[Closed] Will we become a nation of zombies - UK ghost towns

I've certainly noticed that since the [s]recession[/s] economic downturn, that I hunger for braaaaaainssss a lot more than I used to.

Well I cant afford lenor any more, so my shirts are all itchy and I have to walk everywhere slowly, with my arms held out in front of me to avoid chafing.

I blame councils and their dumb parking policies for starters!

It got much worse when Police handed parking control over to councils and all the well trained traffic wardens got replaced with "parking attendants" - an especially low form of life!

Councils sell us this notion that cars parked everywhere is a problem, but they haven't yet worked out that cars transport people, who have money to spend in these businesses - that's just about all of us!

Human beings will always take the route of least resistance, hence the success of out of town shopping centres with free parking.

The truth is that councils let the contractors who they "subbed" the parking enforcement out to, to place ever stringent restrictions in order to generate more penalty notices - more profit! It's happened in my town and problems were created where none had existed, when they expanded the controlled zone. There is now a second review which will extend the problems further. The only place they seem to have missed in the the new plans is the main council estate. A few outlying streets remain free of restriction. Commuters and residents of soon to be controlled streets will park there soon, causing further complaints. In the end, they will have to yellow line the whole town! It's ok where we live because most people can afford the permit fees and fines, but the council have failed to address the issues and have in effect placed a further tax on residents (like residents aren't alreasdy paying enough). And we'll role over and pay because we are the passive majority - the cash cows! Businesses have suffered greatly as a result of this.

As the Uniform Business rate is collected by central government, there is no direct financial incentive for councils to help nurture small businesses in their local community. They [u]can[/u] get money from parking, but as they have no ability to run anything efficiently, it gets contracted out. As they also aren't very good at negotiating, we often get very bad value for money with these contracts, but the council tax still goes up well above the rate of inflation each year! They cut services at the same time, but the increases go on paying the pensions of retired council employees. The funding from central government gets capped and this is another reason they force us to make up the shortfall.

The other issue is that there are too many local authorities and there is a lot of confusion and apparent "buck passing". Why do we need to have a town council, a district council and a county coucil? Surely all should be rolled into one accountable organisation with local offices meeting specific local needs and then a reporting heirarchy back to the head office!?

If we had some intelligent thinking about the practicalities faced by those who enable businesses work - the customers, we'd be on the right road. If we had vibrant local economies, we could better afford the expensive overhead of council services. Some of which actually [u]are[/u] very useful and neccessary.

Unfortunately, councils are mostly decked out with commercially unsavvy people. Their socialist ideals are all about enforcing rules and regulations and business is something least on their minds. They are preoccupied with litigation and health and safety, to the detriment of all esle. There is also no doubt jealously on their part when they encounter anyone who wishes to better themselves whether it be in the form of a business, or a private concern. There wil always be a protracted delay and a "can't do" attitude from them.

What these councils need is a sea change in attidude and to become more customer orientated. They don't seem to understand that they exist to serve the community, not to weald power over it! They need to understand what it is like to have natural predators to their organisation and that their income can go down very significanlty in times of recession. None of this will happen in my life time!

The sad fact is that parts of the UK have far too many people reliant on the local public sector and this stifles development business even further.

A public sector should be proportionate - sufficient to serve the community in which it exists. If it gets too big, then we have an uneconomic situation and that community is in effect dead. What a waste of talent!

The North East was once a hive of manufacturing and successive governments have failed to rejuvenate industry there. Just today we have heard about the balance of imports/exports. Despite a weak pound, we still imported much more than we exported. I'd suggest we need higher import duties and encourage people to buy British. Fat chance!

The ghost towns in America exist due to different reasons. Towns there quickly spring up when a source of income appears, such as the discovery of minerals, oil, or any other commercial influence. When the income dries up, due to the vastness of the country an the dynamism of the people who run the place, people move on. It happens elsewhere in the world, but in the UK it's different, this is an overcrowded isle. We have a "peaked cap" culture where people are subject to all sorts of rules and regulations, penalties and high taxes, which the people of other countries would and do just just laugh at.

It would be more acceptable if there were decent services in return for these taxes. From what I can make out, a huge proportion of the money we pay goes to people in difficult circumstances, making it too cushy for them to be enconomically inactive. Instead, we welcome migrant workers from poorer coutries to do the jobs that those on these benefits should be doing. Benfit culture should not be a lifestyle choice, but that is what it has become.

I suppose all the lefties will tear my argument apart in their usual manner.

I suppose all the lefties will tear my argument apart in their usual manner.

I think that's the longest post I have ever seen on here.

I didn't read all that, but if people are short on money can't they walk to places (as I always do) ?

Predictable commercial "head in the sand" response cynic-al!

could do spongebob but I'll just have a go at one thing - its nothing to do with parking - its planning policies that have caused the out of town shopping phenomenon. It the Netherlands there was a blanket ban on most types of out of town shopping centre. Thus they town centres still survive as town centres.

We need proper parking enforcement to uphold the rights of the non car owning majority 🙂

Yes, I walk to my high street. It's 3 minutes away, but the charity shops and estate agents aren't much use to me. I don't want to spend £3 on a coffee either. We did have a very useful car parts shop, but this got replaced with yet another nail bar.

If I want to go proper shopping, I have to drive!

Given the state of this economy, could this happen over here...

No. Social housing effectively immobilises a fair proportion of the population.

sopnegbob for a cyclist on a cyclist forum you seem to think the car is the answer to everything?!

TandemJeremy - Member

could do spongebob but I'll just have a go at one thing - its nothing to do with parking - its planning policies that have caused the out of town shopping phenomenon. It the Netherlands there was a blanket ban on most types of out of town shopping centre. Thus they town centres still survive as town centres.

We need proper parking enforcement to uphold the rights of the non car owning majority

Non-car owning majority? Are you suggesting that the majority of non-car owners don't have access to a car? How daft!

You also clearly don't run a business on a British high street and haven't ever had a converstation with a business owner!

Sales have gone up in our town centre since they introduced the mini retail park on the outskirts. It's busier than it has been for years and more shops are being built.

Altrincham is the ultimate contradiction. The burbs (Hale, Bowdon) are awash with cash, the town centre is an utter shite-hole populated exclusively by chavs. Where do they come from?

Interesting to see what happens. One of the in-laws is a manager of a large national clothing store. The rental prices in Newcastle town centre are phenomenal (especially Eldon Square). Out of town at the Metro Centre are cheaper, free parking etc. etc. - it's kinda a no-brainer for accountants.

Soon Newcastle will jsut be full of coffee shops.

Sunderland is even worse - the entire shopping centre is full of pound shops. When I worked there we used to wander around them on lunchbreaks asking assistants how much things were to annoy them.

Once rental prices drop in town centres I'm sure magically shops will start appearing, though will probably end up as identikit shopping centres and you'll never know which town you are in.

I suppose it's progress.

Yes and it's (as usual) factually incorrect.

Parking your car isn't a right, it's a cost you take on when you buy a car. Why should the LA subsidise the cost for you to park for free?

Also councils are becoming more like a business more than ever, do you think that businesses who own land would happily let anybody park for free when they could charge or even sell off it's land. I see no reason why non car owners should subsidise parking for car owners.
The previous government instructed councils to make money form assets or sell them on.

Not so many decades ago before supermarkets were the retail kings most high streets were made up of independent retailers who often also lived in the shop premises. Customers want good value for money and convenience to suit a modern lifestyle, not to spend most of the day trudging from shop to shop with lots of bags in their hands. The real issue now is the cost of leasing a high street unit. Whilst commercial property prices have risen alot of the decades, so the cost of the lease increases to reflect that. Margins for smaller retailers have also been squeezed to compound this problem.

Worth remembering that only a century ago alot of shops were houses back then, in fact in our own small town they have finally woken up to this and are allowing empty shops to become residential property again. After all if there are that many shops empty there isn't a demand.

I read up until

Councils sell us this notion that cars parked everywhere is a problem

Then I realised that you have an axe to grind. Cars parked all over the place ARE a problem. I witnessed a car pull up on a pavement in front of me the other day. The passenger opened the door and people trying to walk along the pavement had to go around the car onto a busy road. One of them pusshing a child in a buggy.
Car drivers can be inconsiderate and stupid, or both and parking laws are clear. If you struggle to understand them or find it difficult to avoid parking tickets then you get what you deserve.
Parking in major cities and towns is not an issue as long as you are not a half witt.

Read this book - it's pretty depressing though.

http://www.paulkingsnorth.net/realengland.html

Interesting that Zac Goldsmith endorses it - I look forward to hearing the Tory governments plans to reduce the unfair power of huge supermarkets etc. 😆

Bradford has been the ultimate ghost town for probably 10-15 years now.

It used to be more popular as a shopping centre than Leeds, however then Leeds council got their act together, smartened the place up, got inward investment and now Leeds thrieves.

Bradford mean while has deteriorated in to a dark hole with boarded up shops etc etc

Newcastle town centre are phenomenal (especially Eldon Square). Out of town at the Metro Centre are cheaper, free parking etc. etc. - it's kinda a no-brainer for accountants.

Soon Newcastle will jsut be full of coffee shops.

Yet they've extended and filled Eldon Square, you can hardly call Newcastle a ghost town.

I suppose [s]all the lefties[/s] anyone with a brain and the ability to read anything other than the Daily Mail will tear my argument apart in their usual manner.

Fixed it for you

Penrith is in serious danger of becoming the same. They are desperate to put the "new squares" development in with a big Sainsburys (we already have a Morrisons, Co-op, Somerfield, Aldi and Booths (on the way)) and many other shops including Next, River Island Costas etc are all rumoured to be interested in the new squares. This is going right on the edge of town (in-between town and the leisure centre if you know Penrith at all). My thought was what about all of the empty shops already in town? Why not fill them so that we are not stuck with just charity shops banks, and a Dorothy Perkins/Burtons rather than keeping the rents so high that small businesses can't afford to stay open. Examples being two local lasses had two different shops selling ladies clothes. Once their leases were up they didn't carry on as they knew they wouldn't be able to compete with bloody Next and RI.

I'm not for the development!!!!

I think that's the [s]longest post[/s] biggest load of drivel I have ever seen on here.

Fixed that as well

Yet they've extended and filled Eldon Square, you can hardly call Newcastle a ghost town.

I know, don't get me wrong, the extension to Eldon Square is nice and it's still busy-ish but outside of Eldon things seem to be drying up and to be honest a few shops beside the exit to M&S seem to change hands on almost a weekly basis, it's almost as if everyone has abandoned one end of the shopping centre to move into the shiney new bit.

work in tescos drink in wetherspoons eat in mcdonalds. modern british life.

Well I cant afford lenor any more, so my shirts are all itchy and I have to walk everywhere slowly, with my arms held out in front of me to avoid chafing.

Bradford has been the ultimate ghost town for probably 10-15 years now.

It used to be more popular as a shopping centre than Leeds, however then Leeds council got their act together, smartened the place up, got inward investment and now Leeds thrieves.

Bradford mean while has deteriorated in to a dark hole with boarded up shops etc etc

I know, don't get me wrong, the extension to Eldon Square is nice and it's still busy-ish but outside of Eldon things seem to be drying up and to be honest

It's never been the same since they got rid of the giant pencils.

shitthebed. I'll just go up the mountains and ride my bike 'till it's all over.

Where do they come from?

The dark depths of Wythenshawe. It's like something out a Conrad novel in there....

A couple of years ago labour changed the law so that business rates had to be paid on empty properties. (One of the few good laws they brought in). This now needs to be extended to all commercial properties (at the moment it's only those over a certain size. It also needs to be amended so it applied to land designated for commercial use (To stop unscruplous landlords knocking down buildings to stop paying rates.) This will result in a drastic reduction in rent and allow small independant businesses the chance to fill up the town centres again.

It's nowt to do with parking, although if you look at cities like Bath who run a really good park and ride there are good commercial solutions to city centre parking.

There's easy parking in Wythenshawe too. Now I'm really confused

+1 Spongebob

Might not agree with all of your analysis/findings/conclusions but I think you're not wrong on the whole.

Also TJ, it is planning based too.

Many town centre businesses just have got it so wrong. Decades have past since we all lived in the town we worked in, walked to work and nipped to the post office/grocers/bank in our lunch hours. If I'm out and about with work, by the time I get back all the town centre shops have closed.

On the rare occasions that the opportunity arises, I like wandering around town, but for most of my shopping (groceries) the big boys give me the convenience I want. Frankly, if I'm buying 8 pints of milk and a crate of lager I'm hardly going to be taking the bike or walking, so free and easy parking matters. The fact I can buy a mountain bike mag and a CD whilst I'm buying my bread and milk is even better.

I don't want to see my town centre boarded up, but times change. If a retailer is stuck in the old 1950's business model and wonders why he is not making any money then I'm afraid my sympathy only goes so far. And as for shops that insist on closing for lunch, what the hoody bell do they expect?!

I do the vast majority of my shopping online now so I am happy with huge distribution centres and food delivered to my door.

BURN THE TOWN CENTRES

won't you take me to funky town?

working at an asda that has pretty much ALWAYS been here, at least since I was a kid wanting an atari vcs. Since walmart have taken over, it has become more and more a corporate robot. The old school staff are pretty disenchanted, There is a "policy" to create some sort of "community". but it's just a load of corporate bollocks. The staff are zombified, and so are the costomers.

more restaurants, takeaways and pubs please 😀

I live in Accrington. The centre is dead compared to how it used to be, despite town-wide free parking. The problem (here at least) isn't parking, it's being sh!t.

It's a rolling snowball though. People start doing their weekly shop at supermarkets, so there's less cash in the high street; shops go out of business, so fewer people shop there, so there's less cash... it becomes self-fulfilling, on and on it goes till there's no-one left bar Pound Shops and the Bookies.

coming from dunstable and being a member of the dont let dunstable die group on facebook, the overwhelming complaint from business owners is the rents on shops
in the case of the main shopping centre in dunstable its owned by an offshore consortium based in the channel islands, as such they couldnt give a monkeys about the town itself and have steadfastly refused to lower rents

the town itslef isnt helped by an aldi, sainsburys and tesco the latter 2 being well away from the town centre

the facebook group is a good thing the community rallying around getting unused shops to display local school artwork etc

its like dave bigsociety (but was started before dave came up with the idea)

the trouble is without laws like gearfreaks talking about that channel island consortium is never going to do anything to help the town

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+1 Spongebob.

If paid parking is a problem, how come all the car parks round here are full? If they were free they'd still be full, but with cars belonging to the people who work in the town centre.

I'd love it if the Council announced they were going to make all their car parks free for a week; there'd be mass calls to charge again. Same if they announced a week long free for all on parking.

I also believe that studies have show that those arriving on public transport spend more than those arriving by car.

If we had some intelligent thinking

Indeed spongebob, you're posting on here to get some intelligent thinking done for you?

No. Social housing effectively immobilises a fair proportion of the population.

No. The high price of housing in the private sector does that.

The simple fact is when you allow out of town shopping centres to be built and actively encourage car ownership, the result is some town centres die. You also have to factor in the type of employment in that particular area. As an example, I travel through a number of towns in the south where niche shops can be supported by the population due to the customers wealth, so these shops including high street butchers, greengrocers etc, can live side by side with the supermarkets. (The super markets have spotted this and are now plastering the high streets with metro stores)

But other towns in parts of the country where industry has been closed down or jobs are scarce thus depriving customers of wealth, cannot support such shops and the supermarkets take over.

But why bother going to the high street when you can get your weekly shop from a supermarket which sells nearly everything and as you drive out, fill your car up with petrol from the supermarkets own petrol station?

The money you spend casts a vote for the world you want to live in. Dunno who said that.

El-bent, I bother to shop locally because the fruit and veg is fresh and if I want a ripe pear, I don't have to wait 3 weeks. The butcher knows me by name. The guy in the paint shop once drove my purchase's up to our house, 'cos we live at the top of a hill, all these things make a difference.

Our village has a fantastic scheme, whereby the local shopper can get a card stamped by the shop owner, when the card is full you pop it into a box and every month there is a £100 cash prize draw. To complete the card you need to visit at least 8 different shops, with the card holder shop giving a free stamp on collection of card.

The shops have also been giving away free shopper bags and will be holding a food and drink festival this weekend.

clareymorris - I agree with you.

I was disappointed in Kendal last week to find only one butcher and fruit/veg shop. Luckily there were some decent one's in Ambleside.

It's such a shame we've moved away from the continental Euro approach to shopping and to hateful Yank habits.

Just been to Majorca - everyone buys bread from a bakery, etc. Over here we have killed too many towns for the sake of "convenience" and sh1te tasting food.

Some of us probably work in town centres and can do lots of little top-up shops at the local butcher/bakers/candlestick makers because it is convenient. For the rest of us it is convenient to stop at a big supermarket on the way home from work and do a "big shop". For that we need a car and easy parking.

We all like convenience, but for many of us town centre shopping - and the ludicrously out-dated opening times - is simply too inconvenient no matter how good the pears taste.

Holyhead has been dying for years really despite attempts to get people to go there such as a big metal bridge from the port over the busy road. From what I can see the centre is becoming more residential - nothing worse than boarded up shops.

I bother to shop locally because the fruit and veg is fresh and if I want a ripe pear, I don't have to wait 3 weeks.

A lot of people can't be bothered though. A huge social revolution swept through this country in the 80's that changed how we do a lot of things, one of those thing was how we work and how much we work. Everything else we do has to be shoe horned in around that and since time is now off the essence to people, Supermarkets offer that one shop stop convenience.

We can lament the passing of some high streets and some of the old high street names, but our lack of effort in believing that some things are worth saving has caused this and continues to this day.(you can also blame internet shopping as well.)

Did anyone see that telly programme a couple of weeks ago about food wastage?
The farmers were getting rid of thousands of perfectly good lettuce because they weren't the correct shape for the supermarkets. The eggs were too small because the British housewife has been brainwashed into buying eggs which are brown, perfectly oval and large. The strawberries had to be 2.5 - 3 c.m in diametre. the worlds gone mad.

When all the oil's run out and we only have bicycles, we'll all lament the loss of the butcher, baker and fruit shop.

Mimi rant over.

Mimi rant over.

I agree with you, Mimi.

I didn't bother reading after the predictable Daily Fail style start.

II think TJ and Spongebob are both right.. It's planning and parking.

"Bath who run a really good park and ride"

Hmm. If I'm alone it's cheaper, but slower, to use the P&R. Otherwise it's cheaper (and quicker) to drive-in and park.

The eggs were too small...

I didn't get that bit - whilst the average housewife might not want them there are many other egg users - e.g. cake producers - who would like them at a nice price.

I tend to agree with Parking/Planning comments, However I think maybe you are looking at the problem to closely. Personally I think the real issue is a complete inabilty to think longer term. As a nation we seem to be thinking on a shorter and shorter term basis.

Im not sure how you change it - Politicions seem concerned only with their term in office, As soon as companies become succesful they get floated at which point the directors focus is mainly the next set of results.

China on the other hand, seems exceptionally good at playing the long game, Appears to be using the recession to invest/takeover Greek ports, building infrastruture in Africa, new rail link to Mid-east.. blah blah

*remembers this is cycling forum and shuts up*

if you don't like the way councils run things... get yourself elected as a councillor and change it! I did!

Admirable jj55

I very much doubt Id get elected! Everyone seems to want results now without allowing time to implement strategies... hence my concern :s

loco motive understandable comment but if we all stood back & worried about what others thought and waited for [i]them[/i] to do something nothing would get done

Here are words that have inspired me.

People are unreasonable, illogical and self-centred,
Love them anyway.
If you do good, people will accuse you of selfish, ulterior motives,
Do good anyway.
If you are successful, you win false friends and true enemies,
Succeed anyway.
The good you do will be forgotten tomorrow,
Do good anyway.
Honesty and frankness make you vulnerable,
Be honest and frank anyway.
What you spend years building may be destroyed overnight,
Build anyway.
People really need help but may attack if you help them,
Help people anyway.
Give the world the best you have and you'll get kicked in the teeth,
Give the world the best you've got anyway.

I hate to bang on ( honest!) but really it is a planning issue - the netherlands refused planning for out of town shopping - with the result their town centres still have the butcher the baker and the candlestickmaker

We as a country have been too in thrall to big business who prefer huge out of town malls for economies of scale. In the Netherlands the social aspects have been much more important hence following policies to keep towns centres and diversity I shopping alive.

Parking and car ownership is far more expensive than here and parking in towns is impossible. However the town centres thrive - why - because there is no megastore outside the town centre sucking life out of it.

I agree with the planning comments, unfortunatley some towns are owned by the supermarkets who inhabit them. I'm sure we are all aware that some of the biggest land owners in the UK are Tesco's Asda etc etc and they exploit the planning laws.
I live away from the towncentre (thank god) of Gateshead, for the last 10 years the council have been going to pull down a carpark, 60's concrete monstrosity famous for Get Carter 40 bloody years ago, however the council have sat on their hands whilst Tesco decide what they are going to do. The redevelopment of the town centre is being managed by Spenhill and they are 'working with'/leading by the hand the council into getting what they want from the town centre for their client Tesco (Spenhill are the development arm of Tesco)
Every year at the council elections the same old lines get trotted out by labour councillors, 'look what we've done on the quayside, look at the Angel of the North'..yeah that's fine thanks but the towncentre looks like Basra on a bad day.

JJ - nice words, how do you find being a councillor? I'm considering running at the next election as I'm fed up with the lack of vision from our local council. Did you run for a party or independent? Can you actually make a difference, or are you totally restricted by red tape?

"It's never been the same since they got rid of the giant pencils. "

Drac - will we be saying the same about the concrete lego people around the Haymarket in a few years time?!

I also believe that studies have show that those arriving on public transport spend more than those arriving by car.

White101 - I know Tescos have run rings round the Gateshead council. They've done the same in Sunderland too on the old Vaux Brewery site. Can't remember how many years that's been closed whilst Tescos have tried to wendle there way in despite numerous rejections. Good to see the old car park in Gateshead is coming down now, maybe it'll start the ball rolling.

If there's one thing movies have taught us, it's that the zombies will head to the out of town malls.

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If there's one thing movies have taught us, it's that the zombies will head to the out of town malls.

That's cos that'll be where most people will head cos you can find everything you need in a secure environment...