[Closed] Why is the urban speed limit not 20MPH by default?

Dunno!

Speed limits on Britain’s urban roads are 60% higher than Europe. (30 mph compared to 18.6 mph)

Seems to be 50km/h here in Germany most of the time, or 30mph.

Well the local MPs canvassed us about changing our area to a 20mph limit.

We suggested that first they might want to enforce the 30mph limit a bit more effectively first. I reckon well over half of the motorists are doing more than 30, and a good proportion are nearer 50. (typical victorian sidestreet, parking both sides, not enough room for 2 cars to pass side by side).

Heard nothing from them since then.

[i]Britain has the highest percentage of pedestrian road fatalities in Europe 22.5%[/i] of....?

sounds good to me.

(both 20mph and actually enforcing it)

In Portsmouth the 20mph limit on all residential roads has reduced casualties by 22%.

Surely that proves speed limits should be reduced even further ?

How about 10 or 15mph ?

Although I reckon that a 5mph speed limit would most likely reduce casualties by 100%

Let's go for that !

the car is king look at folk signing petitions to lower fuel prices you just cannot mess with drivers in a democracy as every one owns one- so many lost votes- and they view any other road user as an impediment to their progress. Dont slow them down etc
It is clearly a good idea- would make parts of my commute slower though

It's also 50 in Canada, molgrips, but I would argue that German drivers (at least in many parts of the country) are not trying to navigate the same types of roads that we have to here in Britain, and that even when they are, they are far, far more pedestrian-and-other-road-users-conscious than British drivers.

Sometimes I struggle with comparing Britain (one country) against Europe ( a continent). But, that said, I find the sense of travelling more slowly compelling.

I recall the outcry a year or two back at the parents who encouraged their primary school aged kids to cycle to school in London.

What we need is a...

...critical mass 😉

In 2011, the UK had the safest roads in the world.

In 2011, the UK had the safest roads in the world.

Safest for who?

ourkidsam - Member
Britain has the highest percentage of pedestrian road fatalities in Europe 22.5% of....?

I'm guessing they mean that 22.5% of road traffic accidents involving a pedestrian result in a fatality (though intuitively this seems high to me?). i.e. our accidents are more likely to be lethal than European accidents - presumably because of the greater speed involved.

Safest for who?

Specifics shmecifics.

our accidents are more likely to be lethal than European accidents - presumably beacise of the greater speed involved.

[img] [/img]

They mean that 22.5% of fatalities on British roads are pedestrians.

Yes, but you dont strive to be the best, you strive to avoid killing anyone.

I'd vote for a 60mph limit on the motorway while we're at it.

Speed limits on Britain’s urban roads are 60% higher than Europe. (30 mph compared to 18.6 mph)

Why that comment when it is very clearly false ?

Britain has the lowest urban speed limit in Europe.

http://www.europe.org/speedlimits.html

I'm fresh from a Speed Awareness Course and brimming with statistics. C'mon...hit me!! (but not with a car)

In 2011, the UK had the safest roads in the world

Britain has the highest percentage of pedestrian road fatalities in Europe 22.5%. (EU European Road Safety Observatory)

Speed limits on Britain’s urban roads are 60% higher than Europe. (30 mph compared to 18.6 mph)

Not in the European countries i've been to.

Lowering urban and residential speed limits to 20 mph has been found to increase a urban journeys by just 40 seconds maximum.

Just worked out my normal 'urban' journey and it actually adds 2m55s so they're wrong there too.

Btw. The [url= http://www.abd.org.uk/safest_roads.htm ]UK has the safest roads[/url] in Europe already depending on which sources you choose to look at 😉

How about instead more emphasis on the Green Cross Code and the Cycling Proficiency course?

[img] [/img]

Maybe we need the automotive equivalent of this [b][u][url= http://www.slowbicyclemovement.org/ ]Slow Bicycle Movement[/url][/u][/b].

Too many fat boys would have their little weenies drop off if we reduced the speed limits in urban areas. To them this would be a greater disaster than the current death toll.

20 on "urban" roads, 50 on d00l carrij ways and 60 on mowtah ways.

average speed cameras everywhere.

big spike in the middle of the steering wheel.

having to re-take your test every 5 years.

all cars limited to 60 apart from emergency services and racing cars that cannot be used on public roads.

sorted.

I'm fresh from a Speed Awareness Course and brimming with statistics. C'mon...hit me!! (but not with a car)

Would a Porsche 911 turbo trump a Ferrari Testarossa on top speed?

Just worked out my normal 'urban' journey and it actually adds 2m55s so they're wrong there too

More than half of road deaths and serious injuries occur on roads with 30 mph limits

This statistic is meaningless on its own. We're not told, for example, what percentage of roads are 30mph roads, or what the volume of traffic is like on those roads. If the 30mph roads make up 1% of the total, that's a very different situation to one where 30mph roads make up 99% of total roads.

You can't simply say "half of the accidents occur on a 30mph road" and automatically assume that half of the accidents occur [i]because [/i]it's a 30mph road.

Standing on this statement alone, it's equally valid to suggest raising the limits to 40 would solve the problem.

Britain has the highest percentage of pedestrian road fatalities in Europe

Again, meaningless statement. Percentage of what? Total population? Total road users? And it tells us nothing about cause; do we have an allegedly high rate because we're worse drivers, or because there's more people driving?

Britain has one of the lowest levels of children walking or cycling to school in Europe.

Yeah, they're all in mummy's chelsea tractor.

Speed limits on Britain’s urban roads are 60% higher than Europe

We also drive on the left. And? Does this correlate with anything? We're not told.

British parents consistently cite traffic speed as the main reason why their children are not allowed to cycle or walk to school.

I thought British parents consistently cited fear of nonces as the main reason why their children are not allowed to cycle or walk to school. Where's this study come from? Oh, wait, we're not told. There's a theme here.

Lowering urban and residential speed limits to 20 mph has been found to increase a urban journeys by just 40 seconds maximum.

Depends how far you're driving. Go anywhere near a school at rush hour and you've more chance of spontaneously combusting than you have of getting anywhere near the speed limits, it's hardly surprising that changing the limit has little effect.

Lowering urban and residential speed limits to 20 mph has been found to decrease child pedestrian accidents by up to 70%(Transport Research Laboratory).

What sort of statistic is "up to" 70%? Either it's 70% or it isn't, decreasing it by 0.5% is still "up to" 70%.

In Portsmouth the 20mph limit on all residential roads has reduced casualties by 22%.

Because people are going slower, or because traffic's going elsewhere? Assuming the former, that's the only sensible statement in the entire bunch.

Next.

Not driven in Spain, have you?

No I haven't, Cyprus was scary though. And I wasn't saying this [i]is[/i] the case. Just trying to interprete the statistic. But i got that wrong anyway!

They mean that 22.5% of fatalities on British roads are pedestrians.

This isn't a particularly useful stat for comparing the relative safety of pedestarians around europe. It could just mean that we have safer cars (in terms of driver/passengers safety).

Would a Porsche 911 turbo trump a Ferrari Testarossa on top speed?

It depends.

More than half of road deaths and serious injuries occur on roads with 30 mph limits

This statistic is meaningless on its own. We're not told, for example, what percentage of roads are 30mph roads, or what the volume of traffic is like on those roads. If the 30mph roads make up 1% of the total, that's a very different situation to one where 30mph roads make up 99% of total roads.

If half occur on 30-limit roads, changing that speed limit will affect half the casualties, so it's not meaningless. It's not saying 30mph roads are more dangerous per mile or per journey.

Britain has the highest percentage of pedestrian road fatalities in Europe

Again, meaningless statement. Percentage of what? Total population? Total road users?

Dealt with above. Of all the road deaths, 22.5% were pedestrians.

They mean that 22.5% of fatalities on British roads are pedestrians.

Comparatively, do we have more pedestrians? Or perhaps, safer cars? Fewer people dying in cars in high speed collisions = an increase in the percentage of pedestrian deaths, statistically.

Not that I'm disagreeing or agreeing with the campaign, I'd like to stress. I just like poking holes in bullshit emotive statistics that are designed to mislead.

I'd vote for a 60mph limit on the motorway while we're at it.

Don't see the point in that but fine when busy, indeed I'd have variable speed limits clearly marked, like on M25, up to 90mph but strictly enforced.

D0NK - Member

Just worked out my normal 'urban' journey and it actually adds 2m55s so they're wrong there too

yes but your normal journey @20mph max won't be exactly 10mph slower than it is now will it? You are only travelling at 30 for a small portion of the time, junctions lights crossings etc stop start. The above is saying normally you won't really notice the difference. (tho your perception tells you you're going a lot slower but perception is rubbish)

I occasionally need to give way at the single mini roundabout I cross but that's it, (oh and I usually slow down a little to revel in running over a few kids, knocking off a cyclist or two etc) but otherwise maintain 30 for the entire way. So yes, it is almost a linear 50% extra time.

The point is anyway it's a ridiculous meaningless stat.

It's not saying 30mph roads are more dangerous per mile or per journey.

Which is exactly why it's meaningless, because that's what it *should* be saying. Otherwise there might be more accidents on those roads simply because there's more of them.

ernie_lynch - Member

In Portsmouth the 20mph limit on all residential roads has reduced casualties by 22%.

Surely that proves speed limits should be reduced even further ?

How about 10 or 15mph ?

Although I reckon that a 5mph speed limit would most likely reduce casualties by 100%

Let's go for that !

+1 ernie - it's ridiculous, of course 20mph will result in fewer accidents, as would 10, 5, 2

30mph is plenty slow enough, I hardly ever get to that speed as it is

and just to light the blue touch paper, its about time the motorway limit was increased

A bit of clarification from 20s plenty Retro tho they still don't cite their sources/studies

Also most places will be within a third of a mile of a 30 mph arterial road. Hence the maximum increase in actual car journey time from introducing 20 mph on the residential roads would be 20 seconds at each end of the journey. In reality this would be far less. So 40 seconds is the maximum expected increase in journey times.

and just to light the blue touch paper, its about time the motorway limit was increased

Do you lot never drive anywhere! I would die of bordom going everywhere at 20.

[i]mean that 22.5% of fatalities on British roads are pedestrians.[/i]

Just means that more foreigners die in their vehicles, or maybe we get more tourist who look the wrong way when crossin the road?

Or a thousand other reasons, other than the one you've picked.

I believe the approach some people on here are ultimately advocating has been tried already. It was effective at reducing accidents, though was generally regarded, as car use grew, as slightly labour intensive.

However, with unemployment set to ride to 3 million this year, the present government are considering resurrecting it as a means of keeping the common peasantry to some good use. Both keeping them out of mischief and teaching them their place, and ultimately reducing their numbers

[img] [/img]

Okay, why should be not have 40mph as a default?

Britain has congested tight urban roads - I'd say more so than most other countries. It's busier here than most other countries I'd bet - peds and cars - which will automatically lead to more accidents.

I wonder if you take car/ped density into account if we'd still have such dangerous streets?

I don't think there's any point in lowering the limit to 20 - what we really is enforcement, but what we really desperately urgently need is a sense of responsibility.

Most of our speeding debates have been centred around motorways and open roads - it's very hard to argue for speeding in towns and cities I feel.

I generally stick to 20mph on obviously residential roads like those estate places some people live on.

Isn't there a whacky argument that i cars go slower they actually make traffic flow faster ❓

WIN:WIN 😀

jools182 plus 1
i mean have you tried driving around at 20mph? sod that! i like to get to where i'm going in a reasonable amount of time. and let's not forget how much extra fuel will be used when driving at an even lesser speed thus contributing further to pollution and congestion.
and while were on the subject how many of these pedestrian fatalities are caused by dickheads who don't use the f'ing crossings that are provided or just don't bother to look before crossing?, i'd bet if you take pedestrian stupidity into consideration and didn't class those deaths as speed related the figures would be a lot lower.

D0NK - Member

A bit of clarification from 20s plenty Retro tho they still don't cite their sources/studies

Also most places will be within a third of a mile of a 30 mph arterial road. Hence the maximum increase in actual car journey time from introducing 20 mph on the residential roads would be 20 seconds at each end of the journey. In reality this would be far less. So 40 seconds is the maximum expected increase in journey times.

Yes what they're saying there is that they've completely made up that 'maximum' statistic.