[Closed] Why do people drive automatic cars?

But that is my point - why have a go at my choice of car on the grounds of low emissions if my overall footprint is probably lower?

It's a bit like having a go at someone for eating a burger when their overall diet is much healthier than yours.

why have a go at my choice of car on the grounds of low emissions if my overall footprint is probably lower?

Because who's lowest has nothing to do with it.

I'm not having a go at you anyway. All I said was that 40mpg wasn't that good for a car, and that you were choosing to use more fuel just for fun. That's it. Not trying to get one up on you (even if I could). Those are the bare facts.

All I'm trying to point out is that sometimes people take what is spouted off on internet forums as gospel. You get any Joe Schmoe in an MR2 losing the back end, and maybe they'll think: Hang on, that Edukator guy (gal?) said if I lift off the throttle I'll be fine.

lift off oversteer... just a little bit 😆
[img] [/img]

vroom vroom - poor back tyres..

just starting to correct - lift off is a bad idea - but useful to get the back end round a bit..

- much harder to control a rear slide in mr2 than in an mx-5 in my experience

as for this auto stuff...

proper auto = 'slush box' i.e. fluid based, all this dsg, smart car etc is a manual with an actuated clutch - dsg is cool though for preengaging two gears at a time

like someone said to me once re slush box 'at my time of life i can pay for someone to change gear for me these days..'

It's not bloody well manual if it changes gear for you, is it?!

My original statement was nothing about lifting off. It was derived from the thread title which is about auto boxes. It was about "clutch down and steer" being a useful strategy you don't have in an auto. It's very different from lifting off because when you lift off you go from engine driving to engine braking. Dipping the clutch gives you grip on the driving wheels particulary on FWD cars where they happen to be the steering wheels too. The statement is nothing new, I didn't invent it and must have heard it somewhere a very long time ago, tried it, found it works and feel happy about passing it on.

It's not bloody well manual if it changes gear for you, is it?!

correct - things like dsg etc are automated manuals - i.e. a box of cogs but with the shift between gears and the clutch operated by computer or button triggered actuators rather than you stirring a stick in the floor..

problem these days is there are so many types of transmission and control that the line between them is blurred.

.dp

I've just Googled my original statement along with key words such as car control and found it crops up in various contexts. The one I've given and interestingly when using a car fitted with ABS in obstacle avoidance. So it would appear I'm conveying conventional wisdom rather than fighting against it. From the Google responses I reckon I may have originally seen the quote in Rauno Aaltonen's book "Car Control".

[i]So hang on - your Passat cost £10k?[/i]

You spent £10k on a car! Who cares what it does to the gallon, it'll take a hell of a lot of miles to make to cheaper than my gas-guzzler.

And old SurfMat's beemer probably works out at twice the running cost, again.

Right, I'm gonna have to wade into this, even though it's ridiculous.

DSG is an auto. It's not a fluid based auto, but it's an auto. It changes for you, therefore it's an auto. End of. Doesn't matter a fig how it works internally, but there you go.

What's the cone for Rootes?

I drive an automatic only because i got the car given when the FIL nfortunately died, would prefer a manual but hey gift horse and looking in its gob etc etc

And old SurfMat's beemer probably works out at twice the running cost, again.

Edukator - still not at all convinced having done IAM and cop training as well as driving with a Lotus test driver in a 111R - none mention your technique and most ballistically fast cars have a semi auto/auto nowadays anyway - from F1 cars to rally cars to LeMans monsters - if your technique was accepted as a great way to control a car, I suspect auto/semi auto would be frowned upon - it's not.

And here's a performance indicator (you'll have to squint to see it) of auto vs manual- a 335i accelerates to 60 and 100 quicker (slightly) than a 335d. So why did a 335d beat a manual 335i around Bruntingthorpe? I can't think of any other direct comparisons like this one and I'm cringeing that it happens to include a 335d but auto is no longer just for luxobarges:

[IMG] [/IMG]

I suspect most of those dissing autos have simply never tried a car with a good one and so are doing the usual guesswork and dismissal based on no experience.

A bit like those repmobile drivers that say "ooh I'd have a 911 Turbo over a 458 because...[insert some pointless fact gleaned from a mag] or "if I had the money I'd never buy a Veyron, I'd have a [insert some overpriced chav car like a Continental GT or something]

[i]Edukator - still not at all convinced having done IAM and cop training as well as driving with a Lotus test driver in a 111R - none mention your techniqu[/i]

Very impressive credentials. 🙄 Read Rauno Aaltonen's book Car Control then get back to me.

Why? He is about as relevant as Fangio to modern driving techniques and hasn't raced for over 25 years. He was (if he's still around he's pretty old now) also a [i]rally[/i] driver.

I think an intensive Police driving course is a wee bit more relevant than the technique of someone who raced cars in the days before syncromesh or even seatbelts.

Now point out a mention of your technique in Roadcraft or any other well known driver instruction book. Then find anyone supporting it in the last 10 years. Hang on - it doesn't mention it anywhere in Roadcraft...

Rauno's cars had both synchromesh and seat belts and good technique is useful wherever and whatever you drive. A rally driver, therefore well placed to advise on driving on slippy surfaces, my original context remember.

Interstingly my old precision driving display team driving colleague taught the police instructors.

But I don't think your technique IS good and I don't think [b]not[/b] being able to do it in an auto is in any way a downside. The ONLY time you de-clutch is when you aquaplane - that's it.

Now tell me all you know about sustained gearchanges, load transfer during cadence braking and the limit point and then get back to me.

I do.

my dad had only one leg , so found the regular 3 pedal set up difficult.

The thing about these forums Surf is that you haven't got a clue who you're talking to and I haven't got a clue about who I'm talking to other than that you've thrown in credientials anyone can buy rather than merit. You assume I know nothing about car control, rubbish what I say and throw in a few impressive sounding words to big yourself up.

You rubbish what I say and then come up with an example, aquaplaning, that supports my argument rather than your rubbishing of it. Are you simply trying to sound impressive and belittle or do you genuinely believe that "clutch down and steer" doesn't have its uses?

Oh and I'll let the late great [url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/2717206/A-good-man.html ]Russel Bulgin[/url] tell you about what I'm capable of in a car as he was much more eloquent than I am. He wrote of me in Cars and Car Conversions magazine "The guy who won at Chorley was a bloke named * ******* in what appeared to be the world's oldest Mini. Could he drive? Straight off he made it all look so simple. Easy. Then all his movements were smooth and amazingly fluid; the handbrake turns were spot on, the snap changes from first to reverse ultraclean with the car never, ever stopping. He gave the impression of - if he thought it necessary - being able to barrelroll the car to get a quick time, without so much as bending a panel".

Ooh.. Edukator FTW.. hehe 🙂

Mat by the way, you seem to have a massive competitive streak which kind of spoils your otherwise well formed discussions... STW life might be easier if you ease up a bit in these threads!

I see Edukator - you find someone that dares to question and uses real examples rather that some obscure references and so the toys eject from your pram. Then add a random quote that could be about anyone from a well known and now expired motoring journo. Then accuse me of making stuff up while of course we should believe everything you write. Maybe that is about you - but it's about an old Mini. We are talking about autos in MODERN cars. You may as well be talking about airbags in an Austin Healey.

I don't buy your de-clutching method one bit - if I knew nowt about driving and cars, you wouldn't care and you'd move on but you KNOW I know my stuff so it's really getting to you isn't it? A simple disagreement and you're off quoting obscure references and little known drivers, while I use Roadcraft and proper training (if I really have to, I'm happy to quote my IAM membership no. and details of my cop driver training)

What you want me to do is say "WOW what a driving God you are, how wrong I am" Well sorry but no. I think your technique is daft and your "back up" is about as strong as wet loo roll.

Mol - why competitive? I'm not saying I'm better or anything like it - I'm just pointing out that Edukators odd "technique" seems curiously absent from any well known driving handbook.

The reason I am accusing you of being competitive is that in most of your posts you are comparing your opponent unfavourably to yourself...

Edukator might be a much better driver than you. So might I for that matter 🙂 On a forum, you have to accept that possibility and just let it slide (pun intended).

Even if his technique seems odd to you, rather than saying 'YOU'RE WRONG' why not just say 'that seems weird, but if you like it then fine'...?

Edukator - Member
What's the cone for Rootes?

Part of a course marker. I take part in a cheap form of motorsport called autosolo. sort of a 1/2way house between autotest and sprint/hillclimb

cheap, can use any car and apart from tyre wear not too hard on cars.. cost about £30-35 to enter and you get 12-16 runs per day.

Autosolo, autotests for people who can't reverse. 😉

More seriously, good to see you enjoying yourself and honing your skills in a safe manner somewhere you won't annoy anyone. You may never need the skills you develop on the road but the day an oncoming car fails its overtaking manoeuvre, a truck reverses out of a blind entrance or someone jumps the lights in front of you, you may.

I assure you the Bulgin quote was about me Surf. Why not just call me a liar and be done with it.

Here's an example of clutch down and steer. I was descending the local mountain after skiing on nicely gritted roads at the end of the day. Third gear, just engine braking and 50-70kmh, only using the footbrake for the tighter bends. No hurry, taking it easy.

Braking for one bend the (expletive deleted) ABS cut in - Verglas! I let the footbrake off but by that time the engine revs had dropped so the wheels were turning at much less than road speed: No steering, no braking. I dipped the clutch and immediately got a little steering back, enough to aim for a snow bank rather than the bridge parapet I'd been heading towards. Back on the brakes which this time locked completely despite the ABS, slowed a little and gently nudged into the snow bank causing no damage. The next car down crashed heavily into the bridge.

* *******

How did ABS kicking in slow the revs lower than the road speed?

ABS has its limits, it can manage the force being applied to the brakes but does not manage engine braking forces. When you go from gritted roads to sheet ice, engine braking alone can slow the road wheels faster than the ABS would normally allow. I've experimented and found the following sequence if you engine brake and brake but don't declutch on ice: You feel the ABS working initially then nothing, the engine revs drop and it starts to hunt as if it's fighting the brakes, then it stalls and you glide on with the driving wheels locked until you declutch. Try it on an empty car park next winter.

Of course, engine braking is unaffected by abs, and that particular situation is where de-clutching is essential. Re-reading your post it now makes sense.

Interestingly, and I've just remembered this - my wife had to re-learn to drive in the UK to pass her test 4 years or so ago, and she was taught NOT to change down through the gears when slowing, but to just de-clutch and let the brakes do the work, the opposite of what I was taught. I wonder if this is because of the prevalence of ABS and the fact that ABS doesn't deal with engine braking?

Back to the original topic though, I think a lot of autos effectively de-clutch when you lift off, which would be an advantage...

Russel Bulgin was awesome. When revisiting my copies of Car from the early '90s recently I realised that all four of the columnists, Phil Llewellin, George Bishop and the great LJK Setright, plus Russel, were now dead. Sad.

Different gearbox breeds:

Manual
Semi-auto (usually a sequential manual with a conventional but computer controlled clutch)
Dual clutch semi-auto aka DSG (though PDK as found in Group C Porsches in the '80s was the original)
Conventional automatic (torque converter instead of a clutch)
CVT (Continuously Variable Transmission)

Having been to Le Mans recently in a convoy of cars with manual, DSG and auto boxes, the DSG was quickest due to no gaps in the accelerative force when changing up but the manual felt quickest and was by far the most fun to drive. The automatic didn't hang about either but it was paired with a huge supercharged V8 whose massive torque more than compensates for the 'slushbox' feel of the torque convertor. Most semi-autos have a full automatic mode but the single clutch ones rarely work well.

Engine braking is most excellent for stopping your brakes overheating and saving your pads and discs when trying to maintain a steady speed down steep hills. However it's been out of favour for a few decades now as the best method of deceleration due to the lack of easy modulation and because it's usually working on just one pair of wheels. Do cars with ESP protect you from tyre lock-up under engine braking in the ice by gunning the throttle or declutching?

The most obvious driving characteristic of conventional autos is that the relationship between revs and speed is not linear due to the slip of the torque converter. With electronic cunning and higher torque engines the boxes are now being programmed for less slip to give a more 'manual' feel when driving enthusiastically.

I'd rather have a good auto than a bad manual (and many manual boxes in high torque cars are pretty ugly affairs). But personally I'd rather have a good manual box than a good auto, or semi-auto or DSG. But that's just what I like. The manual box in a Honda S2000 is a joy to use and it'll be sad if more theoretically effective DSG boxes supersede such characterful and emotive devices.

You can get an old shape Civic that will cruise happily at 100 mph but I don't know why you'd want to - fuel consumption goes through the roof as you go much past 70 and you'll spend your whole time slowing down for other vehicles and speed cameras. But I wouldn't want an auto box in that car - again, that mismatch of revvy lower torque engines and torque converters, not nice.

It's a horses for courses thing - just like full-suss vs hardtail...

I can't believe you read all this bollocks to make a post 🙂 Good one tho.

My DSG is slightly less efficient than manual, but that's cancelled when accelerating by the smooth quick changes etc. So 0-60 times are the same but mpg is less.

Back to the original topic though, I think a lot of autos effectively de-clutch when you lift off, which would be an advantage

Edukator - something's wrong here. Two car enthusiasts bickering over one single technique. I'm sure your credentials are kosher and I'm sure you are a decent driver - I just tend to use a "sledgehammer to crack a nut" when it comes to backing my own arguments.

You probably drive better than me (I'm trained but that just makes me more aware of errors if anything else) but that's not relevant.

I'd rather share the enthusiasm/knowledge instead if using it as a "weapon"

Just had a fab drive and didn't crash. That'll do.

Just had a fab drive and didn't crash

Where?

I love my automatic Honda Jizz.

50mpg as well 🙂

Never go back to manual.

I've just spent the four hours between this post and the last one riding local singletrack and it would have taken a very special car and a very special closed road to make me swap the experience.

Cars are no longer my passion but I follow what's going on in the motoring world. I'll admit to having an alergy to technology and electronics in cars. I like wind up, fold down or sliding windows; I like to be able to disconnect the battery when not using the car for months on end; ABS iritates me though I'll admit it works well for most of the people most of the time; if I can't fix it with a bag of spanners, a couple of screw drivers and a multi-tester I get angry.

Ideally I'd drive an electric car with recyclable batteries charged from the solar panels on my roof or ûblic sockets when away from home but society is quite ready yet.

And I've taken my son swimming at the pool then at the beach and am running an 11k trail race (running) in two hours time. Driving isn't a massive "hobby" or anything, just interested in it and cars too - from Micras to Miuras.

The guy over the road from me has a Miura, if you fancy a restoration project and have a cash pile I'm sure he'd sell. It hasn't turned a wheel in the 10 years I've been in the house. He also has a love affair with boring Peugeots from the 80s which start when he needs them.

Good luck for the race.

Ideally I'd drive an electric car with recyclable batteries charged from the solar panels on my roof or ûblic sockets when away from home but society is quite ready yet

Can be and has been done. Did you know most nickel used by any industry is recycled?

Plenty of nickel Afghanistan anyhow. 😉 Though Cadmium isn't very nice.

If people like autos they'll love electric cars. I borrowed a humble Peugeot 106 and was favourably impressed. Lots of torque from a standstill and pressing the go pedal makes it go instantly at town speeds. The brakes weren't as sharp as I'd have liked though; lots of weight and no vacuum servo.

Electric Peugot 106? Who made that?

I can't wait for a decent electric car tbh. If I wasn't currently using two long range cars I'd get one.. But maybe that could change.

Peugeot built it themselves I think. It was the highest volume electric car ever produced at the time and I doubt that's been beaten yet. The local Peugeot dealer had one as a courtesy car, a friend got given it when his car broke and as he didn't need it, lent it to me to try.

When was this? I never heard of it, although if you are in France that could be why.

I know about the Nissan Leaf, and the Electric Smart that's (still) being trialled. Also Vaxhaull are supposedly doing a version of the GM Volt but that's a 40 mile electric car with a petrol generator.