[Closed] Why are you atheists so angry?

The feast of the Son of Isis (Goddess of Nature) was celebrated on December 25. Raucous partying, gluttonous eating and drinking, and gift-giving were traditions of this feast....so Pagan origins. This was being celebrated LOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG before" Gentle Jesus was born in our barn"

.....sounds more like Christmas Day to me!!

Question: If we are all made in the image of "god", how come we all look different?

Morality differs between the old and new testaments.

Eye for an Eye.

Turn the other cheek.

Taken in context, these two ideas are not incompatible

[i]"an eye for an eye"[/i] establishes a principle of 'restitution' in the social ordering of the covenant community - if you do something that damages my ox, you have to give me an ox back, but the restitution is reflective of the original loss.

[i]"turn the other cheek" [/i]- is about encouraging a new standard of living, whereby if you do harm to me, I shouldn't go looking for revenge. It's reinforced later the the instruction to [i]"love your enemies and do good to those who hate you"[/i]. It seems to me that this is embedding the principle of living at peace with the people around you even further, and moving the emphasis from [i]'my rights' [/i]to [i]'my obligations'[/i].

Before anyone else points it out, I am acutely aware that if we prioritised living out the bits we do understand from the Bible, we might have a lot more credibility than we currently enjoy.

The debate becomes clearer, for me at least, when you regard religion as a social construct, a way of formalising those morals and ethics that most people living in small family groups would take for granted. As tribes and other larger groups began living together, the need to identify, to retain, to strengthen your own tribe requires in turn a set of rules. Add in that human urge for curiousity, a bit of wonder, remnants of other cultural or tribal myths, and hey presto...

I'm not made in his image I look horrid in a one piece smock.... not tall enough you see 😯

Question: If we are all made in the image of "god", how come we all look different?

I expect it's a bit like making Yorkshire puddings.

Just like to point out at this juncture that I am following this interesting and reasonably good natured thread in the bath, in the nuddy. If anyone makes unpleasant comments, I can ridicule them by using my willy as a puppet...

Pictures or it didn't happen. 😆

it's just that human techniques are slightly more advanced

only in such that we have to give a name to it and invent reasons as to why we act that way. 🙂

But more importantly: what tyres for religion?

Thanks DJ - I understood Kant's perspective but it was your comment about pluralism, that I didn't quite follow. I am probably being slow - but I guess this is your point at the end of para 1?

I need to read McIntryre - I hear him quoted often but don't know his material.

Joke of the day? Chutney's or TJ's categorical imperative. Hard to choose!

I was curious about this so just been on a [u]Christian[/u] website and they (one website one set of people) don't think Christmas origins are anything to do with Jesus's birthday as the bible says that Elisabeth (whoever she was) conceived in early July. Mary (I remember her from school plays) conceived some 6 months after Elisabeth, in early January. Therefore Jesus was born just over 9 months later; which brings us to an autumn date in late September/early October.

I expect it's a bit like making Yorkshire puddings.

🙂

No pics. 2 hours on bike make for less than impressive displays of willyary. Even the scientifically proven use of water as a magnifying agent didn't help.
Poor little fella, it went so far in I almost had a tail...

Question: If we are "intelligently designed", what's so intelligent about cancer?

... so without god, human life would have no value to you?

Cougar - does it have an [i]intrinsic[/i] value to you?

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that I become convinced by the arguments of scientific determinism to abandon my belief in God - is there any [i]objective[/i] argument for why I should continue to volunteer full-time with young people, or am I entirely dependent on [i]subjective[/i] social constructs about what consitutes 'good'?

Crikey - blue acorn?

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that I become convinced by the arguments of scientific determinism to abandon my belief in God - is there any objective argument for why I should continue to volunteer full-time with young people, or am I entirely dependent on subjective social constructs about what consitutes 'good'?

That's exactly what I was asking you (-:

Objective arguments would probably centre around evolutionary advantages in helping others of your species by transferring knowledge?

Question: If we are "intelligently designed", what's so intelligent about cancer?

I'd have been more impressed if you had asked "if we are intelligently designed why can I accidently bite the inside of my cheek."

Acorn?
I wish...

Blimey! I asked someone religious about Cancer once just after my Mum's best friend had died I got told the world started off God made it good and people used to live for 3 score years and ten but then modern humans ruined it with crap food alcohol smoking etc.... *sighs*

The other one I hate is 'oh he takes all the good one's first to be with him earlier'.... really? Purleeeeeeeeeeeease.......!!!!

is there any objective argument for why I should continue to volunteer full-time with young people, or am I entirely dependent on subjective social constructs about what consitutes 'good'?

I'd say the latter.

Without the promise of reward in heaven for all your good work, you are left with concept that you are just doing "good" because you want to be a good person and you find that being good, spreading happiness and love is rewarding experience in itself.

(Reading that back the first line sounds like a dig at your motivation. It isn't. I just mean "in the absence of that objective motivation".)

10 Pages and the religious as usual go all around the houses, arguing semantics, faith and morality.

Either there is an all powerful creator and an eternal soul or there isn't. If you believe there is I think it's fair for anyone to ask you why you believe that and expect a better answer than "because I do". Otherwise they may think you're a bit of a looney.

Poor little fella, it went so far in I almost had a tail...

😆 Make me [i]laugh[/i]....

Lion cold?

So if we are intelligently designed who was on the committee that designed male genitalia?

I washed it as fast as I could too... Nothing, like a dormouse, fast asleep, although not as cute.

...and if you're not meant to put things up your nose, why is it so easy.?

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that I become convinced by the arguments of scientific determinism to abandon my belief in God - is there any objective argument for why I should continue to volunteer full-time with young people, or am I entirely dependent on subjective social constructs about what consitutes 'good'?

from the other point of view you're entirely dependent on subjective religious constructs about what constitutes good to get you to do it at the moment.

essentially your motivations, in-fact all motivations, religious or otherwise, come down to [i]you[/i] and ultimately what [i]you[/i] get out of it. there is no such thing as a truly altruistic act.

It evolved as consciousness appeared and the tribes grew and prospered. Tribes that co operated were more successful

Fair enough - however, that then makes most of the arguments about religion espoused here pretty irrelevant. If we're simply describing social evolution, then the prevalence of religion amongst every successful tribe suggests that, far from being an inhibition, it was pretty much essential to human evolution does it not?

Interestingly, the social geography department at Edinburgh university have been doing some studies (conducted by secular scientists) that have come to the conclusion that communities which have a high number of religious groups within them tend to thrive when measured by the government's criteria for social capital.

Altruism is non-denominational, hopefully.

Question: If we are "intelligently designed", what's so intelligent about cancer?

Also, why would an allegedly benevolent God bestow cancer upon His creations?

So if we are intelligently designed who was on the committee that designed male genitalia?

Moreover, if we were intelligently designed, how can we also be in god's image? Aren't they mutually exclusive states?

(And if man was created in god's image, where did the design for ladygardens come from?)

Good point ditch jockey - I would argue that religion comes out of the social evolution - ie it is a way of finding meaning in what already exists not that religion leads to morals but morals lead to religion to explain why we have morals.

its very hard for people to accept that things "just are" -we always want a reason

Before anyone else points it out, I am acutely aware that if we prioritised living out the bits we do understand from the Bible, we might have a lot more credibility than we currently enjoy.

Is that what it's all about, credibility? The christian church especially the church of england is so liberal it's untrue. And don't get me started on the guilt trip the catholic church uses to control its followers.

I'm sorry, but if the bible is the word of god, is it all not the word of god? You can't go chopping and changing to make yourselves popular with the masses. Politicians have done that for years and look where that has got us.

Religeon was invented by man, written about by man and sustained by man to control the masses and create power for the few.

If you want a true modern equivalent, look into scientology. Invented by a third rate science fiction author who was on record (if his followers haven't removed it) as saying the one true way of making yourself rich was to invent a religeon.

from the other point of view you're entirely dependent on subjective religious constructs about what constitutes good to get you to do it at the moment.

True to an extent, but then that's not factoring in the experiential element that has shaped my personal convictions - my hypothesis about the existence of the God described in the Bible makes sense of what i see in the world around me, and nurtures the convictions about how I should act in the world.

However, the whole thing does stand or fall on my conviction about the existence of God, which I can't prove beyond doubt to either you - or myself for that matter!

I suspect that there is some, ill defined, point at which societies develop to the point where the influence and power previously held by religion is taken over by the Nation State. I think religion has worked in the past to help to perform a role as part of a 'society', but that as the world has moved on, it's role is now lessening.

Essentially, religion only works until commerce takes over...

Altruism is non-denominational, hopefully

A altruistic act is a paradox, it simply cannot exist.

Religeon was invented by man, written about by man and sustained by man to control the masses and create power for the few.

...and, as we've learned today, you have no objective basis for deciding whether that is a '[i]good'[/i] or [i]'bad'[/i] thing - you can simply observe phenomena and reflect on whether they've helped or hindered human development. On that basis, given that all successful societies have had a religion, it looks as if we'd have had to invent God anyway if he didn't exist, so what's the worry?

However, the whole thing does stand or fall on my conviction about the existence of God,

and the kids are praying you don't lose your faith 🙂

it looks as if we'd have had to invent God anyway if he didn't exist, so what's the worry?

its very hard for people to accept that things "just are" -we always want a reason

bloody annoying isn't it - you'd almost think we were created that way!

religion only works until commerce takes over...

Based on recent events, I think I might hang onto my religious beliefs for a wee bit longer - might come in handy if we need a cover for the financial apocalypse.

Crikey - isn't history essentially a story between the battle between man's duty to god and his duty to the state? I don't think this is new as it is a feature of ancient, medieval and modern history.

On that basis, given that all successful societies have had a religion, it looks as if we'd have had to invent God anyway if he didn't exist, so what's the worry?

I suspect the reason for successful societies having a religion is something to do with having non fiscal or political control over the people. I.E. we can make them do things by making them feel guilty that they won't go to heaven.

This is going to sound really arrogant, but there is recent research to suggest that the more intelligent in modern society are either atheist or agnostic.

ditch_jockey - Member

"its very hard for people to accept that things "just are" -we always want a reason"

bloody annoying isn't it - you'd almost think we were created that way!

superb!

This has been fun, and stimulating, but I need to go and do some prep for a DofE session!

I leave you with one of my favourite bits of philosophy...