I guess so. Luckily I will be retired by then and can go and live somewhere in Europe if I can find somewhere that is not going the same way.
Unfortunately we need to have Reform running things for 5 years so they are faced with the challenge of actually implementing anything.
It won't work.
Look at their target demographic: People who want to "win"; people who consider blue passports to be a victory; people bothered about sovereignty (despite being unable to spell it) rather than being told what to do by Brussels; people with "genuine concerns"; people who would rather see a hotel empty than used by homeless foreigners; folk who are so patriotic that they take to the streets waving flags outside a mosque without first spending three seconds to google which way round it goes.
Reform could do **** all for a term in office, maybe commission a commemorative 50p coin or something, and those voting for them won't care because we won you lost shut up.
what is he going to do then?
Laugh all the way to the bank like the working-class man of the people he is.
That Bannon speech is old news, Kelvin, 2018, around the time Jamby of this forum was predicting a Le Pen victory in the next presidential elections. A two-round electoral system is holding off the extreme right here for the moment but the UK doesn't have that two-round luxury.
Local social media, again.
Margaret Casey
18h
Preston, England
The turn Britain into an islamic state with Sharia Law party. Where all the women and girls will be like slaves.
Reply Share
"They" being Corbyn.
Unfortunately it's the weaponisation of people too dim to know better.
There's a brilliant argument for authoritarian (and worse goverments) for defunding education, as over time the general public will start believing the propaganda.
Keep them dumb and angry and they are a useful tool.
It's why you litteraly get people voting in direct contradiction to thier own interests.
All you need is a good scape goat... It happened with brexit, it's happening to a worse extent in the USA right now..
And the Farages and Tommy Robinsons of this country are taking notes.
Exactly the same thing is happening on the south coast of Spain, some stay to work in plastic city (where do people think their off season fruits and veggies come from?) and some move up through france and beyond.
Governments love to demonise them, but they don't seem too bothered about the slave plantation owners who pay them very low wages in cash.
I guess it's also not too dissimilar from the republicans in the USA attacking immigrants, when it's the black market domestic modern slavers who are paying them cash in hand for a lower hourly rate than 'genuine' employees.
As a business owner, why pay higher wages when you can just blame someone else?
"Why are people so against immigration?"
For a definitive answer it's probably best to ask this question off an Australian Aborigine, or the First Peoples of the Americas.
All you need is a good scape goat... It happened with brexit, it's happening to a worse extent in the USA right now..
And the Farages and Tommy Robinsons of this country are taking notes.
Taking notes? They're the same thing. I'd have a tenner on Farage being funded and supported by the same people as Trump. Same strategies. And Tommy Robinson is a useful prop on Farage's right so that Farage can look more 'moderate' and 'not like those racists'.
Unfortunately we need to have Reform running things for 5 years so they are faced with the challenge of actually implementing anything.
So many supporters of Brexit and Reform don't see the flaws in those plans as the fault of their glorious leaders. They blame others rather than look at themselves. Same thing every time. After a few years of Reform's circus a lot of the people who support Reform will simply be poorer and angrier as well as emboldened by a few BS immigration policies.
Unfortunately it's the weaponisation of people too dim to know better.
Totally this.
Also, social media is a fantastic tool for targeting and isolating people who would never engage with 'news' otherwise. It is especially effective on those who don't realise it is being done to them.
🤷♂️
Just been listening to R4 on the way to work. Didn’t get to hear the end, but the kipper bobblehead, managed to admit they’d pay the Taliban to take back migrants.
Also they seem to be borrowing many of their ideas from the Donald…
kipper bobblehead
Aka Zia Yusuf. I don't think he has read "Uncle Tom's Cabin".
The interviewer should challenge him to turn up to one of these asylum hotel mob events in regular clothes, with no bodyguards and not telling anyone who he is. See how the ****er gets on with the kind of yobs he is courting.
The ****.
I listened to that nonsense. In reality what would happen is that they’d be paying the Taliban to torture then kill every deportee the second they get off the plane. That’ll be a good look for the UK, internationally
Anyway… Nige is going to make a speech this morning with his definitely workable and realistic proposals…
Unfortunately it's the weaponisation of people too dim to know better
There's the nauseous lefty moral superiority again. And I say that as a lefty.
My mum is against uncontrolled immigration which invariably ends up tipping into the channel crossings when it's discussed. She's also degree educated, extremely successful, has negotiated cross-border agreements to allow continuation if of critical health-related services in the wake of Russia sanctions and later Brexit, and until retirement was chairperson on a board that dictates a lot of how certain areas of both public and private health services operate. She is in no way, shape, or form "dim".
But it's an easy thing to point at to make yourself feel as though you've got a handle on the problem, eh?
I think most people are against uncontrolled immigration, aren't they?
Good job we don't have it. 🙂
Just wondering how Labour are getting on in forwarding the exact same narratives as all the bat-shit righties?
It would probably help if we didn't have 3 major parties failing to help the situation by going 'ugh we're stuck with this, let's just see who can make the most degenerative arguments.'
Of course buck stops with Labour currently who are doing a sterling job. Labour have a choice to not put Farage into power.
To answer the original question: I think there's always been about 20% of hardline English insecure islander types - that's never going away. This has then been totally exacerbated by the current form of capitalism failing to deliver for the rest of the frustrated bunch that then get pulled into the argument and blame foreigners for successive government failures. The resentment then goes mainstream - which is where we are. Then there's the misplaced version of patriotism - flags etc rather than true patriotism (looking after the weak.)
I'd say start by fixing the stuff that makes a material difference and I bet some of the street anxiety will go away. (Banish centrism to the spreadsheet in the sky for failing to deal with just about everything related to material reality too.)
I agree it's very difficult and nothing is going to be totally fixed (such is society) but it sure would help if government's looked at the state of post-Thatcher Britain in less than stock-market casino terms.
And then you've got social media. Well at this point in my life I'd be more or less happy to see that go but it's probably part of our fabric now and at the same time more authoritarianism seems to breed even more resentment.
In short no easy answers but that's why we elect governments to do a job.
Just wondering how Labour are getting on in forwarding the exact same narratives as all the bat-shit righties?
It would probably help if we didn't have 3 major parties failing to help the situation by going 'ugh we're stuck with this, let's just see who can make the most degenerative arguments.'
Of course buck stops with Labour currently who are doing a sterling job. Labour have a choice to not put Farage into power.
To answer the original question: I think there's always been about 20% of hardline English insecure islander types - that's never going away. This has then been totally exacerbated by the current form of capitalism failing to deliver for the rest of the frustrated bunch that then get pulled into the argument and blame foreigners for successive government failures. The resentment then goes mainstream - which is where we are. Then there's the misplaced version of patriotism - flags etc rather than true patriotism (looking after the weak.)
I'd say start by fixing the stuff that makes a material difference and I bet some of the street anxiety will go away. (Banish centrism to the spreadsheet in the sky for failing to deal with just about everything related to material reality too.)
I agree it's very difficult and nothing is going to be totally fixed (such is society) but it sure would help of government's looked at the state of post-Thatcher Britain in less than stock-market casino terms.
And then you've got social media. Well at this point in my life I'd be more or less happy to see that go but it's probably part of our fabric now and at the same time more authoritarianism seems to breed even more resentment.
In short no easy answers but that's why we elect governments to do a job.
In reality what would happen is that they’d be paying the Taliban to torture then kill every deportee the second they get off the plane. That’ll be a good look for the UK, internationally
That's the look many Reform supporters want(?)
I think most people are against uncontrolled immigration, aren't they?
Good job we don't have it.
Quite. But that isn't going to get in the way of a good rant, though.
There's the nauseous lefty moral superiority again.
Are you going to go with "metropolitan elite" and "activist judges and lawyers" at some point too?
Just need to check my bingo card. 👍
That the post-war mass immigration/movement of people into Europe of the last 60 years or so (call it what you want) must come to an end is now mainstream and popular.
This is obvious and there can be no doubt in anyone's minds anymore. If things like Brexit, the election of Meloni or the near miss of Le Pen, the popularity of Farage haven't already. Call it racist, call it the notion that "we're full" call it part of the culture war whatever, doesn't matter. Rightly or wrongly (again doesn't really mater) it's not just the folks that are willing to riot, but like @TheFlyingOx mum, (my parents are similar) enough people are now broadly "anti-immigration" including 2/3rd Gen families of immigrants that political parties need to to take it into account when developing policy. They run more focus groups and polling that we care to imagine, and none of them can be unclear on where an awful lot of 'regular' folks stand now.
Good job we don't have it.
Which I assume is why there's a government page specifically for it.
Just need to check my bingo card.
My "Low Effort Virtue Signaller" one was checked off a while back.
Ask yourself a question? When was the last time someone whose opinion you disagreed with was persuaded to change their stance after you called them an idiot? Because that's all the "Unfortunately it's the weaponisation of people too dim to know better" echo chamber is, ultimately.
You can smirk and sneer at me and my comments all you like, but you're just talking round in circles, confident that as long as other people agree with you that you're on the right side of the issue, achieving nothing, too busy with the idea of not being racist to figure out that you're only alienating the people you think are the problem.
There's the nauseous lefty moral superiority again. And I say that as a lefty.
The way the issue is phrased is problematic but the truth is that we do have a problem in that people seem to be easily provoked into outrage by people who exploit that outrage to their own ends. We also seem to have a situation that many people are easily persuaded to believe one version of the ‘facts’ which fuels their outrage or they get consumed by conspiracy theories and so are put outside the debate all-together.
This applies to climate change, immigration, monetary policy, etc. We all get miserable and angry and argue and fight each other and chaos is exploited.
If people don't realise how writing off all this stuff as racism from the stupid is undermining those who want a more rational or humanitarian approach, or don't want a populist in no. 10 .. we're stuffed.
Yes it can seem stupid and moronic. But all of us could do well to get out of the habit of letting it get to that stage.
"Seek first to understand, then to be understood"
Which I assume is why there's a government page specifically for it.
That webpage reports on small boat arrivals, which is not the same as uncontrolled immigration.
I try to avoid convincing idiots of anything tbh
That webpage reports on small boat arrivals, which is not the same as uncontrolled immigration.
Ok so maybe I described the page incorrectly - should have been "government page specifically mentioning" - but if you read the entire page it has sections on clandestine arrivals and uncontrolled landings (i.e. without interception), both of which which are a strange inclusion given it's a "Good job we don't have it".
What are you saying? That if a single person enters the UK without being accounted for then we have "uncontrolled immigration"? That term is normally taken to mean no controls on immigration, and we have a hell of a lot of controls on immigration.
After a few years of Reform's circus a lot of the people who support Reform will simply be poorer and angrier as well as emboldened by a few BS immigration policies.
And the conclusion they'll be fed afterwards was that they just didn't believe / want it hard enough. As we all know, brexit would have been a roaring success but for those interfering snowflake lefty traitors wanting to make it less brexity. Y DO U HAT BIRTAIN?!! 😜
She is in no way, shape, or form "dim".
I know plenty of people with degrees who I wouldn't trust to make an omelette.
That's the thing with demographics though, rash generalisations usually aren't helpful, even if they're not far off the mark. There will always be exceptions.
What are you saying? That if a single person enters the UK without being accounted for then we have "uncontrolled immigration"?
I'm not saying that in the slightest. It was a side point that "we have no uncontrolled immigration" is patently false. It's a statement of extreme naivety, and I'm pointing out that government webpages wouldn't be addressing uncontrolled immigration if it didn't exist.
That term is normally taken to mean no controls on immigration, and we have a hell of a lot of controls on immigration.
I was a caseworker in the Immigration and Nationality Directorate back in the early 2000s so I have a solid grasp of what controlled and uncontrolled means in context as a phenomenon not a government policy - irregular or unlawful arrival into the country without presenting to the appropriate immigration or asylum services.
For the record I'm certain that the numbers are statistically insignificant, just as boat crossings as a total of all immigration; neither of them are concern of mine.
My main point being that my mum complains about this "uncontrolled immigration" and ends up talking about small boat crossings like it's the same thing, and it can't just be written off as her being "dim" because she's anything but. It's more insidious than that, and if anyone thinks they're too smart to fall for whatever has lead her to conflate the two then I reckon they're very much mistaken.
That's the thing with demographics though, rash generalisations usually aren't helpful, even if they're not far off the mark.
Unsurprising statement given you're one of the generalisation specialists on this topic.
Immigrants are the scapegoats for the UK decline over the last 50+ years.
When the finger really needs pointing at the political system (FPTP) and the standard of politicians, especially those ending up in government cabinets.
[ deleted - no point making the same point repeatedly ]
Just realised - I think I only post in here from time to time just to remind myself why not to post in here.
Ask yourself a question? When was the last time someone whose opinion you disagreed with was persuaded to change their stance after you called them an idiot?
Almost the same question back at you.
we have a hell of a lot of controls on immigration.
If we didn't, we wouldn't have small boats.
Unsurprising statement given you're one of the generalisation specialists on this topic.
Meaning what exactly?
If you're implying that I think all the "send 'em back where they came from" brigade are thick then that's not the case, that would be a very silly stance to take. They simply have the lion's share. I have no doubts that you could find some highly intelligent racists if you looked hard enough.
Almost the same question back at you
I'm not calling anyone an idiot though. And I persuade people all the time at work, it's part of my job as a SME.
Meaning what exactly?
If you're implying that I think all the "send 'em back where they came from" brigade are thick then that's not the case.
Not all, but many. Not the "send 'em back" brigade, but people with reservations about immigration. Not thick, but racist. You've said as much a few times.
Look, if you distill all my posts on this thread down to a single point it's that we can talk about immigration until the cows come home, but this over-riding "I think they're wrong which means they're racist" mantra, with barely any effort to understand why these opinions exist - see e.g. "geniune concerns" earlier - does no favours to the appeal of the left. And you can not care about the appeal because you think letting everyone know you're morally right is most important of all, that's your prerogative, but that doesn't really help the cause. Quite the opposite I reckon. I'm sure there are a few right-leaning STWers dismissing this whole thread as bed-wetting yoghurt knitters high-fiving each other for being so woke. How likely are they to even consider engaging when anyone who questions the STW Lefty party line is scoffed at? And so it's just a few people going round in circles saying the same thing in different words interspersed with tosh like
unfortunately it's the weaponisation of people too dim to know better
as if that's a useful, well-considered contribution.
My main point being that my mum complains about this "uncontrolled immigration" and ends up talking about small boat crossings like it's the same thing, and it can't just be written off as her being "dim" because she's anything but. It's more insidious than that, and if anyone thinks they're too smart to fall for whatever has lead her to conflate the two then I reckon they're very much mistaken.
what was her take on the influx of Ukrainians a couple of years back.
in my experience there seems to quite an overlap between strong support for that and strong opposition to the boat crossings.
Funnily enough she housed a family from Kharkiv for a year and eventually got them set up in their own place, helped with schooling, job applications, etc. I suppose she thought they were some of the "good ones"... 😬
So it’s hard to see another conclusion there that the problem your mum perceives isn’t purely immigration. It’s non-white immigration?
To answer the original question: I think there's always been about 20% of hardline English insecure islander types - that's never going away. This has then been totally exacerbated by the current form of capitalism failing to deliver for the rest of the frustrated bunch that then get pulled into the argument and blame foreigners for successive government failures. The resentment then goes mainstream - which is where we are. Then there's the misplaced version of patriotism - flags etc rather than true patriotism (looking after the weak.)
I'd say start by fixing the stuff that makes a material difference and I bet some of the street anxiety will go away. (Banish centrism to the spreadsheet in the sky for failing to deal with just about everything related to material reality too.)
I agree it's very difficult and nothing is going to be totally fixed (such is society) but it sure would help if government's looked at the state of post-Thatcher Britain in less than stock-market casino terms.
And then you've got social media. Well at this point in my life I'd be more or less happy to see that go but it's probably part of our fabric now and at the same time more authoritarianism seems to breed even more resentment.
In short no easy answers but that's why we elect governments to do a job.
Very Much agree with all of ^^This^^...
The current issue is that both of the "big two" parties have now been baited into competing to attract that ~20%. And the 20%ers have a natural home with Reform now, they are unlikely to be coaxed back to the middle, they're not really worth chasing any more but the resources being poured into addressing the "concerns" of a loud minority come at the expense of everything else...
The "Anti-migration" position has become mainstream due to media (social, print and broadcast) elevating the the idea that we have a problem with rampant and uncontrolled migration, thus it has become the accepted narrative. At the same time the word 'Asylum' seems to have all but vanished from the discussion, noting that Nige is also going to push for the UK leaving the ECHR and back out of compliance with the Human Rights Act... To me that is abhorrent, but that is apparently a "mainstream" political position now in 2025...
Set against a background of various conflicts and disasters driving refugees and asylum seekers, "forced migration" is going to increase globally over the next decade or two (right?).
Yes "economic migration" is an issue, one for which we actually have management, rules and structures already in place (depending on how well they are operated) and if used sensibly migration is a net benefit for the nation. Forced Migration and asylum seeking is a related but different issue. But that nuance has just disappeared from the mainstream discussion. And the Far right have managed to drag everyone on to their territory, removing any of that basic detail from the debate, all that is talked about are "migrants" like they're one big homogeneous group...
Interestingly the migration numbers are worth googling, as far as I can tell (I'm bound to be put right) UK net migration stood at around ~800,000 for the first few years of this decade, but apparently 2024 saw this just about halve (Is that right? I don't feel like that got much air time Vs the narrative of the UK's coastline being overrun by Dinghys), Probably attributable to the combined effects of Covid and Brexit(?). Asylum applications sit around the 110,000 mark(?) (+/-10k?) and of course under the Tories a significant Backlog developed in Asylum processing. Typically the 'Grant' decision rate would be about 50-60% so there's potentially 50k deportations on the table just by fixing that process right(?) assuming that's the game people really want to be playing?
But that last number in the context of of the UK population and net migration makes a point, all of this bluster Refuk/UKIP's entire suite of "policys" Riots and a news media propaganda effort over just 50,000 a year (people fleeing war or persecution) That's just 1/8th of the annual net migration number, less than 0.001% of our current population. it absolutely is culture war BS and the push back needs to highlight why "migration" isn't the issue that the Far Right wants it to be...
The Far Right have already scored a major goal (in their terms) by deterring half of the prospective economic migrants (mostly people with needed skills and contributions to make) Remember when we ran out of Truckers a couple of years ago, Never mind Nursing and care professions? They've subsequently managed to refocus the attention on asylum seekers (but keep labelling them as other things) and are also succeeded in removing the humanitarian aspect from that debate. To the extent that the Government don't even bother to push back now, and just look for ways look as tough on "migrants" now themselves...
People in the UK are generally discontent because of the various effects of sustained austerity and living through the end days of broken capitalism. We're collectively poorer, our public and local government services are broken and the easiest and best publicised answer on offer is that foreigner's stole your cookie, except they are a very small proportion of the population, and the only people still getting richer seem to be the same ones telling us the problem is foreigners...
The best rule to apply is not to trust anyone offering simple solutions to complex problems, especially if the problems they're looking to solve aren't actually your biggest...
So it’s hard to see another conclusion there that the problem your mum perceives isn’t purely immigration. It’s non-white immigration?
If that's the answer you're trying to arrive at to labour a point then I guess you might struggle to entertain other possibilities, yes.
It might, however, be framing of the issue by the media she consumes as the people fleeing Putin's barbarism as majority women and children while the men stay behind to fight vs small boat arrivals being overwhelmingly young adult males who've left their wives and parents and children behind in whatever horror they're escaping from, and my mum feeling a connection with one of those mindsets and not the other.
Maybe she's just sexist.
Farage has just issued some nice big meaty chunks for the racists. Bin human rights and the UN Convention Against Torture. I find the latter especially disturbing - but I don't know what it actually entails. I guess it holds open the doors for deportation of illegal immigrants back to where their came even if it means they will end up being tortured. That's bad enough but would that open other doors too? Police brutality dealing with illegal immigrants for example.
would that open other doors too?
Yes - from the flag thread and one Reform politician's comments, probably opens doors to the sort of 'pop up jails' that the US have. Some might call them camps.
Vilify, dehumanise, remove from sight. Sounds extreme to suggest but it's happening in the USA now and is where the UK and Europe is headed if we're not careful. Putin can't wait.
It might, however, be framing of the issue by the media she consumes as the people fleeing Putin's barbarism as majority women and children while the men stay behind to fight vs small boat arrivals being overwhelmingly young adult males who've left their wives and parents and children behind in whatever horror they're escaping from, and my mum feeling a connection with one of those mindsets and not the other.
Hold on just a minute there, though...
You appear to be angling this towards the 'media she consumes' but yet you've also stated the case that she is worldy-wise enough not to simply be fed her news by one source and have a look around the subject.
Actually scrub that last comment. I can't be bothered.
You've said as much a few times.
You want to try reading what I've actually said rather than what you think I said.
(Replies will be short, I'm in an airport)
You appear to be angling this towards the 'media she consumes' but yet you've also stated the case that she is worldy-wise enough not to simply be fed her news by one source and have a look around the subject.
Have I though? Clever? Yes. Successful? Demonstrably so. Focused? Without a doubt. Dim? Absolutely not.
I never claimed she was infallible though, and certainly didn't "state a case" about her objective selection of media sources. I was hinting at the exact opposite.
Once again proof of my point - too busy trying to prove how morally right you might be to realise how wrong your approach is as a whole. Trying to pick holes in my argument because I dared question the groupthink, instead of thinking about what I've actually said: not everyone who questions immigration is a "dim" racist and to suggest otherwise is lazy ego-fluffing that puts off anyone trying to have a sensible dialogue.
You want to try reading what I've actually said rather than what you think I said.
*sigh*
https://singletrackworld.com/forum/postid/13275772/
https://singletrackworld.com/forum/postid/13275809/
https://singletrackworld.com/forum/postid/13275816/
https://singletrackworld.com/forum/postid/13276575/
There's 4 examples from the first couple of pages. Am I misinterpreting these statements from you? And I was wrong, your generalisations look like they extend to people being dim as well, not just racist.
Great way to win hearts and minds 👍🏼
