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Quirrel - MemberHow many drug smugglers in UK jails? I suspect lots.
How many in indo jails slightly less than there was once these are dead, bit I imagine less than the UK.
UK. Population 70million
INDO pop 249 millionWhich policy is working better?
Probably Holland's, or Portugal's - the reasoning behind their barbaric stance on drugs is that around 30 people a day die because of illegal drugs in Indonesia.
History teaches anyone who cares to read it that prohibition doesn't work and has never worked.
Treatment of addicts and education to the dangers of some drugs works, trying to act as a nanny state telling people (who's interests they're supposed to look after, not impose their own) what they can and can't do doesn't.
The prisoners were incredibly stupid to get involved with drug trafficking in Indonesia, although the Death Penalty for it was actually suspended when they committed their crime (I might be out on dates) - but it doesn't excuse the state murder of them.
@mike the chart has little value as you don't know how high the murder rates would be without the death penalty,
The comparison is the states with and the states without and we can see [ well everyone but you obviously] that the two track each other pretty much with the non death penalty states have the fewest murders.What it suggests is that the death penalty has no deterrent affect as shown by the fact you have more murders in states with it. How you spin this is going to be brilliantly funny isn't it. Cant wait.
the various States in the US vary hugely in terms of crime
Do you know what murder rate per 100,000 occupants means 🙄
We know they vary that is why we are comparing them A comparison would not work if they were identical 🙄
Oh Jam I am still not sure 😀
All that sentence says is Mike I dont understand that graph or what it shows.
If you even had a hint of comprehension you would be embarrassed by that statement.
Out of interest what would you consider to be a reasonable comparison then in trying to work out if the death penalty was an effective deterrent if not comparing states with the death penalty and states without the death penalty and their murder rates per 100,000 occupant....go on indulge me.
I'm glad to see the nice types outnumber the nasties by a decent proportion on here.
It takes a special kind of stupid to smuggle drugs from a prosperous country of opportunity where personal development is down to the individual, to a third world country that actively uses the death penalty as punishment for the said activity.
Whether you agree with the penalty or not is a mute point, that was the punishment laid out before them, they took a calculated risk in the name of greed and and personal gain, they lost.
The argument surrounding the use of the death penalty is strangely a separate argument in this case, it is a larger discussion that shouldn't be held in light of a couple of foreigners receiving the punishment they knew they may receive.
We are such a naïve bunch in these prosperous lands, so I wouldn't get outraged when the issue pops up again in the near future.
There's one way of ensuring the death penalty in Indonesia doesn't become news in western lands again, of course that's down to people outside of Indonesia engaging their brains.
I'm not usually interested in 'gory details' but one thing I took from reading about it was the method - they were taken to a jungle clearing to be shot, tied to a cross and 12 police all fired at once - only 3 of them actually had live rounds to ensure no one knew who killed them, I don't want to split hairs - but I believe in the US (where one state has just put firing squad back on the menu) only one of the shooters gets a blank - anyway I assume 3 is 'enough'.
In the end 8 of them were killed that night, so where there 96 Police all huddled in there, or just 12 - did all the victims have to witness their friends being killed one at a time? I believe they all refused blindfolds... it's horrible really.
Once again this comes down to what punishment is really for.
Is it fair to kill someone for making a mistake? When they realise that mistake? Many of our decisions are not made at all rationally. That's why people still commit crimes that have severe penalties.
I think the OP was more interested in why the UK media are now looking at this story from the side of the poor, defenceless smugglers. The general media slant is now one of sympathy for the plight of the executed convicts and their families but there are real victims out there. They are the stupid individuals that consume this junk.
I think two wrongs don't make a right.
mute point
moot point 👿
Well I guess people are up in arms because capital punishment is barbaric - wherever it is used. It's not just Indonesia is it?
But if that is the law in a particular country there are two options.
1. Don't go.
2. Don't smuggle drugs.
I would like some special corner of hell reserved especially for anyone involved in the whole process of getting people hooked on drugs. But I'm an atheist so I know that's a non starter.
But if that is the law in a particular country there are two options.
How about people take a stand for the people that are trapped in these countries, the locals that end up being executed etc. I had hoped the look the other way defense was on the way out.
P-Jay - MemberI'm not usually interested in 'gory details' but one thing I took from reading about it was the method - they were taken to a jungle clearing to be shot, tied to a cross and 12 police all fired at once - only 3 of them actually had live rounds to ensure no one knew who killed them, I don't want to split hairs - but I believe in the US (where one state has just put firing squad back on the menu) only one of the shooters gets a blank - anyway I assume 3 is 'enough'.
The difference between firing blanks and live rounds is distinct. I guess the idea of the possibility of the blank is to make it easier for the executioner to pull the trigger. It "might" be blank.
moot point
And it's far from a moot point. It IS the point.
These are soldiers. They're trained to take orders and to kill, and are particularly selected so that they won't hesitate. But you're right, the difference in 'feel' between a blank and the recoil of a live round would I suspect leave you in no doubt whether you were the killer.
moot point
Indeed, I would like to blame my phones autocorrect but it was simply lost in the flow of the overall shite being written.
You guys think too much then try to show compassion for all the wrong twisted reasons as usual.
I always wonder why there is such a big drug problem in Hong Kong/China 200+ years ago.
Any of you lot have drug pushing ancestors that benefited from those opium pushing good time in China?
🙄
edit: I disagree with the killing in Papua because those are local native people fighting to gain independent like Scotland ... they are Not drug pushing scums.
The reason I am against the death penalty is that miscarriages of justice are then irreversible. I know that imprisoning an innocent person is also irreversible in terms of the time lost, but at least they would still be alive to see their vindication (if it came).
From [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-32533478 ]BBC[/url][b]£500m drugs bust in North Sea 'UK's biggest ever'[/b]
If the above landed I wonder how many parents will have to live in despair all their lives only to see their children lost and damaged in front of their eyes with nothing they can do at all.
If those are pure coke then that £500m will easily get more than double that ...
Imagine they are caught in Indonesia ... 308 or 5.56?
I would go 308.
What else do you want to execute people for chewkw?
Compassion? How about process? The Indonesians set out a route to clemency but they ignored it as the new bloke needs to measure his cock in the international stage. Not as if these blokes had actually found a better path in prison, one of those cases where prison actually seemed to have worked so they executed them. Great example.
the new bloke needs to measure his cock in the international stage.
More on the domestic stage.
bit of both really, I think he wants a metric and imperial measurement
mikewsmith - Member
What else do you want to execute people for chewkw?
This is a straight forward case as they got kilos of drugs.
Others might need to be assessed case by case basis but if they are heinous crimes then 308 it is.
The Indonesians set out a route to clemency but they ignored it as the new bloke needs to measure his cock in the international stage.
He is a nice humble bloke who try to make his country a better place for themselves.
International stage ... ya right ...
I bought some grass in Bali. Between the lad taking the money and the stuff coming back was about the most nervous I have ever been.....
Scary shit.
Yet you still did it. So it isn't a great deterent.
If the incentive is not getting off your box, but a few million quid, then a death penalty or not is not going to deter anyone who is considering it.
But if they want to shoot crims, then why not? It's the law in that country so keep your nose out if you don't like it.
He is a nice humble bloke who try to make his country a better place for themselves.International stage ... ya right ...
A top nice bloke, declared there would be no chance of clemency before even reading the cases (again constitutional obligation for him to do that with an open mind), he needs to make his country a better place, drug smugglers are not his biggest problem. The mass endemic corruption would be a good place to start, the fact that it's better to bribe cops than be arrested (as was suggested on my last visit if you actually make it to the police station you are screwed) sort out the ministries taking a cut of everything and the army too.
As for the international stage it's the 4th most populated country, they are expanding and building to be one of the major regional powers potentially, they are currently building infrastructure with unconditional loans. They are moving up the food chain in SE Asia.
Yes he needs to sort out some internal perception and look strong but he is also making sure he does not give in to any other regional leaders. All at the same time when they pay blood money to get their own citizens off death row.
Yes, there is corruption but that is up to their own people to sort them out. They are trying to change in their own time and suit their own way of living.
All at the same time when they pay blood money to get their own citizens off death row.
Not much different in the enlightened west is it? You get the justice you can afford. Instead of a direct payment to open the door you get a better lawyer in a sharp suit.
If you are poor you are going down. Or in the US the death penalty is immediate depending on the colour of your skin.
Or in the US the death penalty is immediate depending on the colour of your skin.
What era are you living in ? 1970 something ?
Jeez mate
Have you not be reading the news lately?
Its pretty obvious what he is referring to
What era are you living in ? 1970 something
Much of he US is much more backward than you think on these things. Remember, slavery was only banned in mississipi in 2013. It takes generations for the views of the "South" to be diluted to a state of acceptance.
unfitgeezer - Member
Or in the US the death penalty is immediate depending on the colour of your skin.
What era are you living in ? 1970 something ?Jeez mate
Junkyard - lazarus
Have you not be reading the news lately?Its pretty obvious what he is referring to
As far as a lot of US cops are concerned, it's more like the 1960's, it seems. In Baltimore, anyway.
Irrespective of my opinion on the death penalty being both in place, and rigorously enforced, if I was thinking of travelling to any country which takes a really, [i]really[/i] dim view of the possession of any kind of narcotic, I'd make damned sure I had nothing on or with me that could be misinterpreted in any way, like carrying Codine tablets, for example. I understand Saudi Arabia get highly vexed indeed if they find those being carried...
That's the really easy solution to this issue, to not indulge in highly advertised behaviour that will, for certain, cause your death.
Think of it as evolution in action.
Given who black people are treated in th US by police, does Obama still deserve his Nobel Peace Prize?
wanmankylung - MemberGiven who black people are treated in th US by police, does Obama still deserve his Nobel Peace Prize?
What is his Nobel Peace Prize for?
What has he done this time?
😯
I'm pretty liberal by all accounts, and I'm not gonna get drawn into the U.S. debate but my view on the Indonesian thing is the simple underclass motto 'don't do the crime if you can't do the time'
A good friend of mine served 7 years in the notorious Japanese prison system for drugs offences.. they have an abysmal human rights record and the time he spent there was incredibly harsh..
He's a reformed character these days
I'm pretty liberal by all accounts, and I'm not gonna get drawn into the U.S. debate but my view on the Indonesian thing is the simple underclass motto 'don't do the crime if you can't do the time'
Well I didn't expect that from you, Yunki!
In Baltimore, anyway.
Quite an interesting interview re policing in Baltimore here;
[url= http://www.vice.com/read/david-simon-talks-about-where-the-baltimore-police-went-wrong-429?fb_action_ids=10153000363768323&fb_action_types=og.shares ]David Simon[/url]
Isn't the death penalty in the U.S. Proving more expensive than just locking folk up for the remainder of their natural lives?
Genuine question, will try and dig out where I read that.
Edit. Not quite http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/issues/death-penalty/us-death-penalty-facts/death-penalty-cost
Think of it as evolution in action
Dying at the hands of a draconian judicial system is many things but evolution is not one of them.
Not quite
It says it is more expensive
yunki - Member
... but my view on the Indonesian thing is the simple underclass motto 'don't do the crime if you can't do the time'
Most people don't understand that hence they think the world should follow their ways of thinking so got themselves into trouble.
A good friend of mine served 7 years in the notorious Japanese prison system for drugs offences.. they have an abysmal human rights record and the time he spent there was incredibly harsh..
He's a reformed character these days
They have broken him by the sound of it ... 😮
Mike a chart to disprove my full quote would be of instances of reoffending with the death penalty and without.
parkesie why don't you find something that says the death penalty works too.
http://nccadp.org/issues/deterrence/
Yet, according to the N.C. Department of Justice, the state murder rate has declined in the years since executions stopped. Given this fact, there is no credible argument that the death penalty deters crime.In fact, most people on death row committed their crimes in the heat of passion, while under the influence of drugs or alcohol, or while suffering from mental illness. They represent a group that is highly unlikely to make rational decisions based on a fear of future consequences for their actions. The idea that the death penalty has the power to stop murder is naive and clearly proven false by the facts. Studies that have shown the death penalty reduces crime have been discredited by rigorous research.
Mike a chart to disprove my full quote would be of instances of reoffending with the death penalty and without.
In the U.S.
What's the murder rate, and what's the execution rate. How many potential reoffenders are actually removed from the equation.
And that's before you get onto the topic of executing people who haven't committed an offence "worthy" of execution. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/28/death-penalty-study-4-percent-defendants-innocent
Mike a chart to disprove my full quote would be of instances of reoffending with the death penalty and without.
What's a bit worrying is that I'm not sure this is a joke 🙁
We are talking about Heroin right?
They have broken him by the sound of it
naaah... he's literally been re-formed which is a pretty good thing in a lot of ways
He was pretty Ghengis Khan before, he's much more Charlie Chaplin now (and I mean that in the most complimentary of ways)
[i]Or in the US the death penalty is immediate depending on the colour of your skin.
What era are you living in ? 1970 something ?
[/i]
Colour AND wealth are the key dividers.
"Our basic rights are now determined by our wealth or poverty"
I struggle with long sentences but anyone that believes the death penalty is a deterrent is scarily deluded.
If it was a deterrent, why do people continue to commit crimes that are punishable by death?