It seems on STW (and arguably in the media at large) that companies making profit is seen as a bad thing. It doesn't matter whether it is Wonga, Tesco or Virgin Trains, if you've made a profit you are bad.
Can someone explain why this is? In my eyes, profit is a good thing, it means a company can grow and hire more people and it also means it can pay more money to employees (be they high or low level).
Ethics & the quality of service provided?
It's not.
Just as benefits isn't.
Unfortunately stupid people on all sides make stupid accusations that all people meeting certain spurious criteria are scum/bad/whatever.
HTH.
Ethics & the quality of service provided?
Maybe, but then when an LBS does that they get shouted out for charging too much and making a profit.
profit is a good thing, it means a company can grow and hire more people and it also means it can pay more money to employees (be they high or low level).
Or it can just mean more money for the shareholders and no inprovement for customers or the people who do the work. As above, ethics and service.
Because it is part of profiteroles. The best sex toys eva!
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Generalising is always overrated. SWIDT?
Maybe, but then when an LBS does that they get shouted out for charging too much and making a profit.
I shout about mine because he charges lots but is also useless. I don't use him anymore.
[url= http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jun/10/truth-richard-branson-virgin-rail-profits ]Virgin Rail Profits[/url]
[url= http://citywire.co.uk/wealth-manager/news/fca-launches-full-investigation-in-tesco-profit-overstatement/a775462 ]Tesco Profits[/url]
[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/11109845/Why-arent-the-British-middle-classes-staging-a-revolution.html ]Private Equity profits[/url]
Sorry, forgot
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/comment/wonga-scandal-politicians-and-regulators-are-ignoring-the-causes-of-this-social-cancer-9770574.html ]Wonga Profits[/url]
Oddly enough Wonga and their ilk are less damaging to the general population than most of the major banks and lenders however they are an easy target. You could make the argument that they provide short term money when no one else can to people who desperately need it and charge an appropiate rate for the risk involved or you could call them glorified loan sharks - Your call.
Secured lenders are far, far worse on the whole.
[i]It seems on STW (and [s]arguably in the media at large[/s] on the BBC ) that companies making profit is seen as a bad thing. It doesn't matter whether it is Wonga, Tesco or Virgin Trains, if you've made a profit you are bad.[/i]
Maybe, but in Tesco's case, I think we all have an issue with Tesco claiming profit they haven't actually made.
[i]Can someone explain why this is? [/i]
Oops, on here you're going to get two answers, which will then descend into [b]BICKERING[/b]! in true STW forum stylee. Enjoy!
[i]In my eyes, profit is a good thing, it means a company can grow and hire more people and it also means it can pay more money to employees (be they high or low level).
[/i]And pay more tax, and pay off share holders, and fund managers who inturn payout pensions.
Wow, it all seems so joined up.....
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Sorry OP, the pre-emptive sarcasm isn't aimed at you.
Carry on.
[i]I shout about mine because he charges lots but is also useless. I don't use him anymore. [/i]
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Profit is inherently immoral, it's a measure of how much you have ripped off your customers.
There is nothing wrong with making a profit. That's how businesses expand and employ more people.
But when organisations privatise profits and then socialise losses that's hardly fair.
When companies use their power to corner a market and eliminate competition then people should rightly take issue with it.
DP
[i]richmtb - Member
DP
[/i]
I think Binners has had too much of that.
charging >4000% APR isnt profit its extortion imho
<insert binners rant here>
The trouble with making a profit is you get taxed.
Virgin Trains profit from public subsidy while delivering falling standards and increasing prices, I think it's pretty reasonable for people to be down on that.
In my eyes, profit is a good thing, it means a company can grow and hire more people and it also means it can pay more money to employees (be they high or low level).
LOL - they make a profit to improve things for other people and give the money away to employees.Brilliant.
IMHO the problem is scale. A small firm with 12 employees making 80 k profit for the hardworking employer then no one will object same company makes 1 million for the owner and folk object
Multinationals making hundred and /or thousands a minute profit and many will be uncomfortable with the extent and size of the profit.
Basically at that point they are just ripping you off and it is a further drift of money from the poor to the wealthy - who owns shares in companies and get the profits ? its not cleaners is it?
Profit is what's left over in an unfair system of exchange.
You pay/give more for something than it is worth.
Some really twisted people seem to think that this sort of thing should be something to aspire to.
Joolsburger, you need better bait!
We make a profit..... I feel bad now...
it also means it can pay more money to employees
I don't think you fully understand what profit is. It's withholding the full value of someone's work. If you start paying people higher wages because you have a surplus then you will very quickly have no profit.
Profit is neither a dirty nor a clean word, it's just a word. There's nothing wrong with making a profit and there's nothing wrong with not making any profit, it just depends on what your objects are.
Making a loss is often not a good idea although again it depends on your objectives - activities which result in financial loss can sometimes be worthwhile.
Unfortunately some extremists have a complete obsession with profit and want to make it out of everything, irrespective of the consequences or the laws of commonsense.
Try buying something on the classifieds then selling it on for a profit. You will rightly be derided. That's my attitude to profit.
Usually for large companies the workers and a good chunk of the General population are shareholders, for those who have a pension or savings in equity based investments.
Claiming the workers/general population own a "good chunk " is misleading if not actually false.
Pension funds held an estimated 4.7% by value at the end of 2012, down from 5.6% in 2010, and significantly lower than the levels seen in recent years.
Insurance companies are 6.2 %
Individuals just over 10%
foreign investors over 50%
UK stock exchange only
http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/pnfc1/share-ownership---share-register-survey-report/2012/stb-share-ownership-2012.html
Even if 15% of the population is a good chunk, it's still a lot less than the percentage of the population that are customers or employees.
My pension fund is invested by about 60% in equities (which isn't too unusual for company and high street funds I believe). I have a couple of Isa's and some share schemes with the company I work for. Also my job and livelihood depends upon the company I work for making juicy profits, as well as my company's customers (who ultimately pay my wages) and the companies that supply my company. So irrespective of what the statistics say, bearing in mind that 89.426% of statistics are completely and utterly meaningless, I hope all these companies continue to make juicy profits, my pension pot grows well, my investments hit the jackpot etc.
If an individual is prepared to invest vast sums of their own personal wealth into a company then why shouldn't they benefit correspondingly if the company thrives? It's their risk, their gamble so good luck to them.
What are the ethics you speak of? Clearly investing in an Indian sweatshop is unethical, but a company doing well and making a good profit through a combination of taking sensible risks, some clever insight into the business world and a smattering of luck is completely and utterly ethical.
So irrespective of what the statistics say
An excellent approach to a debate when the figures supplied by the Office of national statistics counters your claim its like saying
facts MY view does not need facts
89.426% of statistics are completely and utterly meaningless
I think you are confusing your statistics with actual ones.
What a very strange way to approach debate, even on STW.
If an individual is prepared to invest vast sums of their own personal wealth into a company then why shouldn't they benefit correspondingly if the company thrives? It's their risk, their gamble so good luck to them.
No problem with that as long as there is risk involved. The element of risk is missing from things like utilities, public transport and PFI type deals where one R Branson has referred to the "licence to print money" he has with the NW rail service.
The aspiration to continual growth is also misplaced as we are currently finding out.
Nothing wrong with profit, who would start a business without the expectation of making a profit.
It's the obsession with maximising profit that is damaging in my view.
I.e. Huge financial corporation makes £4.5 billion profit in 2012. Hurrah. Healthy share price.
Same corporation makes £4 billion profit in 2013. Wailing, gnashing of teeth, heads must roll, share price drops.
Ridiculous. Maybe I'm naive.
Because people hate to think other people are earning more money than them for doing something less worthy/skilful/easier, businesses profiting just presses the same emotional buttons especially those belonging to people who fail to see the bigger picture and have an insular view of how the world works.
^
nail, head
profit is a dirty word because people (in general) are unwilling to admit their own jealousy of other peoples fiscal situation
That's like saying men (in general)~ are jealous of rapists because they can have sex with anyone they want.
Indeed it is an indication of a number of factors
1. They want to get an emotional reaction
2. They find it easier to attack folk than defend what they think- an indication of both their character and their argument.
3. Because they are avaricious, jealous and envious they think everyone else is.
I am not envious of billionairres am i sad about this and wish to redress it
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TBH Most folk who oppose excessive profit want fairness. Its pretty hard to attack someone who wants a fair world [ or defend the above image] hence we get insults rather than argument.
To me "profit" is a neutral word.
Its how that profit is achieved, and what is done with it, that colours our perception of it.
[i]allthepies - Member
<insert binners rant here> [/i]
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[i]MrSmith - Member
Because people hate to think other people are earning more money than them for doing something less worthy/skilful/easier, businesses profiting just presses the same emotional buttons especially those belonging to people who fail to see the bigger picture and have an insular view of how the world works.[/i]
Very, good.
The alternative is socialism
[i]edward2000 - Member
The alternative is socialism [/i]
Eh? The [i]Alternative[/i] to profit? That's a loss then.
Oh, hang on...
Northwind - Member
Virgin Trains profit from public subsidy while delivering falling standards and increasing prices, I think it's pretty reasonable for people to be down on that.
This^
[quote=edward2000 said]The alternative is socialism
Again you seem to be defending it by attacking the alternative.
[i]Junkyard - lazarus
edward2000 said » The alternative is socialism
Again you seem to be defending it by attacking the alternative.
Will there be enough room under the bridge for both solo and smith? [/i]
And to think, you could have posted something [i]intelligent[/i]?
Ok, may be not.
But I do think Mr Smith has properly summed up you and the other leftites.
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Where's Grum ? I expect he'll be along soon to tell us how he earns less than any of us, which some how entitles him to judge us all as [b]BAD[/b] people.
TFiF
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Edit:
Ha!, sorry Junky, I appear to have out ninja-edited you.
