What is it with frame bags, just aesthetic or is there a functional improvement? Seems to me to be an expensive faff with less space when panniers work well, what am I missing?
Checks calendar. Nope not 2012 anymore
Because panniers are for middle aged tourers on audax bikes or hybrids.
Frame bags are for modish bike packers with sleeve tattoos on gravel bikes.
what am I missing?
Possibly a water bottle if you are using a frame bag.
I use either frame/bar/seat bags or panniers. Depends on the route and terrain.
Inline bags are more aero of course, but on narrow singletrack they are also not going to catch in trees, heather, bushes and rocks. Racks are relatively heavy when you are gram-counting and are more prone to breakage. Fewer and fewer frames come with suitable mounting points for racks - especially so if you look at full-suspension designs, or almost anything in carbon.
Panniers can be easier to pack and (depending on your "bikepacking" bags) easier to remove.
Edit: TJ will be along in a moment to tell you that trailers are the best option. Try not to laugh when he does.
Pannier racks don’t like rough ground, screws work loose, racks and clips break and panniers can even self eject but worst of all the annoying rattling noise they make. I used some small panniers on a 5-day unsupported arctic winter event as I needed extra capacity for food. On the first night around midnight I had to negotiate some snowy forest tracks - I didn’t see a tree stump that I clipped with my pannier, breaking the clips and spending a frustrating 30 mins having to use bare hands and metal tools by torchlight at -20C to bodge a repair with cable ties whilst trying not to drop the screws in the soft snow.
Panniers are almost perfectly designed to put all the weight of your luggage slap bang through your rear wheel whereas frame bags spread it out more evenly?
Velcro straps and bungees vs. plastic clips and metal frames? I remember back in my shop days trying to stock take all the various pannier clips and fittings, ug. Also remember limping back from the Cairngorms with a Blackburn rack held together with gaffer tape 🙄
I've tried variations of most systems at least once, panniers/pannier rack was my least favourite, and I include towing a BoB trailer in that.
Horses for courses though, had no issues touring on road with them 👍
Edit:
TJ will be along in a moment to tell you that trailers are the best option. Try not to laugh when he does.
I don't know about 'best' but trailers ARE fun. I still pine for a BoB of my own 😎
FWIW, bikepackers do use panniers.
This was published in 1982.
For the same reason 650B is better than 26" and your left thumb can't operate a front mech.
Greed.
Depends on the type of terrain/route, panniers not great for:
- tight/narrow singletrack
- rough ground where the can break/shake loose
- Hikeabike sections where you might need to lift/carry the bike
- short trips where you might not need the capacity of panniers
Not a pannier to be seen...
https://taskandpurpose.com/news/army-buffalo-soldiers-biked-across-america/
Both have there attributes.
Panniers
Easy to load. Lots of spaxe esp laptops.
Easy to remove at end of journey or leaving bike
Easy to carry.lods of heavy stuff.e.g Husband and wife camping bike touring....the stronger rider carries more.
Bit more versatile between bikes.
Downsides
Heavy before u even load them. (The pannier otself can be heavy.)
Then add in weight of rack as well.
Panniers very less aero
Panniers shite off road.
Rear weight behind back axle given awful handling on most bikes except the traditional British Touring/ audax type bike!
Catch heel on Pannier if bike not suitable so bike packing bags much more useful on various bikes.
Heavy loads do really ruin handling.if weight behind rear hub! I see some pics and do wonder how bikes handle!
Bike packing bags.
Positives
Aero- a huge huge benefit , weight more evenly distributed as well.
Can ride and use bag and get things out while u ride. Handy at times!
Pack essentials only.as space at a premium for a tour.
Great off road due to weight distribution and possibly security on the bike and also width of load.
But they are actually surprisingly useful volume for a commute.
Downsides.
Time to put on and off.
Expensive
Small bikes more size sensitive to bike packing bags.
Not quick to remove/put back on public transport.
They are addictive!
Mix and match accordingly to your ride!
Pannier racks don’t like rough ground, screws work loose, racks and clips break and panniers can even self eject but worst of all the annoying rattling noise they make.
Which is why Tailfin exists and their products are used by many endurance riders on and off road (admittedly not many using panniers though).
Yeah - we're now seeing a few solutions for putting rack on a bike without mounts; Tailfin, Aeroe, SKS have one now, the one Thule bought. They tend to be a bit spendy but are useful if you don't want to lose access to a dropper seatpost.
Which is why Tailfin exists and their products are used by many endurance riders on and off road (admittedly not many using panniers though).
Just recently watched the GCN video about GB Duro (I think) in which the only Tailfin broke. Just one data point 🙂
Apologies for my spelling above! Phone is awful for typing on!
I actually do like panniers at times!
Still working on custom frame bags for the frame mounts (frame has 30 braze on bosses), but for an overnight off-road ride from Woking to Portsmouth last Jan, was quick just to stick a single little Ortlieb on. Double hook on the bottom and the OMM axle mount rack is super solid. This was just for some food, change of clothes and flask of hot food for breakfast on the train home.
think a mixture is best, depending on route, conditions and what you are carrying. Rack also gives option of dry bag on top rather than a seat post pack, though extra weight. But if your not racing not an issue.
Less aero. 😉
Because the cycling industry tells them not to.
You know how easily led cyclists are. A pro here, a pro there champions this or that, the industry pens a few articles on the benefits as they see them, and before you know it you've spent all your wages, but can hold your head up amongst the in crowd.
Personally, I find my bike more fun to ride when the weight is spread out. I'm happy to sacrifice a bit of capacity for that.
i use panniers.
tried bikepacking bag, dont like em.
I use bike packing bags.
Tried panniers, don't like em ;P
Just recently watched the GCN video about GB Duro (I think) in which the only Tailfin broke. Just one data point 🙂
GBDURO 2020? There were several Tailfins. One broke. They have been used on many other events. I don't know what the overall failure rate has been.
"Bike packing bags.
Positives
Aero- a huge huge benefit"
I really doubt most people bikepack at the speeds required for aerodynamic benefits to kick in. Maybe if you're TT-ing the Tour Divide with clip on aero bars maybe, but not pootling around the UK surely?
For me...
Gravel bike is used for 1-day rides 90% of the time.
Pannier racks are heavy and a PITA to have to repeatedly bolt on and off (don't want the racks left on for the 90%)
I got a frame bag so that on the 1 dayers I can out a waterproof, extra layer, tools, pump, food etc all in there easily, nowt in jersey pockets (SO annoying to have bulky or heavy stuff in the rear pockets).
Still with 2x 750ml bottles on the frame. Frame bag remains on the bike all the time (except for a full bike clean once in a while). And is nicely centred, and out the way.
Front roll-up bar bag for trips to the pool or swim spot 1 day rides wirh towel, cozzie/ wetsuit. For multi dayers the down sleeping bag goes in the same bar bag.
Rear pack - just 10x easier strapping on than bolting pannier racks for a 2 or 3 or more day trip.
Also more flexible in use - 2 of the 3 packs can be used on the MTB if the route is too rough for the drop bar gravel bike (which is at the lighter end of the build spectrum).
I really doubt most people bikepack at the speeds required for aerodynamic benefits to kick in.
Aero becomes dominant force at about 16km an hour.
On a loaded full suss last week, I averaged 13kph, so would definitely have felt the benefit at points.
Because not many bikes have the right mounts for panniers front and rear and since 99% of people try touring won't want to use a specific bike to begin with they buy bags that fit the bike they have. And, they buy the type of bags that they see others using. So the reason bikepacking bags worked for non-trad touring bikes is why they've proliferated.
The majority of bikes being 'race inspired' or minimalised to some extent means that bikepacking bags are the way to make any bike a tourer.
Then again, Tailfin etc have found a market as an answer to the fact that most seatpacks are just not very well-designed for the amount of stuff many riders put in them, or how seatpacks aren't great for either shorter riders (less space between saddle + tyre) or tall riders (weight ends up very high). And there's fork cages for riders who need the space, they're just micro-panniers. It's blurring.
I really doubt most people bikepack at the speeds required for aerodynamic benefits to kick in. Maybe if you’re TT-ing the Tour Divide with clip on aero bars maybe, but not pootling around the UK surely?
TD racers aren't generally using clip-ons for the aero gain anyway and average only ~10mph at the front end. If you're going slowly into a headwind on a windy moorland track the wind speed over the bike might be >20mph so it helps. But it's not the main reason, you don't see many aero-optimised setups outside of the self-supported road races like TransContinental. Having said that I'd need a good reason to use panniers for a road tour Vs bikepacking bags and drag of the panniers is main thing against them (weight being the other, lesser issue). Panniers are more convenient for accessing things but aside from what's on my bars and in a zipped frame bag much of my kit isn't accessed more than once a day anyway.
Panniers very less aero
What's the aveage speed for an overnight bike packing? Can't be more the 12-13mph, you're not gain an aero-advantage with frame bags. I think we can file this one with shaved legs. I don't know why folks are so reluctant to just say, "I prefer frame bags, they look cool" It's almost like they don't want to admit it to themselves.
I don’t know why folks are so reluctant to just say, “I prefer frame bags, they look cool” It’s almost like they don’t want to admit it to themselves.
Cynic : ) when I was focused on racing I would average 10mph on fairly easy off-road and 14-15mph on road. Aero does count when you add wind speed. Doesn't count all the time but when it counts, it really does. But it wasn't the reason for using these bags, it was just another advantage. Stopping less often and not faffing is the biggest advantage.
Seatpacks can actually lower drag and there's some testing (validity tbc) that suggests a bar bag can help airflow too. Panniers or fork cages will add drag but whether you care or notice for pootle touring is another matter.
It's all more about bike and bag compatibility, and racks are creeping into 'bikepacking' anyway.
For me:-
Panniers for commuting (bits of paper and lunch boxes) - easy packing.
Panniers for heavily loaded road touring.
Bikepacking bags for fast and light road trips
Bikepacking bags for off-road trips
The only undecided area would be heavier loaded off-road trips. I've got a 5 day trip later in the summer leading a group of kids off road. They will be using trailers. With the extra kit needed to lead a group and 4 nights food bikepacking bags probably won't cut it...so it might be a Frankenstein mix of pannier and bike packing bags.
What’s the aveage speed for an overnight bike packing? Can’t be more the 12-13mph, you’re not gain an aero-advantage with frame bags.
This seems to be a very common misconception. Go to one of the plethora of aero calculator sites. Yes, air resistance is exponential but the impact is still there. Fun fact - put an aero lid on an elite time trailer and you'll get a worthwhile percentage drop in the time over a given distance. Put the same lid on a back of the pack rider and (assuming they ride in the correct position so the lid can do its thing) whilst the percentage reduction in time to do the same given distance will be much less, the actual number of seconds saved will be more. This is why it is now advised that you adopt an aero position whilst riding comparatively slowly uphill if at all possible.
Panniers for commuting (bits of paper and lunch boxes) – easy packing.Panniers for heavily loaded road touring.
Bikepacking bags for fast and light road trips
Bikepacking bags for off-road trips
+1 for me
Or indeed anyone that isnt some grumpy old git with a weird need to be annoyed that multiple choice options exist.
I went down the bikepacking route in 2014 when my last set of Ortlieb panniers fell apart. On a Welsh ride a couple of weeks ago, though, I decided to run my little commuting Carradice panniers on an old OMM rack, in conjunction with fork bags mounted on DMR hinged clamps. Worked well.
[img] 
[/img]
The panniers didn't rattle or budge, even on rough tracks; easier to access stuff, less ruthless packing, pop on/off the bike in seconds. I'm now looking at building up an old (2011?) Cannondale MTB frame that, because it predates current fashions, does have mounts for rack and mudguards. I wouldn't take that set-up some of the places I go on a bike with bikepacking gear, but it definitely has its place.
For the same reason 650B is better than 26″ and your left thumb can’t operate a front mech.
Greed.
Sounds like you just need a bag to hold your vinegar to put on those chips.
I don't bike pack but if I did I would use bags and not panniers because they look better, they are lighter and look less like I have gone back to 1950 to do a bike tour.
For most of my riding, which doesn't tend to be super technical, I've settled on have a high volume Carradice style saddle bags front and rear, along with frame and cockpit bags. Easier to pack and access than bikepacking bags and work much better than traditional pannier setup off road.
There is also an argument for having less space available to carry stuff, it makes you pack more sensibly. When I see people touring with 2 rear & 2 front panniers, plus a giant rack bag, it makes my knees hurt just to look at it...
It's all touring at the end of the day, people can do it however they want, it's nice to have so many different options!
When we did the Cairngorm Loop my pal took panniers.
PITA on the hike-a-bike sections and also had him off on the tight singletrack at the top of Glen Tilt when he caught one on the 'side'. Never used them since.
Panniers are a monumental faff, don't fit on some of my bikes and put the weight further back
steezysix
Free Member
For most of my riding, which doesn’t tend to be super technical, I’ve settled on have a high volume Carradice style saddle bags front and rear, along with frame and cockpit bags. Easier to pack and access than bikepacking bags and work much better than traditional pannier setup off road.There is also an argument for having less space available to carry stuff, it makes you pack more sensibly. When I see people touring with 2 rear & 2 front panniers, plus a giant rack bag, it makes my knees hurt just to look at it…
It’s all touring at the end of the day, people can do it however they want, it’s nice to have so many different options!
I presume that yellow bag at the front is a Lomo - how are you mounting it? To the bars or on a rack?
I have used all differt options. Horses for courses. Ill be using bikepacking bags for my trip to the islands this summer but my trailer for riding thru france. I doubt ill ever use the big panniers i have again.
Get you weight and volume down and bike packing bags are best.
Long tours then the trailer.
You really do notice the aero drag with panniers especially in headwinds or fast downhill
Why do pictures of loaded up touring bikes (frame bags or panniers) make me so happy? More please!!
I use one front pannier mounted on the LH side for off road stuff (with rack top bag). Doesn't get in the way with hike a bike. On Glen Tilt singletrack it is on the side away from the hill assuming you are doing the Cairngorms loop clockwise.
As for the no aero benefits below 12mph? If that is the case why have I been down below 10mph on the flat when road touring with my 4 pannier set up into a headwind.
Put the same lid on a back of the pack rider and (assuming they ride in the correct position so the lid can do its thing) whilst the percentage reduction in time to do the same given distance will be much less, the actual number of seconds saved will be more. This is why it is now advised that you adopt an aero position whilst riding comparatively slowly uphill if at all possible.
Depends on your definition of "comparatively slowly", at a certain point the aero effect trends to zero, and slightly before that point the extra weight/poorer cooling/worse performance in other aspects becomes an issue.
Maybe "mid pack" might be a better place to try it.
A 100mm deep front wheel and a disc might be measurably faster at over 50 km, but at 15kph, they are just heavy, catch cross winds and crash across any sort of pothole or road imperfection.
For the same reason 650B is better than 26″ and your left thumb can’t operate a front mech.
Greed.
Nah, the left thumb works perfectly, it's just the utter inability to fit and set up a front mech. (Or for SRAM to actually develop one that *can* be installed.)
Another possible consequence of a rack/pannier combo that I noticed when I had my (very early) Cotic Roadrat, was that the rack ‘locked’ the rear of the bike so I lost the spring-like comfiness of the frame. The bike felt dead with the rack on, so had to be removed.
