boakes (stealth edit completed) 8)

Oh and Zokes could you shut the **** up and take your dull and boring little opinions elswhere?

Hmm, all this crap about the ref, I'm not sure I approve

England got very lucky with Joubert at home wales got lucky with a few at home to england. Cant see the scrumsissue though.

Yesterday at 5:56pm · ""The teacher asked her class to write down on a piece of paper the type of work their daddies did.
The children, very excitedly, scribbled their answers.
One by one, the teacher asked each child to stand and describe the job.
There was much laughter and screaming, apart from, that is, little Tommy.
“Tommy, why do you look so sad?” asked the teacher.
Tommy slowly rose to his feet, and replied: “My Dad’s a stripper in a gay bar”.
The other children remained silent, as Tommy continued:
“Sometimes, he doesn’t come home, and my Mummy sits crying. Sometimes, he sells his body for other men’s pleasure.”
There were gasps around the classroom. The teacher acted quickly and dismissed the children, telling them to go out and play.
She then walked up to little Tommy, put her arm around his shoulders, and asked: “Is all that true, Tommy?”
“No, not at all, Miss. He really plays rugby for England, but I was too embarrassed to say”.

Many fans aren't doing England any favours by less than humble in defeat

TBH I have always been proud of England in defeat, other nations are the ones who are supposed to be less than humble. I would rather we have a discussion about how to move forward.

edit:

England are entitled to "seek clarity" though, I have no problem with that if it's done for the right reasons.

I agree, in fact having now read the guardian article, it appears that england are not planning to "complain" but to seek clarity. Seems ok to me, they obviously had an issue getting on with the ref or understanding how he wanted them to play, best thing to do is make sure they do understand in the future. Bloody press sensationalising again..

anagallis_arvensis - Member
Oh and Zokes could you shut the **** up and take your dull and boring little opinions elswhere?

And if you ever wanted to see a bad example of a Welsh fan, A_A presents himself as "Exhibit A".

I have never had an inferiority complex about sporting expectations for Scotland, as I have none

That IS an inferiority complex. Being too ready to believe you are rubbish.. being pessimistic, expecting to lose.

Although that was probably entirely realistic for Scotland in the last few years 🙂

To quote Rowntree:

"We were disappointed with a lot of those calls, particularly the scrum penalties. I don't buy the whole 'streetwise' thing, we just want a clean outcome. We don't practise anything different. I spoke to Steve after the game on Saturday night but, having watched it again, I need clarification."

It depends on your definition of 'streetwise'. If you mean 'better technically' then I can see some of the issue - although Wales were still better in this regard.

I think that when pundits used 'streetwise' they meant 'playing the ref'. In this instance, Wales did play Walsh better than England, but it wasn't the deciding factor in the result.

Walsh is a grandstanding show-off. Exactly what you don't want in a sport official. I always think the best compliment a referee or umpire can receive is a spectator saying to them "I didn't realise it was you who was officiating" - meaning the game just progressed correctly without any contentious decisions or non-decisions.

We played a last game of the season cricket decider for our local county premier league. Winner takes all. It was pretty even, and the opposition were batting second. One more wicket and we were through to the tail and they were still quite a way off. The umpire had previously warned our bowler about running on the 'danger area'. The fact that he had not been previously talked to about this all season is relevant, but not crucial.

Anyway, he bowls the ball and hits the lad who is scoring the runs halfway up the shin in front of all three (right arm away swing bowler to a RH bat). Absolutely plonkers in front. The sort of LBW that a batsman ought to consider walking for.

The umpire says "that's your second warning for running on the pitch, you have to be removed from the attack".

Stunned silence. So we say "OK, then but what about the LB?"

The umpire says "I didn't see that, I was looking at where the bowler put his feet after bowling the ball".

Cue a lot of quite naughty behaviour by our side. The lad in question went on to make an unbeaten fifty and win the game for them. He came to play for us the next season (as a twist).

Turns out the umpire had a reputation for having to be 'in the game' and had been hounded out of his previous league as a result. He went on to officiate in another league and we heard that he hadn't changed one iota.

Walsh has brought this on himself. If you don't want to make yourself an easy target then don't seek attention!

There's a lot of crap spouted about rugby nationalities and their so-called arrogance or whatever. Some from actual player.

My fave has to be the example in Will Greenwood's book when Andrew Mehrtens insisted that England were 'prucks to lose to' (that's a NZ accent in case you are wondering).

Turns out that Mehrtens had never been in an All Blacks side that had lost to England, so WTF did he know about it!

wrecker - Member
it would seem the English often,and in quite a nasty way,view sport as a way of vidicating an outdated nationalistic sense of superiority.And I include Twickenham crowds in this from experience
Oh, come on duckman. Why would you stoop to this level?

What utter drivel duckman. Have you never been to Twickers and enjoyed a post match beer with supporters from other nations? Win or lose there's a post match camaraderie in pubs across south west London amongst opposing fans that put many other sports to shame.

Its only on here that the welsh are perpetuating an image of an english nationalist superiority complex. Most of us have conceded that the game was won well by Wales, and that walsh has a bias, but didn't lose us the game.

Really now, what is the problem?!

Example of why other nations get cross with England and/or their fans.

Just flicked through yesterday's i newspaper, looking for the crossword. Three pages of articles about England, none about any of the other competitors. Is i an English newspaper?

We often get a sense that it's all about England, that the nation (UK) is supporting England in the 6N.

We often get a sense that it's all about England, that the nation (UK) is supporting England in the 6N.

It isn't really the media's fault that roughly five out of every six readers in their audience is English. The solution to that problem would be to read a paper published in Wales, or watch a Welsh TV channel, or listen to a Welsh radio station...

Hardly the fans fault what happens in the media molly.

I'm guessing that i sell most of their papers in Englandshire though so are catering for their biggest audience?

Just flicked through yesterday's i newspaper, looking for the crossword. Three pages of articles about England, none about any of the other competitors. Is i an English newspaper?

This is frankly bollocks, it is only today that the guardians main online page has dropped the four stories about wales and their brilliance.

Have you never been to Twickers and enjoyed a post match beer with supporters from other nations?

It isn't really the media's fault that roughly five out of every six readers in their audience is English. The solution to that problem would be to read a paper published in Wales, or watch a Welsh TV channel, or listen to a Welsh radio station...

And this. Otherwise every time I go to Wales I should moan about the South Wales Argus

duckman - Member

Yes, 3 times.

Then you should be aware - no doubt you comment was deliberately trolling.

Molgrips - the cottage I stay in has terrestrial TV only and the two channels it showns are in welsh language. Now, bearing in mind the cottage cater for visitors to wales and I suspect the minority of watchers in the cottage are indeed Welsh, I should therefore complain eh?

This is frankly bollocks

It's not bollocks - I'm just saying why people get the feelings that they do. If you pick up a paper (whatever it is) and see too much England coverage and none for your nation, which has happened in some cases but apparently not others, then it can be annoying.

However it's a perfectly valid point that most readers are English. But on the other hand, only 1 in 6 of the players in the competition were English.

The solution to that problem would be to read a paper published in Wales

No. The i is NOT an English newspaper, it's a British newspaper.

Just to make it clear - I'm not passing comment on whether it's right or wrong, and I'm not moaning about it - I'm giving an example of what contributes to anti-english sentiment in rugby.

Molgrips - the cottage I stay in has terrestrial TV only and the two channels it showns are in welsh language

English language TV is broadcast across Wales. But see above - I'm not personally moaning about coverage.

I thought in scotland the main coverage in something like the Sunday Times was what ever match Scotland were playing?

No it is, I considered taking snapshots of it since last sunday to prove this point if it came up, but then I thought how petty it was and that the welsh would just be happy with wall to wall coverage, which there undeniably has been.

what contributes to anti-english sentiment in rugby.

is a piss poor attitude, I've lost count of the facebook photoshoppings and jokes about england since our inglorious defeat, I like it, it is funny and neccesary. But if we did it in reverse it would be arrogance to the wallys. So please stop being a wally and do not raise this. If people choose to be offended/anti english it is their choice, it is not the english's fault. END OF.

it can be annoying.

"In the three meetings we have had, we looked at picking a squad at that particular time, so we didn't pick players that were injured. Some players have come back from injury, some have picked up injuries. The next six weeks before we name the squad we are probably going to end up with a few injuries as well.

"Definitely, without even thinking about it, three names come to mind. Zebo, is currently out for 10 weeks so it will be whether he gets himself back in time to put himself into contention. He is inexperienced about at the top level but you can't deny that there is something about him in terms of scoring tries and something happens when he is on the field.

"Paul O'Connell is also coming back - but can he get himself fit enough? Dan Lydiate is the other one.