You can only improve conditions by increasing school funding, teachers cannot strike over that.
Why not? Plenty of workers have struck over working conditions. Such a strike is about the conditions not funding. Increased funding is just a method by which the improvements to conditions might be achieved.
You can only improve conditions by increasing school funding, teachers cannot strike over that.
Rail, post, NHS, civil service have all voted to strike over pay and conditions, most nurses I know want more staff as much as more money.
Conditions are hard to pin down.
Is behaviour getting worse? But the fix is societal not in school.
Are school buildings run down? Yes but that lack of investment is hard to turn round.
Is there a lack of pgce places? Yes. Huge funding needed. This is needed to bring enough classroom teachers into the profession. Maybe but how do you keep them in?
Staffing, see above.
Workload, see above.
The issues are too hard to pin down with one campaign.
Scottish schools are inclusive, which means no one is excluded and everyone but those with most extreme needs are in mainstream.
How do we deal with behaviour? "All behaviour is communication" bit the kid who's life is chaotic due to home life is communicating something schools cannot fix. But due to "nurture" and "inclusivity" the child who needs emotional support and help to function as a child instead is dropped into a class to be told about the structure of an atom. Then we wonder why the behaviour is poor, well they haven't eaten in 72 hours.
Teacher scotland not striking. Need the money.
Government has shafted the economy and inflation is high. Pay rises should follow suit.
That being said the main issue with teaching isn't the money but the work load. We were promised an extra 90mins of non-contact time and that hasn't arrived. Far too many trainees going through uni and not enough jobs. Recent job had 90 applicants going for it.
@poah the unions have a hardship fund. Not quite a full days pay but a helpful offset for strike days. I'm lucky enough to not need it but I know others with young families and two striking members who can afford to due to fund.
Far too many trainees going through uni and not enough jobs. Recent job had 90 applicants going for it.
That's interesting because I think it's the opposite in the NHS, no where near enough people being trained. Asking people to pay for nursing or teaching qualifications is also rubbish, should be free as long as you do a certain number of years in the public sector.
Pay rises aren't going to fix the long term contentment of most workers (might make people a bit happier short term). I think employers need to look long and hard at the way work is structured and then when that starts to get sorted a lot of people need to realise working on a decent wage isn't actually that easy, is stressful to some extent and does require mental agility and the ability to cope with constant change. But first employers need to get themselves sorted.
People also need to realise that many of the lower skilled or less stressful jobs don't actually generate enough revenue to pay much higher wages, work as a Barista, there's lots of people who can do that and paying you £20 an hour is going to make the coffee to expensive to buy. It's not all about the corporations skimming all the profit off the top (although there is a large element of that).
The next big issue biting people is the minimum living wage (which is a good thing), wages at the bottom are rising, the next tier up not so much so the pay differential for a more demanding job is reducing, that isn't sustainable.
not in a union
Genuine question, why the hell not? Why wouldn't you be?
People also need to realise that many of the lower skilled or less stressful jobs don’t actually generate enough revenue to pay much higher wages, work as a Barista, there’s lots of people who can do that and paying you £20 an hour is going to make the coffee to expensive to buy.
But when you can earn damn near the same with none of the stress and responsibility then it's an attractive option.
work as a Barista, there’s lots of people who can do that and paying you £20 an hour is going to make the coffee to expensive to buy
colour me dubious - any way to back up this claim?
Also if you can’t run a company in such a way as to pay your staff a living wage, then don’t run the company.
Have you worked as a barista? It's a different kind of stress than a corporate job but still damn stressful
@stumpyjon yip far too many doing the PGDE course
Is that a regional thing ? Because up here it's not like that* Nor are the jobs over subscribed. Infact they struggle to get to interview stage for many posts......
* They keep trying to poach our staff to go do pdge in stem subjects to fill em.
Nope but I've worked in similar roles and no the stress doesn't match many corporate jobs. If it was that difficult fewer people would be able to do it day in, day out and they would have to pay more to attract higher calibre people.
It might be stressful, very few jobs are nirvana, but it's not the most demanding.
any way to back up this claim?
The first bit is self evident, seen any coffee shops devoid of staff recently? Second bit, got any way to dispute it? Double staff wages and it's going to put costs up a lot which will knock on what people pay.
@squirrelking because I dislike unions. Was once in one and they did **** all for me when I needed them.
@trail_rat too many students = too many NQTs = not enough perm or even contract work.
@trail_rat too many students = too many NQTs = not enough perm or even contract work
Yes I understood thats what you were saying. I was stating that it doesn't look like that's the case up here and thus it must be regional.
@TroutWrestler thanks for sharing that. I think a lot of people don't realise how difficult the conditions are in schools.
People also need to realise that many of the lower skilled or less stressful jobs don’t actually generate enough revenue to pay much higher wages, work as a Barista, there’s lots of people who can do that and paying you £20 an hour is going to make the coffee to expensive to buy
Leaving aside the debate about the stress/skill needed the question is how much does that Barista need to live on?
People need to realise that a lot of people on benefits are working. Its just they aren't being paid enough to live.
So who is really benefiting from the taxpayers cash.
The benefit claimant or the company employing them at less than living wage?
Who’s striking this / next week?
No one in the England football side that’s for sure!
because I dislike unions. Was once in one and they did **** all for me when I needed them.
It's a no brainer being in a union as a teacher. Free financial advice, legal advice and representation if the shit hits the fan, insurance if your car gets tanned in the car park or stuff gets nicked from your room etc etc.
Do remember though that unions work within the framework of employment law and so they won't always be able to help. I've met a few teachers with quite unrealistic expectations of what the union can do and that sets them up for disappointment.
any way to back up this claim?
The first bit is self evident, seen any coffee shops devoid of staff recently? Second bit, got any way to dispute it? Double staff wages and it’s going to put costs up a lot which will knock on what people pay.
Apologies, it was the second bit I was questioning. You could just accept less profit and take satisfaction in whilst receiving less profit, running a business that treats people well. Essentially what dissonance says.
I've not read the whole thread so sorry if it has already been discussed......
Leaving aside if the role has been unpaid in the past and it needs some catching up AND conditions so purely focusing on pay.
What would the average STWer, upon receiving an email from their employer stating the company-wide percentage pay rise, say "yep, that's fair enough"? Would anything below the rate of inflation be a disappointment to you?
Maybe I'm just a sucker, but I don't think I'd be expecting that. I look at the utility bills they are facing and the potential downturn in custom down the line and just can't see where a rate of inflation pay rise would come from. I think 5-6% would have me at "fair enough". I only got 3% in September mind so my expectations are pretty low.
how much does that Barista need to live on?
Not really relevant in a capitalist world, I'd love to build mountain bike trails full time but people won't pay enough to ride them to allow me to earn enough to live on. It's hard physical work that also takes some thought but economically it doesn't pay enough to live on.
Paying working people benefits isn't the right approach, it's chasing an impossible goal. We need to be reducing the cost of living, housing, energy and transport, all things that were in the gift of government but instead they have pushed the cost of these things up.
because I dislike unions. Was once in one and they did **** all for me when I needed them
My union didn't do much for me either. Twice. Or rather the rep didn't. Useless reps are everywhere, shit happens, it doesn't mean unions are useless.
I'm still in it and will be until I leave my present job. Then I'll join another (hopefully a better one but I'll still be in one regardless).
Who do you think is negotiating for your pay and conditions? Because it's not wee Annie down at reception.
Have you worked as a barista? It’s a different kind of stress than a corporate job but still damn stressful
Do you go home at night worrying about what your pupils are going home to?
Do you stress over peoples care plans?
Do you feel utterly useless because you're doing your best for the welfare of others but ineffectual management just shits all over it?
I bet you don't, as a barista or shelf stacker I bet you walk right out that door with not a **** given.
What would the average STWer, upon receiving an email from their employer stating the company-wide percentage pay rise, say “yep, that’s fair enough”? Would anything below the rate of inflation be a disappointment to you?
I'd say inflation is fair enough. I've been lucky enough to mostly get that.
Just to make my point, I work for a big company, one of six you might say. We were offered a deal of cash lump sums plus an 8% rise on salary and flowthroughs. It barely sqeaked through. Like, Brexit was more conclusive levels of squeaking.
If I was a nurse, teacher or any other public servant that's been paid and treated like shit for god knows how long you're damn right I'd be on a picket line!
What would the average STWer, upon receiving an email from their employer stating the company-wide percentage pay rise, say “yep, that’s fair enough”? Would anything below the rate of inflation be a disappointment to you?
That would depend on whether you had had below inflation pay rises for the last ten years or not wouldn't it?
Not really relevant in a capitalist world,
Ermm yes it is. There is a choice of how do are those people who dont have enough to live on, regardless of whether they work, supported.
Currently its done via the benefits system so we support all those companies who are paying less than a living wage.
Sure the government could do more with the things you mention but, spoiler alert, if they did so it wouldnt be a "capitalist world". It would be a highly interventionist one.
What would the average STWer, upon receiving an email from their employer stating the company-wide percentage pay rise, say “yep, that’s fair enough”? Would anything below the rate of inflation be a disappointment to you?
About half the rate of inflation would do me!
According to the union, salaries at our place have been below inflation every year for 10 or 11 years in a row. I've been here 7 years now. Certainly not expecting 11% this year but 2.5% is a bit painful.
as a barista or shelf stacker I bet you walk right out that door with not a **** given
I manage that fairly well in teaching.
That would depend on whether you had had below inflation pay rises for the last ten years or not wouldn’t it?
I guess that's why I said "Leaving aside if the role has been unpaid in the past and it needs some catching up ". I get your point and I too am in a role that in real terms earns less than a decade ago in real terms. But again, I'm just not convinced I'd be expected now to be the time that catching up would be happening.
I’m just not convinced I’d be expected now to be the time that catching up would be happening.
Urm..... Getting close to current inflation isn't catching up that doesn't account for the last many years of derisory pay increases.....
I guess that’s why I said “Leaving aside if the role has been unpaid in the past and it needs some catching up “. I get your point and I too am in a role that in real terms earns less than a decade ago. But again, I’m just not convinced I’d be expected now to be the time that catching up would be happening.
But you can't really separate the two like that.
If you've been at or near inflation for a while, maybe you can handle a 10% real-terms cut this year.
But if you're already well behind, you're much less well placed to take such a hit.
But again, I’m just not convinced I’d be expected now to be the time that catching up would be happening.
The problem is if you have been falling further and further behind then now is the time the catch up is needed.
Most people right now will be behind in real terms from 10 years back but if you started falling behind 9 years ago its going to hurt a lot more.
Seems to me it isnt a case of who is, but who isn't.
And I support one and all. Wages in this country have been too one sided for far too long.
8 days so far since the summer, and a load of us got turfed out of our roles with less than 1 days notice after the first 2 day strike and my fairly regular 36hrs a month of overtime stopped overnight, so a double whammy and have dipped into savings recently.
Unfortunately support for the action is mixed due to the unions mediocre track record over the last few years with an 'us and them' workforce split over different contracts/hours, a huge UK office closure program and refusal to allow home working meaning loads of experienced people have left and been replaced by a mix of minimum wage and offshore staff with no experience (roles that traditionally would have filled by experienced field staff with practical knowledge). No longer is my profession considered a job for life 🙁
It sounds like talks have progressed this week so waiting to hear a proposal on Monday hopefully. We haven't had much mention in the media, we are not as noticeable as Posties and Trains but the work backs up. Frustratingly the company is performing strongly and customer prices rise with inflation each year, but wages do not.
But again, I’m just not convinced I’d be expected now to be the time that catching up would be happening.
Surely after 10 years of austerity now is the time
Urm….. Getting close to current inflation isn’t catching up that doesn’t account for the last many years of derisory pay increases…..
Well, yes - not if it's closing the gap on where you were (or rather where your role was - you might not have been in it). But I think it does in another way.....hear me out.
Imagine you were a chemistry graduate. You chose to go into teaching rather than into chemical engineering. Over the next ten years your alter ego in chemical engineering got rate of inflation pay increases and you got a bit less. Assume then that in 2022 your alter ego got the national average private sector pay increase which is about 5-6% according to the ONS and the real you got the current rate of inflation (11.1%). Whilst your role has not caught up with where it was in 10 years ago, it would have caught up (some of the difference) with it's comparator role.
If we are talking teaching this is a good article on the long term decline of teacher pay (sorry if already posted). England centric however - https://ifs.org.uk/articles/long-long-squeeze-teacher-pay. Their summary is that if compared to 2007 an experienced teacher role is now 8% lower in real terms whilst average earnings across the economy had, in 2021, just about recovered to parity in real terms. Less experienced teacher roles are down, but not quite so much.
Depressingly, I jumped ship to the private education sector in 2006. When I jumped the equivalent classroom teacher pay to my nearest maintained school would have be circa £3K higher. In 2022 it's now on £500 less that the equivalent role in the nearest academy. My working conditions have not dipped so much however (although there was a big round of redundancies to survive the pandemic and rumours of another one around the corner). Once upon a time people move to private schools for the pay, now the only logical reason to do so is conditions (although I write this at 0745 on a Saturday morning with 4 hours of teaching and an evening duty ahead of me).
@poah I've got to agree with others. I dislike the need for unions but I joined the one that SLT dislike the most. I've seen them work and they did a good job for the individual concerned. Good pension advice too
I wish there was a union for the self employed and minimum rates! Following the trend from the last 3 recessions it'll be a race to the bottom for trades as the quantity of work dries up.
'09 financial crisis saw cad jockeying around here pretty much vanish as the domestic projects just didn't happen. My pay went from £200 a day cad jockeying to £65 a day fitting gravestones. Needs must and all that. I worked out that overall it took me for £150k.
Good luck to all, there's going to be tough times ahead.
@jonesyboy GMB or whatever was once the TGWU would cover that. Whether they are recognised by "employers" is another matter. Good luck.
chemical engineering got rate of inflation pay increases and you got a bit less
Here's a shock for you, people in the private sector don't get inflation linked pay rises either. Don't think I've ever had a rise inline with the true cost of living having worked for a range of companies for the past 30 years. Private sector employees don't have the same inbuilt career progression as many do in the private sector, job security is also worse as are the severance terms. All my pay rises have come from changing jobs and companies.
Please don't make this a private vs public sector, wage erosion is universal as is constant reorganisation and being expected to deal with new issues every day.
Here’s a shock for you, people in the private sector don’t get inflation linked pay rises either
Here's another, if you're a minimum wage type in whichever sector the annual pay rise is at or just under inflation. At some point there's a chance it's not going to worth anyone's while to take a more responsible/technical job as there will be no differentiation between wage levels.
All my pay rises have come from changing jobs and companies.
Yes that's called the free market.
If I want to get my wages up it's quite easy for me to move to another company doing a similar job and we negotiate wages usually based on previous job +x%
If your in the public sector there is no negotiation. You change jobs you remain on the same wage .
Please don’t make this a private vs public sector,
But alas it is. Private sector can negotiate their own wage or vote with their feet and the market will be forced.
Private sector and essential services do not have that option.
You change jobs you remain on the same wage .
Not if you take a higher responsibility job which is what I did each time. If you move into the same job it is likely to pay similar money, it's the free market innit.
Private sector can negotiate their own wage or vote with their feet and the market will be forced.
No, really doesn't work like that, in fact it's the opposite. Most private sector isn't effectively unionised, and if the unions play hard ball the company is likely to fail. There often isnt anymore money in the pot. Public sector can strike with little risk to long term job security (except the rail and postal workers who seem desperate to accelerate the decline in their industries).
Who mentioned union in the private sector ..... In my sector you stand on your own two feet.
Those that are unionised (barring those at the coal face that management seem to believe are replaceable )are effectively ostrisised
Perhaps why it works effectively to manage your own negotiations
There often isnt anymore money in the pot.
For pay-rises, yet there's plenty for management stock options, bonuses or very large pay awards. Lack of money for those doing the work is normally a choice by senior management.
There often isnt anymore money in the pot.
For pay-rises, yet there’s plenty for management stock options, bonuses or very large pay awards. Lack of money for those doing the work is normally a choice by senior management.
This+++
Those with the power and money are only too happy to see the vast majority squabble over the crumbs, playing one group off against another. How they forever get away with it, is beyond my comprehension.