[Closed] Why do people like windfarms?

project - Member
On ince marshes next to one of the largest oil refinerys in the uk, a huge glass bottle making plant, the manchester ship cannal, the largest uk producer of highly poisonous chlorine and other nasties,along with a large fertilizer plant, and a major motorway,2 railway lines going to different placesand a major river, they want to put some wind turbines, and the locals are complaining about visual impact.

Ince marshes is the stretch of motorway just after chester services and just before the runcorn turnoff the m56

it's also next to a huge SSSI with protected bird species, GC newts and other animals and some time team stuff amongst other things

you also missed the planned waste management plant 😉

Mike, you been up Sutra and seen them close up, I think they're quite cool. way cooler than disused war bunkers and dookits for instance

😆 😀

What about old spoons and ruins in Newbattle .?

Wave power seemed to be the next big thing up until last year , but now even they dont seem to be flavour of the month. The big ugly beast that Is cockenzie maybe an eyesore but can go from shut down to producing Gigawatts GW(GW FFS one of them is enough) In 50 minutes.

The amount of rare earth metals in a typical windfarm is quite staggering

fo' sho'.. I mean you certainly wouldn't find that sort of stuff in other power facilities..
disgusting

it's also next to a huge SSSI with protected bird species, GC newts and other animals and some time team stuff amongst other things

you also missed the planned waste management plant

And the silt dumping ground for the ship canal, where they use straw bales to clean the water flowing out of the huge lagoons.

Sure its called Paradise lane. 😯

The amount of rare earth metals in a typical windfarm is quite staggering - and the negative environmental impact of extracting and refining those metals even more so. But that happens in China so none of the windfarm evangelists ever mention it...

Really? I thought the reason it wasn't mentioned much was because most of the generators used in large scale farms were induction generators, not permanent magnet ones like those used in back-yard turbines, meaning there's sod all rare earth content?

Other types of machines like dc-generators, permanent magnet
machines or variable-reluctance generators are not important in
the state of the art market in wind power generation [2].

([2] J. Marques, et al. A Survey on Variable-Speed Wind Turbine System, Con-
gresso Brasileiro de Eletrˆ onica de Potˆ encia (COBEP), 2003, Fortaleza - CE.)

mind you just up the road there is a SSSI inside the Shotton Steel works, so i wouldn't put to much effort into arguing anything off the back of that.

and the locals are complaining about visual impact.

Exactly, FFS. It's next to [i]Runcorn.[/i]

swan choppers , i like them . quite a surreal sight on a misty day as you ride round the side of a hill 🙂

I reckon most houses should all have little 'uns to help things along

Sure its called Paradise lane.

you would think, but try digging near there and the ecologist employment generation scheme kicks in, it will probably easier to dig a trench through the middle of the Lake District

I quite like them. The have an elegance and symmetry which is visually appealing.

The Lammermuirs and Moorfoots are near the central belt so there is minimal transmission loss too.

Superb - at least the big ones are efficient when there's wind.

Don't the little ones work then ? The people living in these award winning houses in Croydon will be disappointed.

http://www.ecearchitecture.com/portfolio/view/summer_gardens_croydon/

The people living in these award winning houses in Croydon will be disappointed.

Proper on-shore wind turbines (ie big ones) are the cheapest form of renewable energy on a per MW basis (might have been per MWh). Next best is off-shore as I recall though I'm hazier on that.

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_electricity_by_source#UK_2010_estimates ]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_electricity_by_source#UK_2010_estimates[/url]
[img] http://www.smileys4me.com/getsmiley.php?show=2139 [/img]

I like 'em - especially that view you sometimes get of just the blades chopping over the top of a hill. Elegant.

Nah - I don't suppose it will affect their smug little glow.

Smug because of their reduced utility bills ?

Regarding the rare metals argument, it's the next generation of direct drive turbines that use considerably more as they do away with a gearbox and do everything with the generator. It is the scarcity of these metals that has partially slowed their development.

Those who aren't keen on them should try and get used to them, especially if they live on the coast. The amount of money currently being spent, along with the number that will be built over the next few years is MIND BOGGLING!

If you ever needed a reason to like wind turbines, arch ****wit Donald Trump doesn't like 'em:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/sep/28/donald-trump-scottish-offshore-windfarm

Thanks Don S, I stand corrected(ish) though beware some of those technologies don't actually exist and solar farms are not the same as PV on people's roofs.

Don't the little ones work then ?

Yes they work fantastically well, a friend has a wee one on his farm and is astounded by the amount of leccy (and money as it way more than meets their needs on the farm) it is making.

The Lammermuirs are pretty covered in them, when I drive on the road up to Whiteadder Reservoir it is always a surprise when they come into view. They'll have a pretty high capacity factor up there anyway, very windy place! But not as high capacity factor as the wind farm on Orkney that recorded 130mph winds last weekend, they get 44% up there!

Regarding the rare metals argument, it's the next generation of direct drive turbines that use considerably more as they do away with a gearbox and do everything with the generator. It is the scarcity of these metals that has partially slowed their development.

Really? The ones I've been talking with manufacturers about have been asynchronous machines that still are not permanent magnet machines, they're inverter-controlled machines. I'm no motors expert but AFAIK they work by instead of generating against mains frequency with a gearbox they generate against a self-adjusting frequency generated from the grid frequency (so don't need a 'box) and then convert with an inverter back to grid-matched. At least that's what the manufacturer I was discussing with said. But he is only one of many. Using large rare-earth magnets of those scales would be vastly expensive but I suppose would increase the overall efficiency.

Coffeeking - You sound like you know more than me (not hard), the rare metals line was being discussed on the trade press but in retrospect it was fairly vague.

I don't think I do, but I work around a lot of electric machines research people in the renewables fields and pick up a few things, I was just curious as it didn't hold with what I'd heard, but like I say that's only one manufacturer I've spoken directly to, the rest is gleaned through those with more knowledge than I so could be crossed wires on my part.

There's a lot of time and effort being spent on direct drive as servicing and maintaining windfarms (especially offshore) is where a lot of the cost is, so simpler mechanics are clearly an advantage. As a result id imagine there's a few different avenues being explored by the manufacturers.

As a result id imagine there's a few different avenues being explored by the manufacturers.

I imagine so. The various methods seem to be very close efficiency wise I guess it's down to who has what expertise and links to the current manufacturers rather than technology specific causes. Interesting to hear the trade is considering PM machines as a viable option though.

Why do people like windfarms?

On the negative side:

1. Being seen to do something is more important than achieving it?

2. They're actually fans to keep Gaia cool by blowing all that hot air away.

3. It's a method of destroying a profitable tourist industry.

On the positive side:

1. Think of all those lovely subsidies.

2. er, that's it

Thinks they look pretty cool myself
Also being able to place them other than land so you can make use of wasted/none usable space

Wind farms and tidal energy catchment are absorbing the earths natural motion and momentum, come the day, the earths rotation will be slowed too much, gravity will be too weak and we will all be flung into outer space.....................

Any form of energy production preferences is simply choosing the lesser of whichever evil.
Carbon emissions.
Nuclear safety.
Wind farms producing noise pollution, visual pollution, loss of scarce metals, dead birds, etc.
Wave energy, having an impact on sea life, visual impact etc.
Solar PV, visual, cost benefit.
There are positives and negatives for all, so this argument will trundle on forever.
The single most effective method is to reduce consumption. Hang on, what about the job losses?
[img] http://www.smileys4me.com/getsmiley.php?show=1893 [/img]

[Wind farms producing noise pollution, visual pollution]

{loss of scarce metals}

Well these are normally made from tubular Steel and the blades are made from
Glass-fibre reinforced polyester or Wood-epoxy so not any scarce material used.

LOL what ! irrelevant crazy. these are not near homes, and what is visual pollution ?
Now I wonder why so much money is wasted during planning before anything is built
in this country coming up against such strange comments.

Angular plots of pine trees are worse visual pollution in the countryside than turbines.

chiefgrooveguru - Member
The amount of rare earth metals in a typical windfarm is quite staggering - and the negative environmental impact of extracting and refining those metals even more so. But that happens in China so none of the windfarm evangelists ever mention it...

Much like people forget the health and safety issues of Russian/Chinese coal, and the environmental/social/health issues of oil from Nigeria.

Our nephew has been working at a company in Straiton who are leading he world with a hydraulic drive that is going to replace the mechanical gearboxes that apparently cause problems with reliability in turbines.... they are leaders in their technical field... He actually got his job through STW too...

LOL what ! irrelevant crazy. these are not near homes, and what is visual pollution ?
Now I wonder why so much money is wasted during planning before anything is built
in this country coming up against such strange comments.

Just don't stand near one if it's going very fast...

Any form of energy production preferences is simply choosing the lesser of whichever evil.
Carbon emissions.
Nuclear safety.
Wind farms producing noise pollution, visual pollution, loss of scarce metals, dead birds, etc.
Wave energy, having an impact on sea life, visual impact etc.
Solar PV, visual, cost benefit.
There are positives and negatives for all, so this argument will trundle on forever.

except with wind power you get two evils, the wind power and the back-up reliable supply

The single most effective method is to reduce consumption

agree totally, should be the number one focus

.

Hang on, what about the job losses?

there are probably more jobs in making us "efficient", the problem is the fuel poverty it will but people into during the transistion from now to energy efficient

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/energy/windpower/8770937/Wind-farm-paid-1.2-million-to-produce-no-electricity.html ]Interesting[/url]

Smug because of their reduced utility bills ?

I suspect the fact the turbines don't do much useful gets lost in the noise because of the improvements from better insulation and use of solar thermal.

Is the build cost of this "affodable housing" really almost £200k per house? 😯

Smug because of [s]their reduced[/s] [b]they increased everyone else's[/b] utility bills ?

FIFY

Reduced utility bills because of tiddly wind turbines stuck on roofs in an urban environment? 😆

Yes, 15% electricity generation. So on the 13 dwellings involved in the development, that is the equivalent of saving 2 houses worth of electricity - image multiplying that across the country.
How hilarious is that ? 😆

Is the build cost of this "affodable housing" really almost £200k per house? 😯

£172k for a bedroom house, which includes not only a wind turbine but also solar panels and rain water harvesting. How much do you expect the build cost on a 3 bedroom house to be ?

And yes, it is affordable housing. Do you actually know what "affordable housing" means ? It means "affordable" to those that have an average income. Those houses were built by Croydon Council (the first for 22 yrs) for renting out at affordable rent.

Furthermore, apart from the electricity generated from the wind turbines, the solar panels produce 60% of heating requirements. I don't know how much the water harvesting saves on water bills, but it is clear that this represents "affordable housing". How shocking is that ? 😯

.

Smug because they increased everyone else's utility bills ?

Only someone who goes by the name of big_n_daft would conclude that because the residents of Sumner Gardens are using less electricity gas and water, they are increasing everyone else's utility bills. You obviously don't fully accept the concept of supply and demand and its effects on prices. A strange position for a right-winger like yourself to take. I would have expected you to have much more faith in
"the market".

15% electricity generation.

Go on then, where do you get that figure from? Is that the % the wind turbine can provide when it gets the perfect wind? How about the capacity required from the network when the wind isn't blowing?

£172k for a bedroom house, which includes not only a wind turbine but also solar panels and rain water harvesting. How much do you expect the build cost on a 3 bedroom house to be ?

Well given a 3 bed house round here can be bought for less than that [b]including land cost[/b], then I'd have thought rather less than that. I know when we bought our house 14 years ago (at the bottom of the market), the rebuild cost was only 2/3 of the house price...

Only someone who goes by the name of big_n_daft would conclude that because the residents of Sumner Gardens are using less electricity gas and water, they are increasing everyone else's utility bills. You obviously don't fully accept the concept of supply and demand and its effects on prices

How do you think the feed in tariff affects everybody else's fuel bills?

Go on then, where do you get that figure from? Is that the % the wind turbine can provide when it gets the perfect wind?

No, it's 15% of overall electricity requirement. And it's not my figure. Of course you could go along and plug in a couple of 3kw heaters and leave them permanently on, thereby exposing the 15% claim as a lie, and I'm sure you would, just to prove how "correct" you are, but quite frankly I can't be arsed arguing with you. Sorry ! 🙂

We pay a subsidy to nuclear as well but |I don't see you complaining about that

It obviously varies hugely on location, but modern offshore windfarms are generally producing power a significant amount of the time. 40-50% capacity factor is not uncommon, and bear in find some of these are now massive (500MW plus), with total capacities now at least in the same ballpark are fossil burners.

They are still very expensive that's for sure.