Yes "economic migration" is an issue, one for which we actually have management, rules and structures already in place (depending on how well they are operated) and if used sensibly migration is a net benefit for the nation
It clearly isn’t working. 700,000 were let in legally by Sunak before his departure. So clearly there is away for lots of people to come in legally. Why we need that many I’m not sure but that’s what happened. We also know that approximately half of those arriving illegally have their claims denied so there is a large proportion of those arriving legally who should have used the legal route if they were keen to come to the uk.
BBC appears to be sponsored by the Farage anti-immigration unicorn promising party tonight, two "have your say" articles!
I also wasn't impressed with the BBC article about Trump and his criticism of the US central bank, with the lead image captioned: Donald Trump (left) has openly criticised the US central bank, calling its chair Jay Powell (right) a 'numbskull' - it's actually the image from the clip where Jay Powell points out Trump is falsely inflating figures for the price of a construction project by including prices of other construction projects that have already been completed.
None of which use words like "all."
You want to try reading what I've actually said rather than what you think I said.
I'm not sure what your point is any more to be honest.
I've spelt it out pretty clearly a couple of times now. If you're not getting it that's on you, but one last time for those who aren't listening: I'm trying to point out that you can be morally right but also pretty obnoxious about it.
We also know that approximately half of those arriving illegally have their claims denied so there is a large proportion of those arriving legally who should have used the legal route if they were keen to come to the uk.
Can you remind me what that legal route is for someone with no passport? How do they get here, where do they go if they could even arrive etc,
You think they would be crossing the channel on a dinghy if there was an available legal route?
If people really cared about their plight the UK could arrange a process in France to avoid the need to use a small boat, surely the nice British people would be behind that.
Can you remind me what that legal route is for someone with no passport? How do they get here, where do they go if they could even arrive etc,
Sure just apply at any uk border post. There are lots of them across northern France. Every port has uk border posts at them before you get to the ticket barrier. You can also apply at any of our embassies round the world and there are hundreds of them. Uk law requires you to apply on arrival on uk soil. All uk embassies are legally on uk soil.
Are you sure?
Saw a few driving home Monday, all in Kent, just reinforces my opinion of the Brexit voting ****s.
I'm trying to point out that you can be morally right but also pretty obnoxious about it.
I'm at peace with concept. If that was all you had to say then we could have been in agreement in far fewer words.
I'm not sure what your point is any more to be honest. For someone claiming to be a professional persuader I'm decidedly unpersuaded this far.
Obfuscation and reductio ad absurdum.
There is a well known truth here. Many people don't like it - tough.
It has been shown that:
On average a Leave voter had lower educational attainment than a Remain voter. There would be a distribution for each and, if educational attainment was on the x axis, there would be some overlap between the rightmost part of the Leave distribution and the leftmost part of the Remain distribution. Probably a fair bit of overlap, but there would be two distinct distributions.
You can argue all you like about a few key things here:
Is educational attainment a good proxy for intelligence? It's one of the best we've got would be my counter.
There's a correlation between educational attainment and standard of living - how much does this drive a feeling of resentment etc? Easy to confuse motive with ignorance would be my counter to that.
Fast forward to 2025 and I would strongly suspect the Leave/Remain distributions are present in Reform/Other voters.
And I don't see many university graduates getting nicked for chucking bricks around whilst others hold misspelled placards nearby either.
Unpick away, but I know about stats and how politicians use them. Farage is not, in the main, spending his time chasing university graduates in their 30s/40s for votes.
It’s probably less about intelligence and more about education, personality, lived experience and environment. Education and life experience will often make people question the narrative coming from the like of Farage and they may be more comfortable with diversity. If resources feel scarce or the media pushes fear, immigration can easily be made to look like a threat. Is it more about worldview than brainpower?
Outrage politics thrives when people have fewer tools to question the story they’re being told. If you can point people at a false threat, you distract them from holding real power to account. The forces of conservatism fought the rise of ‘woke’ for this reason and won’t tolerate it in schools and the media.
This requires you to complete an Expression of Interest application, provide identification documents, and meet strict eligibility and security checks.
Good there should be stringent checks and eligibility criteria just like ever other country has
It’s probably less about intelligence and more about education, personality, lived experience and environment.
Or maybe it's just that many anti-immigration racists are just angry middle-aged white men who have deluded themselves that they are victims of a system which favours foreigners and women. Over the past year I've seen 3 or 4 work colleagues disappear down this rabbit hole. I've known them for 20 years and they never previously showed any interest in politics or issues around immigration/womens right etc yet now it's all they talk about. It's so bad they now openly make racist/mysoginist comments in the office, talk about this flag bollocks or are whining about 'two-tier Keir'. I've tried telling them how pathetic it is and they should be thanking their lucky stars that they were born into one of the most priveleged cohorts of people on the planet but they just won't have it. As far as they see it they're victims, and asylum seekers, benefits claimants, women, gays, trans people and 'lefty woke liberals are all better off than them.
Good there should be stringent checks and eligibility criteria just like ever other country has
They still have to get to the UK first, how do they do that seeing that the UK Border Posts you referred to don't actually exist?
I think the explanation goes something along the lines of when someone is accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression
Over the past year I've seen 3 or 4 work colleagues disappear down this rabbit hole. I've known them for 20 years and they never previously showed any interest in politics or issues around immigration/womens right etc yet now it's all they talk about. It's so bad they now openly make racist/mysoginist comments in the office, talk about this flag bollocks or are whining about 'two-tier Keir'. I've tried telling them how pathetic it is and they should be thanking their lucky stars that they were born into one of the most priveleged cohorts of people on the planet but they just won't have it. As far as they see it they're victims, and asylum seekers, benefits claimants, women, gays, trans people and 'lefty woke liberals are all better off than them.
That’s a good point… I have colleagues and even friends from uni who should know better but have gone that way too.
Good there should be stringent checks and eligibility criteria just like ever other country has
They still have to get to the UK first, how do they do that seeing that the UK Border Posts you referred to don't actually exist?
They do exist. I drove through them a month ago and will be again at the weekend.
I think you will also find we have a lot of embassies and consulates round the world that can help
And yet again the so called nice lefties are being spiteful. Those who supposedly care about others actually have no time for the views that do not coincide with their own.
Like many people I object to immigration. Why ? Because we are full or at least at the limit that our country can take without reducing standards for those of us here. I am more than happy with immigration as long as the numbers are less than those who leave. Now to do with race, everything to do with numbers.
Like many people I object to immigration. Why ? Because we are full or at least at the limit that our country can take without reducing standards for those of us here.
Immigration doesn’t have to reduce standards overall. Immigrants do stuff and generate wealth. Immigrants can fill the massive hole in our demography and pay the pensions of the bulge of retirees. You can be against immigration and not be a racist, but you will still struggle to make a case.
Why has the general satisfaction of the average UK citizen appeared to decline so rapidly over the last 25-30 years (even though IMO it goes back further)?
Partially, because those earning big bucks have been busy trying to find ways not to pay taxes, upkeep cans have been kicked down the road in the name of profit and now everything is starting to go rotten.
everything to do with numbers
The thing is, the “shrinking pot” isn’t caused by immigrants, and excluding them will only make things worse.
They do exist. I drove through them a month ago and will be again at the weekend.
I think you will also find we have a lot of embassies and consulates round the world that can help
They exist, but don't think you claim asylum via them which is the key point.
Quick google
No, you cannot claim asylum at a UK border post in France, as UK border control in France is part of a "juxtaposed control zone" where individuals are denied entry and access to the UK asylum process. To claim asylum in the UK, you must first reach UK territory. A recent agreement allows the UK to return asylum seekers who cross the Channel in small boats and have their claim considered inadmissible to France, which may then consider their asylum claim.
Why you can't claim asylum in France at a UK border post:
- If you are on French territory, you would go through the French asylum process.
- You could be considered for a return to France by the UK if you are found to be inadmissible and have no family connection to the UK
That schem to return them has been in place for less than 1 month
The real problem as noted by the migration observatory is that those refused permission to stay don’t get deported to quite “
Of all asylum applications submitted between 2010 and 2020, which were subsequently refused, around 48% had resulted in a return from the UK by 30 June 2024, either enforced or voluntary.
The more recent the asylum claim, the less likely the claimant is to have been returned following a refusal”
It also states that top countries where people were returned to cam from India Albania and Brazil so not really war zones
That schem to return them has been in place for less than 1 month
The return 'one in one out' scheme is new, correct. You still couldn't claim asylum in the UK at a UK border control point in France before the return agreement came into force.
If we're going to have discussions about whether people need to make small boat crossings we should at least base it on facts, not what we think the case is and definitely not what some racists have posted on facebook.
And yet again the so called nice lefties are being spiteful. Those who supposedly care about others actually have no time for the views that do not coincide with their own.
Aaa, poor lamb - those nasty old "help the vulnerable" people are angry that the "**** the vulnerable" people want everything for themselves, and they're being... they're being spiteful!!
Well, tough shit - I think that's a lazy excuse to try not talk about it, in exactly the same way that the pro Zionists claim any criticism is antisemitic.
Like many people I object to immigration. Why ? Because we are full or at least at the limit that our country can take without reducing standards for those of us here. I am more than happy with immigration as long as the numbers are less than those who leave. Now to do with race, everything to do with numbers.
Well - those numbers you're using exclude foreigners, so forgive me if people accuse you of being racist for putting "those of us here" above "people from other places". The standards you're shitting your pants about are at risk because of shit governments, not a handful of people risking their lives to come here.
Sorry - this topic makes me SO angry.
It also states that top countries where people were returned to cam from India Albania and Brazil so not really war zones
Not surprising when we don’t tend to have return agreements with countries that are war zones. Don’t worry though, Reform say they can fix that.
Asked it a good few pages ago but is it possible for UK to pull out of 1951 Refugee Convention and would that mean the UK does not have to accept asylum seekers or does it also involve ECHR. Guess there is more to it than that and if UK pulled out it would be seen as the bad guy but there are sill 170 other countries in it who have to take asylum seekers so not really a major issue for asylum seekers if looking at it coldly. (Seeing India mentioned above, they are not one of the 170 countries out of interest)
Surprised Farage has not proposed something along those lines.
I wasn't listening intently to it but there was stuff on the radio news about it. In theory, I think yes, we can do what we like and withdraw from all sorts but it isn't without implications besides becoming a pariah state alongside Russia, Belarus and NK.
For example if I half-heard right, the GFA includes clauses about being part of the ECHR, so if we tear up the ECHR then the GFA falls over as well (or at least needs 'renegotiation') - likewise the border arrangements on the island of Ireland.
TLDR but 'it's complicated' - but that won't stop the usual suspects touting it as policy and others who can't see past 'england for the english and foreigners out' that putting some flags out over it.
It also states that top countries where people were returned to cam from India Albania and Brazil so not really war zones
Yes hence why they are being returned.
Shy kids don't get sweets, chancers gonna chance.
It shows the system works in that part at least, sending those deemed not eligible back.
So not sure exactly what the issue is?
Because we are full or at least at the limit that our country can take without reducing standards for those of us here.
Reducing standards has everything to do with the lack of govt spending and investment, the flow of money from the poor to the rich, and the influence of the media and private lobbying interests on politics, and f-all to do with the number of people. If all you really care about is not 'reducing standards' then you're directing your ire in completely the wrong direction.
Even if we were full (we're not, not by a long way!) the solution to that is govt investment in new services but I doubt you'll acknowledge that. The country actually needs more people doing productive work not less. Why do you think there are stories in the press about the drop in fertility? Fewer people = fewer taxes.
The country actually needs more people doing productive work not less
Why? To feed the rich so they can continue their infinite growth programme?
Two major things have impacted 'standards' in this country. Less working people to retired, i.e. less contributors and more takers and more wealth going to wealthy. Immigration has pretty much nothing at all to do with the average persons standard of living.
Tackling the first issue is tricky without a Logan's run type approach but the second could be at least attempted to be dealt with, but people chose the wrong government for that...
To feed the rich so they can continue their infinite growth programme?
Growth isn't the problem, all the money going to the top is. That's a very easy problem to solve. We have all the mechanisms in place right now to resolve it tomorrow if we wanted. That's not going to happen though if popular anger is directed to the wrong place. Everyone who is concerned or opposed to immigration has been played by an establishment which wants you to look the other way. If the population at large actually understood where the money is going and who benefits we'd all be out on the streets tomorrow.
That of course assumes concerns about immigration are purely about living standards and not racism. I think we probably all know why immigration is the issue and not wealth inequality.
Like many people I object to immigration. Why ? Because we are full or at least at the limit that our country can take without reducing standards for those of us here. I am more than happy with immigration as long as the numbers are less than those who leave. Now to do with race, everything to do with numbers.
"Some beans".
It's a semi-obscure reference. 😉
And yet those are the top would have the rest of us believe it is all the fault of immigrants...
Luckily not all of us buy this tripe propagated by the real elites. But a worrying (and increasing) number of people do...
Luckily not all of us buy this tripe propagated by the real elites. But a worrying (and increasing) number of people do...
Its not just those that buy into the "it's the immigrants fault" but the bigger problem is those who buy into the "we can't afford to fix it" myth. There are plenty of people on here who like to put on a public face of caring on threads like this, but on the more general political threads argue against the solutions and attack anyone who dares challenge the economic dogma that has created these problems that migrants are scapegoated for.
It also states that top countries where people were returned to cam from India Albania and Brazil so not really war zones
Yes hence why they are being returned.
well half of them are. The rest who have exhausted their appeal process are still here with no right to be here and not returned. That’s wrong and an easy win
How many of them are there?
saw this, thought of this thread...
Quite. The vast majority of people I've come across in my life who bang on about immigration have no interest in 'looking after our own'. They're only interested in looking after themselves. It's also highly ironic that these people who probably identify with traditional conservative values of self-reliance and hard work seem highly dependent on state intervention and support to lead a decent life. They can't have it both ways!
well half of them are. The rest who have exhausted their appeal process are still here with no right to be here and not returned. That’s wrong and an easy win
Probably need some actual evidence to back up what you say since you have outed yourself as someone who just makes stuff up, i.e. border posts for asylum claimants. Just a link to wherever you got the numbers that "half of them are" will do it.
