MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
These last few weeks there seems to be more blokes and women just walking round, not working,not much traffic, shops empty, but walky/riding places seem full of seemingly unemployed people.
The uni,s are cutting back on students, by increasing fees, nearly every workplace is suffering job loses, and we are now expected to attend work for longer.
How is all this unemployment going to be paid for, and by whom, the diminishing group of workers, thats before we start looking at the never worked, who need paying dole money and housing benefit.
Can full employment ever return, or is it a thing of the past, and for some a distant memory.
In a capitalist model, surely for every success there needs also to a be somebody they've beaten on the eat up?
Competition can only work if there's a loser to go with the winner
I don't believe that full employment will return whilst we follow the current economic model.
Look at the jobs that are around and consider the potential candidates, few firms seem interested in training new staff and would much rather poach trained staff from a competitor. So how does someone with no experience get a job?
This is ignoring whether the potential candidates are mentally or physically capable of the work on offer.
So how do we get out of the hole we are in, that is a very interesting question, can you deny people benefits whilst accepting that there is no way they can actually get a job, how do we go about equiping people to do jobs, how do you get the training needed, and more importantly the first job in that field?
But in a less tactful way, is it right that people on benefits should expect their child costs to be paid for if the child was conceived after they stopped working? Should there be any right to subsidised council housing or should all rental housing be a fixed rates regardless of whether in the public or private sector.
Can full employment ever return, or is it a thing of the past, and for some a distant memory.
free movement of labour within the EU is your first problem to resolve
the current expansion of the EU will take 30-40 years to run out and to see the economies operating at a similar level. Until then EU and nonEU economic migration will continue to put pressure on the UK nationals not willing to travel to work.
recent stats show that when the UK economy expands, it's non UK nationals that get the jobs
the answer will be complex and not involve massive expansion of the state sector 😉
anything can return if there is a will but George prefers to cut corporation tax and public services. Given the growth figures in unemployment , the increase in inflation and the decline in growth it is hard to argue against the success of this and TINA says so.
Depends what you mean by full employment, never been full employment in my lifetime (53)
anything can return if there is a will but George prefers to cut corporation tax and public services. Given the growth figures in unemployment , the increase in inflation and the decline in growth it is hard to argue against this TINA says so.
nothing to do with a virtually unlimited labour pool and real terms incomes/ economic activity being higher than other EU countries then?
So none of what I mention has anything to do with the political beliefs of the current govt?
Oh I like this game where I only ask questions 😉
How is all this unemployment going to be paid for
By the government - which will of course cause budgetary deficit.
never been full employment in my lifetime (53)
There was full employment up until the early 60s.
its not an unlimited labour pool
despite what you might have read on a flyer somewhere the entire poulation of europe does not want to leave their homes and move to britain and take jobs from us honest brits
full employment will never return and as our economy depends ever more heavily upon the financial sector its even less likely- unless we all train to become bankers
although i can envisage that future where we are all tech support for middle class asian computer numpties who mock our terrible urdu and mandarin accents
So none of what I mention has anything to do with the political beliefs of the current govt?
Oh I like this game where I only ask questions
you can get as upset as you want about the current or previous administration, the reality is that there is a large moblie workforce in the EU, this workforce follows the money, as soon as there is a labour shortage in a country wages will rise, they then move to follow the money. This economic migration then has a "tail" which is the people who start to gain benefits and want to stay in the country they are employed in.
until you can limit the size of the labour pool you won't ever be able to achieve full employment
discuss!
despite what you might have read on a flyer somewhere the entire poulation of europe does not want to leave their homes and move to britain and take jobs from us honest brits
so the eastern european car registrations at building jobs locally are fakes? etc etc
Not until transport costs (oil) rises massively. With globalisation, it is cheaper to import low value-add items than make them locally, so low skilled locals have to compete on salary with the rest of the world - which means a massive drop in living standards or sitting on the dole.
the entire poulation of europe does not want to leave their homes and move to britain
[i][b]"so the eastern european car registrations at building jobs locally are fakes?"[/b][/i]
So the entire poulation of Europe is parked outside British building sites ? 😀
so there are over 2.5 million poles working on building sites we just need to kick out of the country and bingo - full employment again?
There is nothing wrong with Eest Europeans working on our building sites, the locals are free to apply but if someone is prepared to travel half way across Europe to work harder than a lower skilled local, who is going to turn them down? I wouldn't.
limit the size of the labour pool
Are you suggesting there is an imperfection in the market that requires regulation...that sounds awfully left wing
Tory governments traditionaly regard high unemployment as a price worth paying for their policies.
As long as we have this ridiculous pendulum government cycle from con to lab, the parties can blame each other for any/all of our problems
back from yesterday's demo Ernie?
Are you suggesting there is an imperfection in the market that requires regulation...that sounds awfully left wing
the nuance is how you define "the market", before you understand the "imperfection" and then try and "regulate"
sounds very IDS to me as GB didn't much beyond rectoric in "British jobs for British workers". At least the current set recognise that UK worker need to compete with non-UK natioanls for jobs in their home townssounds awfully left wing
There was full employment up until the early 60s.
I wonder what proportion of women worked at that time?
There is nothing wrong with Eest Europeans working on our building sites, the locals are free to apply
That's simply not true. If there is a limited amount of jobs, then every job taken by an East European is a job which can't be taken by "a local".
Furthermore, wages on building sites have not increased since the EU enlargement - as a direct result of imported cheap labour.
As I've said before, it is not the British government's responsibility to solve Poland's unemployment problems for them........the Poles need to elect their own government which deals with that. It is however the British government's responsibility to deal with problems concerning Britain.
project - MemberThe uni,s are cutting back on students, by increasing fees
simple economics, the universities that get way more applications than they have room for are obviously going to charge more. my uni is raising fees by 80 quid 😆
As I've said before, it is not the British government's responsibility to solve Poland's unemployment problems for them........the Poles need to elect their own government which deals with that. It is however the British government's responsibility to deal with problems concerning Britain.
They are dealing with the problems. They are keeping wages low driving the local population to compete with it.
It is however the British government's responsibility to deal with problems concerning Britain
You need to vote for a party which is committed to stopping immigration and sending them back where they belong, ernie.
They are dealing with the problems. They are keeping wages low driving the local population to compete with it.
Well I have to confess that it hadn't occurred to me, that the problems which concern Britain today include high wages.
I assume that excludes bankers salaries and bonuses though ........cos they is worth every penny.
You need to vote for a party which is committed to stopping immigration and sending them back where they belong, ernie.
Oh you are so clever aracer, just suggest that anyone who opposes the exploitation of people who are desperate for work, and argues that British livelihoods should be defended against foreign competition, is a racist who should vote BNP. I wonder why no one has ever thought of doing that before.........perhaps they ain't as clever as you eh ?
It's funny though, how if a company decides to close a factory in the UK and move operations to another country where there is cheaper labour, no one accuses those opposed to such a move of being a racist. In fact they are praised for doing a sterling job in defending British interests.
And yet if that same company decides to keep its factory in the UK and instead import cheap foreign labour to work instead of British workers, anyone opposing that is labelled a racist.
Well British building sites are as good as factories, and whilst they can't move operations overseas they can do the next best thing and import cheap foreign labour.
And btw aracer, your Guardian reader type knee-jerk reaction is precisely the sort of stuff which drives British workers into the arms of racists like the BNP.
Fighting racism and the BNP is hard enough for people like me, without idiots like you making things even harder.
Blimey - trolling on internet forums makes people vote BNP?
I just get little pissed off when every time I or anyone else, tries to defend the livelihood of ordinary British workers, idiots like you, come along and make insinuations that the motive is racist. It's just so boring and utterly predictable.
And it's invariably made by people who couldn't give a toss about foreign workers, and are more than happy to see them exploited in no less a manner than British workers.
If it's so predictable, why do you rise to it - or is that you being predictable? 😆
Though more seriously, given free movement of labour in the EU, how exactly do you propose the government should deal with the problem of imported labour keeping down wages on building sites? Totally serious question - it's not something I've put a lot of thought into so don't really have any ideas. ISTM it's not really that easy a problem.
If it's so predictable, why do you rise to it
I thought I had just explained that to you - it pisses me off.
If you want me to expand on that well apart from the fact that it's just so boring and utterly predictable, it is also dangerous. The BNP and other racists need to have the rug pulled from under them by people tackling the very real, genuine, and legitimate, concerns which ordinary working people have, and which are often very effectively exploited by racists/the BNP.
The fear of being labelled racist puts many people off - although not me. And it plays right into the hands of the BNP.
Though more seriously, given free movement of labour in the EU, how exactly do you propose .....blah, blah, blah,
That's already been dealt with in the past. You know very well what my views on the EU are. And you also know my views on New Labour's "open door policy" at a time when it wasn't necessary. If you can't remember then there isn't any point in me reminding you as you'll just forget again.
You know very well what my views on the EU are. And you also know my views on New Labour's "open door policy" at a time when it wasn't necessary
Sorry ernie - I'm not stalking you quite as much as you seem to think. I'll try very hard to remember for next time. You could of course vote UKIP - "Libertarian, non-racist party seeking Britain's withdrawal from the European Union"
ernie, so how many Brits have moved to Germany, Norway or Italy to work and live there? Anything to do with a typical Brit's unwillingness to learn, accept and embrace other cultures?
Look at it this way - before the Poles "flooded" the job market, how long did you have to wait for a plumber in Hammersmith? The residents of Crewe complain about the Poles working at the local Tesco warehouse, did they apply to work night shifts 4 or 5 years ago? Did they apply to fill shelves? Did they ****.
Stop being a moron, travel 1000 miles away from your family, work for low wage and tell me then you're taking advantage of the local system.
I would think that a large part of the problem is the reduction in labour intensive jobs. Farming used to require far more workers than today. We used to have small corner shops and village shops: now supermarkets are pushing self service checkouts onto us. Workers used to fill up your car for you at petrol stations. Street cleaners didn't use those brushing vehicles they do now, so they could clean less and there needed to be more of them.
These were admittedly all rather low wage physical jobs, and I probably sound like a Luddite...but maybe that was ok?
aracer - MemberSorry ernie - I'm not stalking you quite as much as you seem to think. I'll try very hard to remember for next time.
Well if I can remember previous discussions I've had with other other forum users, and what positions they took, then I think you can probably manage it too. And if you have so little interest in the views of others then why all the questions
.
Hairychested - Memberernie.......Stop being a moron, travel 1000 miles away from your family, work for low wage and tell me then you're taking advantage of the local system.
And yet your inability to read my posts, or the deliberate pretence that I am suggesting E. Europeans are simply "taking advantage" marks [i]you[/i] out as a moron.
Let me help you ........
[i]"the exploitation of people who are desperate for work"[/i]
and
[i]" it's invariably made by people who couldn't give a toss about foreign workers, and are more than happy to see them exploited in no less a manner than British workers."[/i]
I have not the slightest problem with East Europeans who work on British building sites. My issue is solely with government policy, particularly New Labour policy, which cynically exploited poor people's desperate need for work as a means of undermining and suppressing the wages of British workers..........whatever their ethnic origin
And that attitude is exactly the same as that of the overwhelming majority of British building workers, ie they blame the government not the foreign workers themselves. In fact I find the almost complete lack of racism/bigotry on building sites in Britain, all things considered, quite staggering.
In my experience the only significant expression of racism on building sites comes from some East Europeans and is directed against black British. Which whilst I appreciate that they don't come from multiracial societies and it's all rather new to them, I find particularly distasteful. If they don't like our multiracial/ethic society, then they should bugger off back to their own countries instead of slagging off British citizens. Although I have to emphasise that they are a minority.
Hairychested - Member.....a typical Brit's unwillingness to learn, accept and embrace other cultures?
A nice bit of racial stereotyping and bigotry by you there Hairychested. Still, you won't be the first East European to come out with crap like that.
Full employment = stagnation.
footflaps - Member
There is nothing wrong with Eest Europeans working on our building sites, the locals are free to apply but if someone is prepared to travel half way across Europe to work harder than a lower skilled local, who is going to turn them down? I wouldn't.
Someone with their family in Poland has lower cost than someone with their family in the UK so can sell their labour below point wich a local person is able to compete.
~Junkyard - Member
anything can return if there is a will but George prefers to cut corporation tax and public services. Given the growth figures in unemployment , the increase in inflation and the decline in growth it is hard to argue against the success of this and TINA says so. "
This seems to rather overlook the fact that companies have been saying for years that if punitive rates of corporation tax weren't re-assessed, they would move profits and jobs abroad. Labour didn't beleive them - even after 3 Plcs moved offshore (Shire, Wolesey, WPP).
In light of the cut to corporation tax (which will enable companies to increase internal investment), WPP are now considering moving back to the UK for tax purposes. How is this a bad outcome?
It's funny, I'm a foreign person over here having taken somebody local's job. But as I am white middle class and educated it never seems to bother anybody. Hmm.
The problem is simple some countries are more sh*t than others. Until we sort out this imbalance people will want to leave their country and come to better countries and the people already there will resent them for it.
Hels I've been thinking something along that line recently. Currently we allow well qualified workers from outside the EU to come to our country. In the long term we'd be better having the quota the other way round. Well qualified workers have to stay in their countries and sort them out. Developed countries should take in as many of the less well of that they can afford to make it easier for them countries to grow and hopefully slow down their birth rate.
Once all countries are as good as each other we can totally open the borders as no one will care where every one is from.
It has to be noted the most rasict period of time was probably around 1900 this coincided with the greatest disparity between developed/undeveloped countries.
until you can limit the size of the labour pool you won't ever be able to achieve full employment
I can't think of a time in UK history has there been a) full employment and b) a limited labour pool? There has always been immigration from the Continent (because immigration controls didn't really exist before the 20th century), from Ireland, from Italy, from Jamaica/****stan, from Hong Kong etc right up to the EU.
The Poles (Czechs, Bulgarians etc) are just the latest wave of immigrants to the UK about whom there has been moaning and fearmongering as to the risk of the natives being left as the ****less, undeserving poor etc. What's interesting is how many of them have actually left due to the downturn.
"Full employment = stagnation"
War! What is it good for? = Full employment
if you find out what this New World Order they keep banging on about is then you will know that THEY need the current system to totaly collapse to impliment it, so No we wont recover anytime soon (unless we ALL put our collective foot down).
and we know Thats never gonna happen ..... 🙄
Labour didn't beleive them - even after 3 Plcs moved offshore (Shire, Wolesey, [b]WPP[/b]).In light of the cut to corporation tax (which will enable companies to increase internal investment), [b]WPP are now considering moving back to the UK for tax purposes. How is this a bad outcome?[/b]
[cynic mode] Nothing to do with old school cronieism then???
The wealthy capitalists have always taken / threatened to take their wealth out of the UK with Labour in power, and hey presto - back in the UK to support their blue school pals...[\cynic mode]
I heard Martin Sorrel (?) on the radio last week - of course, the UK economic climate has improved [i]so[/i] much that he is going to bring his business back.....
ETA regarding full employment - of course we have had it in the past:
- as serfs working on the masters' estates.
- as worker ants in the first flushes of the industrial revolution, large scale population movement - not across countries, but from country to town as the rural poor tried to escape the grinding poverty of working for the only landowner around, and;
-in wartime
Has it been a policy aim of any of the political parties in the last 20 years to achieve zero unemployment ?
It's unlikely to happen without that first step.
tory cheers as the cuts to public sector jobs were announced back in the emergency budget do make you wonder
rkk01 - suggest you read up on the fiduciary duties of company directors.
The WPP move has everything to do with the requirement on directors to act in the interests of shareholders. With that comes a requirement for Directors to consider where a company should be headquartered in the eventuality that the company derives most of its income overseas, as is the case with WPP.
With UK advertising spend now increasing after some years of decline (The recent improvement in ITV trading results provide more evidence of this), it's entirely legitimate for WPP's Board to reconsider where they should be headquartered, not least in light of the change to corporation tax.
The WPP move has everything to do with the requirement on directors to act in the interests of shareholders. With that comes a requirement for Directors to consider where a company should be headquartered in the eventuality that the company derives most of its income overseas, as is the case with WPP.
I'm sure it does / did...
entirely legitimate for WPP's Board to reconsider where they should be headquartered
and of course, an entirely commercial decision - no need to read any politics into it at all 😉
Nothing to do with old school cronieism then???
Well if it is, having old school croneys in government is clearly a good thing.
ETA regarding full employment - of course we have had it in the past:- as serfs working on the masters' estates.
- as worker ants in the first flushes of the industrial revolution, large scale population movement - not across countries, but from country to town as the rural poor tried to escape the grinding poverty of working for the only landowner around
Unemployment is a consequence of industrialisation. And starvation was a consequence of serfdom. Ever since the economy ceased to be dominated by agriculture and self-employed artisans there has been unemployment, except during decades when social-democratic principles of government intervention were applied. Unemployment is not inevitable, not even within a capitalism system. Full employment does however create huge problems for those who believe in the supremacy of market forces. And for that reason it cannot be tolerated and the myth that unemployment is an inevitable phenomena is relentlessly promoted.