It is all right, Farage is going to do mass deportation so all solved. He is so going to win the next election.
Starmer can hardly say the same as he would have to actually do it and tories had 14 years of trying to do stuff.
Don't worry about the technicalities of actually doing it or how possible it is, just saying it is enough for my vote.
It really wasn't, believing it was is in itself falling into the trap of British exceptionalism
You wouldn't describe this as overtly racist?
I would and I never said it wasn't, that kind of campaigning has been going on across Europe it is far from being unique to the UK.
Yup, all over the world extremists are using immigration to widen their support. Doesn’t change the fact we in the UK had Brexit used as a tool to further mainstream and legitimise anti-immigrant feelings here. More people are now more likely to vote based on anti-immigrant sentiment, air those views in public, and/or act openly on them… even up to the point of harassing other people. And it doesn’t seem to have peaked yet. When the three most popular political parties (including the one that’s on its third name but led by the same old face, now joined by the big two) are speaking out against immigrants, we’re in a dark place. This mainstreaming of anti-immigrant feelings (from unease right up to hate) isn’t unique to the UK, but Brexit has been absolutely key to our current political and social transformation. That it “failed” to deliver what was promised is irrelevant, it was never the destination, only part of the journey (to quote a regular here).
North of the border we have a government that argues for controlled immigration and against the detention camps
https://www.snp.org/policy-area/immigration/
North of the border we have a government that argues for controlled immigration and against the detention camps
So what, the Scottish vote is just a rounding error.
It shows another way is possible and politicians can fight back against this tide sucessfully.
9% is not a rounding error anyway.
It also shows that this is NOT a uk issue but an English one in the main. We do have our own bams but anti immigrant rhetoric is not a mainstream scottish issue. Even the tories do not try it here
Do you have to try to be so parochial and offensive or does it just come naturally?
The tipping point for all this in the UK was the Leave campaign of 2016. There'd never been a campaign like it in terms of overt racism. Never.
It really wasn't
It really was.
Whatever you say about the rest of Europe is irrelevant. The Leave campaign was the first mainstream political campaign that was so explicitly and implicitly racist/xenophobic.
Apologists for Brexit will attempt to argue otherwise, but it was the beginning of the current legitimising of racism. A level that has not been seen in at least 40 years.
I remember and was a part of the anti nazi league in the 70s. Racism was not mainstream then as it is now. None of the major parties ran a racist policy platform in the way labour tory and reform do now according to my memory
It shows another way is possible and politicians can fight back against this tide sucessfully.
...
It also shows that this is NOT a uk issue but an English one in the main. We do have our own bams but anti immigrant rhetoric is not a mainstream scottish issue. Even the tories do not try it here
They're not comparable scenarios though. The English hate everyone whereas the Scottish just hate the English.
Awa' and shite cougar.
The English hate everyone whereas the Scottish just hate the English.
I think you'll find that the Scottish also hate everyone unless they are engaged in a sporting event against the English.
It also shows that this is NOT a uk issue but an English one in the main. We do have our own bams but anti immigrant rhetoric is not a mainstream scottish issue. Even the tories do not try it here
Well yeah probably in no small part because there has been far less immigration, something like 90% in Scotland identify as white British/Scottish, whereas across England and Wales it's more like 75%.
Awa' and shite cougar.
🤣 QED.
That reminds me, I saw a sign on a garage the other day and thought of you, so I took a photo.
It also shows that this is NOT a uk issue but an English one in the main. We do have our own bams but anti immigrant rhetoric is not a mainstream scottish issue. Even the tories do not try it here
Well yeah probably in no small part because there has been far less immigration, something like 90% in Scotland identify as white British/Scottish, whereas across England and Wales it's more like 75%.
Possibly but by and large the most racist areas voting for xenophobes are areas with less immigration most multicultural vote less for racists
Dont discount the effect of leadership calling out racism. Even the tories dont try anti immigrant rhetoric up here because they will be called out on it. While politicians in England oander to racists here they call them out
For example. Just one of many
First Minister John Swinney has accused Reform UK of a "racist attack" on Scottish Labour leader Anas Sarwar.
Both the SNP and Labour have complained to Facebook's parent company Meta about a Reform advert running on the site ahead of a South Lanarkshire by-election.
The video features text claiming Sarwar "will prioritise the ****stani community".
Reform has denied the video is racist and said it has no plans to take it down.
Speaking on the campaign trail ahead of the Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse by-election, Swinney said the advert was "blatantly racist".
He called for Meta to remove the video, telling reporters: "I don't want racism anywhere in any shape or form in our politics there's a responsibility on these social media companies to act."
The first minister said: "Anas Sarwar is a political rival of mine but he should not be subjected to that kind of racist attack."
He urged politicians to "stand in solidarity against" Reform UK leader Nigel Farage.
Scottish Labour had already described the advert as "blatantly racist".
The party complained to Meta two weeks ago, while the SNP lodged a separate complaint on Monday.
The SNP's chief executive, Carol Beattie, said in a letter to the social media firm that the video "crosses the line into race-baiting and scapegoating".
The tipping point for all this in the UK was the Leave campaign of 2016.
I think it started much earlier when the Blair/Brown govt failed to predict the amount of immigration from EU enlargement in 2004. At the time they thought 5000- 13000, when in fact nearly 130000 came in 2004/05.
Possibly but by and large the most racist areas voting for xenophobes are areas with less immigration most multicultural vote less for racists
Just guess work on my part but I reckon in England that's because people see their area change rapidly, don't like it, move away to somewhere with less immigrants and then spend the rest of their lives moaning about it.
Certainly my nan and grandad did so. They were born and bred in Bow (east London) and moved to an area in Essex which is now brexity/reformy (Rayleigh).
Fortunately they mellowed on the subject a lot as they got older but I bet a lot of people do the opposite and dig their feet in about it.
... so?
Because many countries in Europe are experiencing the same thing to the UK. If you look at all the versions adopted by various industrialised countries to assimilate folks from different (mostly ex-colonial) countries cultures and religions in the post war period; France - We're all just French, the Govt is determinately secular. Germany - You can come to live and work here, but the route to citizenship is mostly closed to you, UK - the hope that decades of 'rubbing along' will just create multiculturalism by osmosis have all managed instead to create exactly the same political reaction; the rise of far-right parties that have the rejection of immigration front and centre of their policies that are attracting ever increasing support in every demographic.
We can't just hope that defeating these parties electorally will suffice, that by keeping them out of mainstream politics that the problem will go away. This issue isn't going away by telling folks that they're wrong, racist and stupid - which thus far has been the 'liberal do-gooder' approach.
What's the plan? Because the far right have a plan, so what's our plan?
What's the plan? Because the far right have a plan, so what's our plan?
Call out the racism constantly. Call Farage what he is - a racist and far right. Unmask him. Make the case for immigration. Make the case for inclusion
"Its not where I come from as a person, its where we are going as a nation" Bashir Ahmed
Thats the plan here and it works
Thats the plan here and it works
I think there's a few things in Scotland that makes it difficult to repeat what works there will work in England for example; there's a broad understanding in Scotland that there's a declining population, and immigration is needed to populate otherwise empty places, and fill otherwise empty labour needs, and neither is the case in England - where the overwhelming feeling of folks who're anti-immigration is that England is 'full' and folks need work.
there's a broad understanding in Scotland that there's a declining population, and immigration is needed to populate otherwise empty places, and fill otherwise empty labour needs,
Its exactly the same as in England. Scotland does not have a declining population. Its an aging population just like England
Why is there a difference in understanding? My thesis is the constant calling out of the racists and the pro europe pro immigration stance of the political leadership is the difference - even labour and the tories do not use anti immigration rhetoric here and we have seen labour candidates repudiating the westminster policies
- Scotland’s population was estimated to be 5,546,900 at mid-2024 (30 June 2024).
- The population increased by 40,900 (0.7%) in the year to mid-2024.
- Migration was the main driver of population growth over the latest year. Net international migration was +42,600 in the year to mid-2024. Net migration between elsewhere in the UK and Scotland was +13,800.
- Net migration was positive in all of Scotland’s 32 council areas over the latest year.
https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/publications/mid-2024-population-estimates/
Interesting article by Jame Tapper in The Observer today about how the visa costs and NHS levies are discouraging top level scientists and researchers from taking up job offers in Britain. This is delaying and hindering research into various treatments and in particular cancer, it’s also costing these research institutions a lot of money reimbursing applicants who do take up the placements.
My thesis is the constant calling out of the racists and the pro europe pro immigration stance of the political leadership is the difference
I think you're right that leadership is an important factor. But only, I think, if the political leadership broadly reflects its population's already held beliefs (either held intuitively or intellectually) about itself. I think its very difficult/impossible for political leaders in multi party democracies to change that substantially, given their short terms in office. "Cool Britannia" (for example) worked for Blair because nearly everyone wanted to believe it.
Farage is popular and successful largely because he reflects the beliefs of his supporters.
You're right that Scotland is different. John Swinney can say the things he does, because; broadly the population of Scotland see migration as an overall 'good'. [a large part of ] England doesn't hold those beliefs, so what's the plan to move from England to Scotalnd's belief about itself?
The pro immigration pro europe view has been built and nurtured over decades. That Bashir Ahmed quote is from decades ago before the SNP gained power IIRC
What it would take for England ( I do not know enough about wales to comment) is for the political leadership to show that leadership - as I believe London Mayors have done ( maybe Manchester as well?)
Callout the racists. Ostracise them. Make the case that we need immigrants. Stop letting the racists set the agenda
Do you have to try to be so parochial and offensive or does it just come naturally?
Just comes naturally. I am parochial yet at every opportunity you point out how it is different in Scotland. I wasn't being parochial or offensive, just pointing out that what is done in Scotland and how people vote there is largely an irrelevance. You may not like that but can't argue with it.
I actually think Scottish people generally have a better outlook on things politically and would probably move there if it wasn't too cold. (You can tell I am not really affected by what actually happens in UK politics!)
A more accurate reason for any 'breaking point' being reached (in Western Europe world at least) is probably this:
The elderly haven't done anything wrong. I would never suggest any sort of campaign to attribute 'blame' to them... but it's the biggest problem that we face at the moment.
Not enough housing? Can't get a GP appointment? Hospital wards full? Councils going bankrupt? Think about it.
Politics in itself is about self-promotion. In order to get a vote - politicians will say whatever they need to say. They cannot risk losing a huge number of votes by stating that the country is at breaking point because Britain is far too old...
But don't be fooled:
1) Leaders will publicly state that immigration is out of control (and that they will tackle it). To keep voters happy.
2) ...secretly, they'll be doing everything they can to get young workers into the UK. To prevent services from collapsing.
The last census pointed out a shift that couldn't be ignored - e.g. many young workers have gone back to the EU.
Other countries (with a younger population) have been in our crosshairs since then. It is no accident that migration from non-EU countries has increased.
Other western countries face the same problem - we are competing with them to attract young workers. The most successful country will be the one that attracts the most, whilst moaning the least!
just pointing out that what is done in Scotland and how people vote there is largely an irrelevance. You may not like that but can't argue with it.
Did you actually bother to read what I posted? Its an example of a different way of dealing with the racists and it has worked. It is completely relevant to the discussion of racism in the UK to show how a part of the UK has challenged it.
would the spanish example be any better for you? they have also successfully fought against the tide of racism I believe using similar tactics
I wish it weren't so, but your argument is a false equivalence because neither Scotland nor Spain is full of the English.
I have no doubts that it can be done, but it's going to take more than a glib "look, we did it, why don't you" sticking plaster answer to unpack several decades of resentment. (Something I'm surprised to be having to explain to a Scotsman.)
Its merely an example of the fightback against the racists and that despite the mood on here being that "nothing can be done" it shows something can be done.
Thats all - its an example of how to combat the racists - take them on head on rather than pander to them
Meanwhile, in yesterday's exciting instalment of Local Social Media Gems:
would the spanish example be any better for you? they have also successfully fought against the tide of racism I believe using similar tactics
The Spanish example wouldn't be any better than rural France that I saw on the thread earlier. If you are using the relatively low score VOX get compared with other European far right parties as a measure don't, there's institutionalised racism in the mainstream. Check out: scrub that you check.
Concrete examples of the conditions immigrants live in and work in in Spain:
Way beyond what Farrage demands:
No one has to come here illegally. Those fearing persecution are of course welcome but none have come directly from the county they were persecuted in. The fact that 700,000 were accepted, quite frankly a mind boggling number, but it shows that once in a safe country then you can apply through the uk embassy.
People would also be more accepting if there was any evidence to show how many people who arrived illegally were refused permission to stay and then how long it took to deport them. If it was shown that process worked in a timely manner it would go along way to help change minds
Sorry, but bollocks can they apply from a UK embassy. We don’t allow that for some stupid reason. They have to be physically in the UK in order to apply. So how do they get here if they don’t already have permission?
If they try to - entry gets denied. It’s as simple as that. Just like me trying to get into Australia without a visa, it isn’t happening. And most airlines will check your documents before they let you on a flight, so they don’t have the cost of bringing you back if denied entry. So you usually can’t even get on a plane here.
Callout the racists. Ostracise them. Make the case that we need immigrants. Stop letting the racists set the agenda
Cool, so keep on telling the racists that they're racist stupid and wrong? Hasn't worked so far, but we just tell them they're stupid racist and wrong harder, I'm sure it'll work in the end.
As above - its not been done in England and its worked in Scotland - you even agreed above
No one cares about your accusations of racism anymore. In the past it was an effective weapon to use against those that have anything negative to say about immigration but its been overused to the point of irrelevance. It's much the same as cries of antisemitism whenever anyone criticises Israel, it's become meaningless.
Callout the racists. Ostracise them. Make the case that we need immigrants. Stop letting the racists set the agenda
Cool, so keep on telling the racists that they're racist stupid and wrong? Hasn't worked so far, but we just tell them they're stupid racist and wrong harder, I'm sure it'll work in the end.
Not sure why the need to insult intelligence. Why not instead ask for elaboration, as to what it involves, how we go about it, etc.
No one cares about your accusations of racism anymore. In the past it was an effective weapon to use against those that have anything negative to say about immigration but its been overused to the point of irrelevance. It's much the same as cries of antisemitism whenever anyone criticises Israel, it's become meaningless.
IMHO you're right but for the wrong reasons. No-one cares about accusations of racism anymore because they're no longer ashamed of it. Haven't you noticed, "I'm not racist but..." has quietly turned into "well if this makes me racist then..."
No-one cares about accusations of racism anymore because they're no longer ashamed of it.
Agree, and tackling that is a bit harder than "setting a narrative". Unfortunately we need to have Reform running things for 5 years so they are faced with the challenge of actually implementing anything. Farage knows as well as we do that we need immigration otherwise the country would collapse so after he's sorted out asylum seekers, which will make very little noticeable difference to pretty much everyone, what is he going to do then?
Reform doesn’t have to achieve anything positive in office. If they do the negative stuff loudly enough, they can take what they want, and take us where they want.
1d·Ewood
We must stop pussy footing about the real issue. Anyone living in Blackburn and other northern towns know that the town is largely segregated. No one in their right mind would drive through certain areas waving a symbol of " Britishness " especially at times like Friday prayers. It's not about race it's about religion. I am scared. As an infidel there are a very small group of people who's God has decreed that infidels must be killed and are willing to do so at the cost of their lives and many innocent men, women, and children. I thought long and hard before posting this however I don't see how it's context can be disputed. Stay safe and well Bob 🙏.
Reply Share