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If we lived in Texas, you or I could go out today and buy one of these in Walmart
Or one of any other states.
The functioning of the gun, in this case, is almost irrelevant. It doesn't matter if it's a semi-auto or not because it looks like what the army has. I hate "black" guns for exactly that reason, it's the fetishisation of the object rather than than any utility it provides.
Squirrelking – Nebraska, she was pretty clear it was a machine gun....
...I think the machine gun possibly belonged to the gun range in a pay-to-play format.
Ah okay that makes sense (from a logistical point), I thought it was a case of 'shoots AR15 which looks like an automatic so must be a machine gun'. It does seem a bit nuts tbh but then my school had it's own L86A1 LSW for the cadets but that was heavily restricted and to my knowledge never routinely (if at all) fired live ammo. Still, there is a world of difference between a 9 year old and a 15+ year old firing blank ammo.
And a lot of countries with widespread gun ownership don’t have this problem.
Indeed.
Please don't think for a second I'm not an advocate for gun control, far from it. But there is a world of difference between responsible ownership and what we see in the US.
Had a discussion with mini-a11ys (7 and 9 yrs) at breakfast this morning after they heard it on the radio news. Thankfully they seem to understand this is a rare occurance but asked the very relevant question of why are there so many guns in America. I still don't really know the proper answer to that myself.
Brought back memories of Dunblane to me, being fairly local. Big hugs before they went off to school.
I spent 2 months working in Texas some 20 years ago (pre 9/11), on a day off I went to a huge general store that was very quiet and shop assistants were trying to sell me some huge automatic rifle. I bought cowboy boots instead. Just seemed so easy. Scary.
I hate “black” guns for exactly that reason, it’s the fetishisation of the object rather than than any utility it provides.
Maybe that's the answer.
You can have any gun you want. Open carry only. But by law it has to be either bright pink or rainbow-coloured.
And a lot of countries with widespread gun ownership don’t have this problem.
Which ones? This is often said, but I don't think many countries have gun laws as lax as the US. Switzerland is one that of often erroneously mentioned, but gun laws are much stricter there. They have the same number of households with guns, but many less guns. They have to obtain a permit to buy a gun (which the selling shop has no involvement in). They are not allowed to store ammo with the guns, and gun storage is policed. Most gun owners are trained as reservists in the army. They can have their guns taken away due to criminal activity or mental health issues.
Which ones? This is often said, but I don’t think many countries have gun laws as lax as the US. Switzerland is one that of often erroneously mentioned, but gun laws are much stricter there.
You are conflating gun laws with gun ownership.
Proper gun laws - and wider social/health policies - can allow greater responsible gun ownership. But let's be honest, no one needs an Armalite at home
Switzerland is one that of often erroneously mentioned
my understanding is that while their murder and suicides rates are similar in number to other western European countries, there's often a gun involved. It seems to be that if people can get hold of them, they use them.
Most Americans I've met (from both sides of the gun divide) think their gun laws are bad, or certainly need reform. They often say that the issue is that the gun lobby need to be bought along, and they (the gun lobby) fear that any control will just be the excuse to beget more control, so they reject everything, even sensible measures that by any standard should be unremarkable to implement.
But, lots of the Americans I've met also say that the ability to individually own weaponry is a right that should be maintained, otherwise you change fundamentally the nature of being American, and more importantly the balance of power between govt and it's people, even if that's just hypothetical
Often in Switzerland you get to keep your army pistol if you want but all my pals over there handed theirs back. I never saw a gun openly carried there in 5 years living there. 2 months in Dallas I saw ordinary people carrying them daily.
You can have any gun you want. Open carry only. But by law it has to be either bright pink or rainbow-coloured.
Dunno if you're being flippant or misunderstanding, 'black' guns are military style guns, something we (as a country) seem to have grown out of with the passing of the Sussex Armouries Jackal Hi Power.
You are conflating gun laws with gun ownership.
I would say they are linked.
However which countries have similar levels of gun ownership and don't have problems?
The swiss has the largerst gun ownership rates in Europe, but still has about a quarter of the number of guns as the US. And still, I think, has a bigger gun crime/suicide rate than the rest of Europe, even with stricter gun laws. So availability does look to be a big part of the problem.
Something to give a sense of scale
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country
Since lots od child deaths are from guns in the home belonging to the homeowner, I asked an american if they should make it illegal to leave a loaded pistol in the same room as children, unsupervised. He called me a communist. There isn't really anywhere you can go from there eh
However which countries have similar levels of gun ownership and don’t have problems?
Nowhere has similar levels of gun ownership, not even close. And nowhere that allows a significant level of private gun ownership 'doesn't have problems'. But when I think about members of the public walking about with guns then both Crete and Israel spring to mind, and I can't recall the last time I heard about school massacres/mass shootings in general in those countries.
The comments in the US media has the republican voters blaming the democrats, and the democrat voters blaming the republicans.
So nothing will change while they are unable to accept their own responsibilities and look to solve the problem for what it is.
As long as there is someone to lay blame against, American voters seem happy for a status quo to exist.
Nowhere has similar levels of gun ownership, not even close.
Behind the US it's traditionally Yemen and Finland that are mentioned with pretty similarly relaxed gun laws. Finland is an huge outlier for most of the rest of Europe, but the difference is that while similar percentages of households own a rifle (about 35-36%) Handgun ownership is very different though; 22% in the US to just 6% in Finland, and something like 80% of household gun violence in the US is handguns. Canada's profile of gun ownership is also pretty similar to the US; my FIL for instance has two of three handguns locked away in the basement and is by no means a raving People's Party member.
I think the other thing that you have to bear in mind, is that the US is a continental sized country. There's nowhere else really like it. some parts of the US have a murder rate similar to Europe, and these are states with population of similar sizes, density, income and so on that have lower gun deaths than Finland. It's not a blanket issue.
Plus of course there's the horrible racism baked into it. Conceal carry laws were first enacted to make sure black people couldn't hide fire-arms, the ban on military style weaponry earlier in the century was again to curb the rise of organisations like the Panthers having access to weapons. The vast vast majority of gun death (especially handgun death) is young black inner city kids... As long as the US has a racism issue, they're going to continue to have a gun-death issue.
Dunno if you’re being flippant or misunderstanding, ‘black’ guns are military style guns, something we (as a country) seem to have grown out of with the passing of the Sussex Armouries Jackal Hi Power.
The latter, I've never heard that term before. I thought you meant "guns that look cool."
The vast vast majority of gun death (especially handgun death) is young black inner city kids… As long as the US has a racism issue, they’re going to continue to have a gun-death issue.
As above, the vast majority of gun death is suicide. If your statistic is correct (source please) then the question isn't one of race-related violence but rather why "young black inner city kids" want to take their own lives.
Or did you mean the majority of gun-related homicides? That being the case, are they race-related or gang-related?
I thought you meant “guns that look cool.”
Well, I suppose depending on mindset you're still right!
That being the case, are they race-related or gang-related?
Is there necessarily a difference?
Have we had the now traditional call for teachers to be armed yet?
**** it! Arm the kids whilst they’re at it. Surely having moar guns than the bad guy (or more likely a person with serious mental health issues but no access to free/adequate healthcare) is the way forward. Pets, can they make guns for pets? Just to be safe.
I hope that as this generation affected by the horrors of school shooting ages and takes control they will force change. Sadly I can’t see it happening though.
Age adjusted rates of firearm homicide
I think black men are over represented in all deaths everything from suicide to accidental discharge to homicide. I think young black men in urban and rural areas are taking their own lives and those of the men around them.
race-related or gang-related?
I don't know whether it's gang related. I would think a proportion of it is.
You can have any gun you want. Open carry only. But by law it has to be either bright pink or rainbow-coloured.
as it happens, it is illegal in some usa states to have a real gun that looks like a toy, or a toy gun that looks real.
in a country where every criminal has a gun, and banning guns won’t change that situation, i can understand why normal folk would want to own a gun to defend themselves if someone breaks into their home.
it is a very crazy situation.
By now who genuinely GAF?
Has anyone rolled out the Jim Jeffreries gun sketch yet?
Anyone else picked up on the father of one of the victims who posted a picture of himself with his daughter, posting the word "Why?", all the while wearing a t-shirt with the slogan "* * ** your gun free zone"
Think he's part of the problem?
Anyone claiming they're a responsible gun owner are part of the problem... Normalising guns is part of the problem.
Let em get on with it and wallow on their own stupidity.
Let em get on with it and wallow on their own stupidity.
Classy. In case you haven't picked up on previous comments most people in the US do not own guns and most would like tighter gun controls.
The problem isn't necessarily public opinion but the deeply flawed democratic process which is massively influenced by the power of money.
no-one tells us what to do
This argument always annoys me. The folk using it have no qualms telling others what to do. Whether it is screaming at kids to not wear masks during a pandemic, or telling women that they do not have a choice over their own bodies.
So children will continue to die needlessly for their right to be massive hypocrites. So f*****g depressing.
Let em get on with it and wallow on their own stupidity.
I'd be tempted to agree if the victims were other gun-toting imbeciles, but this guy shut himself in a classroom with a load of primary school kids for an hour. All 21 killed were in that room. If that doesn't break your heart..... a classroom of 9 and 10 year olds waiting to die. It's their own fault let them get on with it just doesn't come close.
The problem isn’t necessarily public opinion but the deeply flawed democratic process
As in most countries. You could say the same about the UK. We have probably the most useless and laughable government I have ever seen so guess we are also wallowing in our own stupidity?
This can never be fixed due to the sheer quantity of guns and ammunition in private hands in the US. No one knows who is 'packing' and they never will.
The US is totally hooked on guns - willingly or out of fear. If the government were to make serious moves, the NRA would start collating ammo and stirring up the small, but big enough pool of nutters they know they harbour.
It is too normalised.
guess we are also wallowing in our own stupidity?
So you don't agree that most Americans don't own guns and that most would like to see stricter gun controls?
The problem is their "stupidity"?
Edit : I'll remind you that voters last election voted for a US president who believes in greater gun controls. It doesn't mean that they will get it though of course.
By greater gun controls you're talking about wait times and not selling assault weapons. Not exactly transformative is it.
There is no will to change, their green party was the only party that had any significant steps towards fixing the problem, they got 0.3% of the vote
Not exactly transformative is it.
It would seriously damage the right to keep and bear arms according to some:
https://www.heritage.org/firearms/heritage-explains/bidens-gun-control-agenda
I don't know why you think banning the sale of assault weapons wouldn't have a significant impact on mass shootings.
Mass shooting grab the headlines, but in terms of the overall impact; they're not the issue. The story of "crazy man with an assault rifle" highlights the problem with guns in the states, but let's not forget that mass shootings like this have happened all over the world from Norway, to New Zealand and everywhere in between. The legislative difficulties of the second amendment is pretty much the sole reason why it's only in the states that they happen more than once. (excepting some countries like Afghanistan and Nigeria that have their own issues)
but the deeply flawed democratic process
@ernie is bang on the money here, Right wing terrorism is the fastest growing threat in the states, those people are being driven by increasingly extreme voices in podcasts, streaming and message boards and are influencing the Republican party more and more. That is turn is driving people to turn away from politics as a way to solve their issues. If power (or stopping the other party from having it) becomes the point rather than solving societies issues, then sadly Americans will solve their own issues with what comes to hand, and that's a gun in too many cases.
EDIT: If you want to know more about why mass shootings happen - Roots of Evil is a good text to start with there's also a really good article by Aliza Luft are really worth your time.
Thanks @nickc, that Aliza Luft article is fascinating (the Roots of Evil one requires purchase / subscription).
It seems that a bunch of armed police officers waited in the hall while the perp slaughtered the children and two teachers who tried to protect them, believing that the door was locked, and waited until firing stopped. They were afraid to enter in case any of them got shot themselves.
This, I think, is appropriate:
It seems a common ploy in recent mass shootings to change the narrative away from gun legislation to blaming the first responders for any perceived mistakes.
Yep, but this one's a bit different- partly because the first responders really have acted incredibly poorly, and their apologists are lining up to say things like "yeah but they might have got shot!" but also because it so completely attacks the "good guy with a gun" horseshit that the gun lobby usually comes out with.
I don't think this by itself will change things but I think it's doing a lot to change the overall direction. The NRA show combines incredibly with that, it's helping to push the unrependant gun fetishists way off to themselves and to make the politicians they own look worse than usual. Then enter Trump to do a little dance.
It seems a common ploy in recent mass shootings to change the narrative away from gun legislation to blaming the first responders for any perceived mistakes.
Definitely this - couldn't possibly be a problem with gun laws.
I think it's too easy to prejudge before we have all the facts - no idea what the planned response was meant to be for a gunman in a room full of kids for a local sheriffs department. Go in all guns blazing and lose half your squad before you get in the door? Go in and he blows up the room? Go in all guns blazing and half the kids turn out to be hit by friendly fire?
I've no Police or military experience, but I'm guessing these things don't play out like they do in movies.
But it avoids the uncomfortable truth that restricting access to stupidly powerful weaponry might have helped more than redneck deputies kicking a door in.
My understanding is local sherrif / deputies are actually rather poorly trained - 16 weeks training IIRC compared to european cops who spend years training
EDIT: If you want to know more about why mass shootings happen
Is it more complicated than "you give a country easy access to high-powered weaponry, and in any culture statistically you're always going to get a few psychopaths"?
Is it more complicated than
Slightly, yes.
It seems a common ploy in recent mass shootings to change the narrative away from gun legislation
There's a NRA report which pretty much does this (finds every conceivable solution to mass school shootings short of making it harder to obtain a gun) Mostly it was full of the sorts of things you'd expect; give teachers guns, employ security etc etc, but the best one was giving schools just one door in and out...Listen out for the Republicans on that one, Ted Cruz has already started using it. - The report, unsurprisingly, doesn't say what happens if there;s a fire...but y'know can't think of everything.
This one really does stick out a bit for me, the US have a lot of shootings, we all know that, but this 18 year old bought 2 AR-15s, nearly 2000 rounds of ammunition, had 60 magazines, body armour and so on, and this didn't set off any alarm bells, all within a week of legally turning 18 to be able to buy guns and ammunition.
All we'll see in the coming weeks is the usual talk shops from either side, then the usual stalemate.
Because huge amounts of this sort of weaponry is bought at gun shows not through shops and are "private sales". Which is how and why folks can get hold of loads of stuff, and don't have to jump through hoops like background checks, and why there's no single database of who's got what, and why polling on gun legislation have support for things like background checks on private sales, and so on.