[Closed] Who do we remember?

Personally, a mix of this

Do we truly remember all war dead on a day such as today, or is it a moment for Britons the world over to reflect on their own personal grief?

Soldiers the world over are mainly young men sent to die on behalf of their ruling classes/politicians. They all deserve our remembrance.

Personally, I spend a moment of silence for ALL those who lost lives in the horror of conflict.

we remember because they were ours, fighting for our country.
just as the german people will probably remember their war dead, and the americans, and the japanese.........respect more than anything is my reason.

Soldiers the world over

I do. For several years I have had an active interest in the two World Wars in particular, reading many *true life* accounts by serving soldiers (Allied Forces and also the enemy's perspective as well as some by death camp prisoners too) and I feel touched at the sheer scale of loss that went on during those wars.

I know Remembrance Day remembers ALL those who have lost their lives in conflict, not just the two World Wars, but it is those that have the greatest poignancy for me.

Personally, I spend a moment of silence for ALL those who lost lives in the horror of conflict.

This +1

Why don't you have an opinion?

Why do the opinions of a load of randoms on a cycling website count in forming yours?

Why can it not be many things to many people?

ALL nations should remember their fallen. Their method and times of doing so are their choices. We choose the poppy and 11/11/11.
I'd have no problem with the Germans etc wearing a similar symbol of rememberance.
Terrorism is a bit different IMO.

My friend works for 'Save the Children' and I've heard stories about 8 year old lads in some African states getting dragged out of their huts and having a gun shoved in their hands. There are sides to wars that are not noble and the people involved there aren't their through choice or fighting for what they believe in.

I just hate wars full stop, any of them, I'm no expert (cue the abuse) but they all seem fuelled by greed for oil, money or power for a minority and its all just wrong 🙁

I remember pretty much everyone that has died in conflict.
I hope that the purpose of rememberance is not only to show respect for those that have died but to remember the stupidity and horror of war. It seems that despite the lessons history teaches we simply never learn.

I hope that the purpose of rememberance is not only to show respect for those that have died but to remember the stupidity and horror of war.

* The example I chose is in no way intended to belittle or question the reasons of said poster, or the bravery of the airman in question.

Get your hobnobs out everybody

Just out of interest which 'bastids' got got?

captaincarbon - Member
Personally, I spend a moment of silence for ALL those who lost lives in the horror of conflict.

+ another

i remember my mates who lost there lives in Afghanistan and iraq.

i know (as good mates) 7 lads who lost there lives. i was very lucky that i was never sent anywhere dangerous.

i will never forget them and i think about them quite a lot.

To remember those who have fallen and to comfort those they left behind........

I tend to think of the old World War one footage of all the men sent out of the trenches to run at machine guns and probably certain death.And even tho it was so long ago it makes me sad at the waste of all those lives and try to put myself in their place and how scared they must have been.And even though i dont really agree with the wars the U.K. are involved in today i still have respect for the soldiers out there because i know i would,nt have the guts to go there.

I spend a short time considering how vile people can be to other people, often involving sending young people to kill strangers the world over. I can't really differentiate between the grief of a soldiers family here and the grief of an Afghan kids family who happened to be at a wedding that was droned. All pain, all heartbreaking, none of it done for my benefit.

Very moved by veterans accounts of the horror of war, tempered with the fact that they were ordered to inflict the same on the other side.

Terrorism is a bit different IMO.

What about freedom fighters?

Now it's biscuit time!

I shall make my own mind up on who I consider terrorists/freedom fighters and accept that others views will differ to mine.

...and respect their right to remember them in any way they see fit?

As long as it's peaceful and respectful to others.

😀

I remember just how lucky I am to be here and say a silent thanks to the many thousands that that gave everything and didn't manage to survive.

My paternal grandfather volunteered [like most] during WW1 and fought in the trenches
My dad was a radio operator in a Wellington bomber during WW2

They both came home to their loved ones to raises their families in a free country so I consider myself particularly lucky to beat the odds and actually live in this great country.

Consider this as one example:

Battle of Loos September 1915.

British generals decide to use gas against the Germans.
Therefore no previous artillery 'softening up'.
The wind is blowing the wrong way, so the gas will blow back on the British lines.
The soldiers operating the gas refuse several times to release it.
They are then given the choice, release it or be shot.
The gas is released and blows back on to the forward trenches where it incapacitates many soldiers.

Some soldiers, climb out of the trenches to move back to the second line to escape the gas.
But they can't because there has been barbed wire erected to prevent a retreat.
Meanwhile the Germans have some good targets...

Eventually the order is given to advance and the troops move forward, only to find that the ground they are expected to advance over is so pockmarked with deep holes that they have to proceed in file.
All this in plain sight and range of the German machine guns and artillery.
But still they went forward.

It cost us 20,000 men for a mornings work.

Amazingly the survivors took the objectives, but there were so few of them left alive that they could not hold it.

Lest we forget.

I remember seeing an interview with one of the men portrayed in band of brothers. He said something to the effect of "as the the German soldiers personally I have no problems with them. They were doing what they were supposed to do and so was I. They might have liked to fish"
If someone who's been through what he has can have that attitude then it's not a big ask for us to. The christmas truce reflects the whole sadness of it quite well.

That sentiment is spot on wrecker, which is why I personally found B.A.Nana's 'got the bastids' to be distasteful.

I've been trying to find an interview I read a while ago where a veteran of the Somme talks about why he never wore a poppy, laid a wreath or contributed to the British Legion. I will continue looking because I don't want to paraphrase him but it's pretty much to do with the situations that caused the gas story above.

It cost us 20,000 men for a mornings work

I really struggle to comprehend the insanity of that, or many other similar examples from (in particular) WW1.

I tend to think of WW1 and the horror of the trenches on Armistice Day, as when I was a kid those were predominantly the images that were shown. But I think of everyone of all nationalities who has lost their life in conflict, and those they left behind.

aka_Gilo - Member
'It cost us 20,000 men for a mornings work'
I really struggle to comprehend the insanity of that,...

It speaks volumes for the dangers of having a political system where the leaders feel so superior to the men, that it is a matter of little consequence to feed them into machine guns.

It speaks volumes for the dangers of having a political system where the leaders feel so superior to the men, that it is a matter of little consequence to feed them into machine guns.

This^

Today is a day to be thankful too, that those days are behind us.

My great grandfather......fought in the great war and was injured 3 times, once being the only survivor of a patrol that got hit by a shell. A true hero

Also my great uncle who was a rear gunner in a lancaster, saw many of his close friends meet their demise

Both have sadly now passed on but ill never forget them or be humbled by what they did

I've been trying to find an interview I read a while ago where a veteran of the Somme talks about why he never wore a poppy, laid a wreath or contributed to the British Legion. I will continue looking because I don't want to paraphrase him but it's pretty much to do with the situations that caused the gas story above.

Still no joy but the sentiments expressed in this column are very similar:

[url= http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/columnists/robert-fisk/remember-this-were-not-worthy-of-wearing-poppies-16074942.html ]We're not worthy[/url]

Thanks for the replies everyone. Just like to clear a couple of things up:

B.A.Nana

So, why did you edit my post? from 'shot down and killed over Dresden', to just 'shot down over Dresden', did it suit you better?

I though that the context of the original post, a family remembering someone who was shot down implied that they had been killed, but it looks like I was wrong. For that I apologise and if I could go back and edit my post I would. My point, which stays the same with or without the word killed, was to contrast two points of view, one who mourned all dead and one who thought little of the opposition. If your post was meant tongue in cheek and you don't think all 25,000 people who died in one raid on Dresden were 'bastids' then I missed that implication and again I apologise. Again, if the raid you mention was solely on military targets, I apologise. I just think the word 'soldiers' would have sounded better.

Too Tall

Why do the opinions of a load of randoms on a cycling website count in forming yours?

I know, I know, I struggle with long sentences.

I try and remember all combatants really, but focus on the people closest to me and they're mostly English. I do have some German relatives as well so it would be nonsensical to forget their suffering. Reading things like All Quiet on the Western Front and Slaughterhouse 5 has influenced that opinion.

My great grandfather......fought in the great war and was injured 3 times, once being the only survivor of a patrol that got hit by a shell. A true hero

I don't wish to undermine the actions of your great grandfather, but I can't see how this made him a true hero.

My Grandfather who I never knew. He was killed at Arnhem. A few years ago I went there with my Father, his Son, on the 65th Celebration of Dutch Liberation. There was only one Veteran left from my Grandfathers unit & I was privileged to meet him. Even more so when I was presented with a wreath of Red Poppies to lay..Biggest lump in my throat ever when I saluted that Memorial alone with several thousand Dutch watching..I did my best to make the salute a good one..not just for my Grandfather but also for his comrades who didn't make it & the ones I didn't know, the ones I'll never know & for those yet to die..

but I can't see how this made him a true hero.

I've no idea how nomakoman's great grandfather ended up fighting for all of us in WW1 but most volunteered and that makes them super heroes as far as I'm concerned

Interesting point, uplink, but facing the social stigma for staying at home may have been even braver.

In August 1914, at the start of the First World War, Admiral Charles Fitzgerald founded the Order of the White Feather with support from the prominent author Mrs Humphrey Ward. The organisation aimed to coerce men to enlist in the British Army by persuading women to present them with a white feather if they were not wearing a uniform.

In 1916 conscription was introduced.

Still, nomakoman's great grandfather undoubtedly lived things which would turn our hair white. Remember the tragedy of men who went having been sold an idea that wasn't 100% true. Your Country Needs You! (to go and defend France).

Double post. Have a poem.

What passing-bells for these who die as cattle?
Only the monstrous anger of the guns.
Only the stuttering rifles' rapid rattle
Can patter out their hasty orisons.
No mockeries now for them; no prayers nor bells;
Nor any voice of mourning save the choirs, –
The shrill, demented choirs of wailing shells;
And bugles calling for them from sad shires.
What candles may be held to speed them all?
Not in the hands of boys but in their eyes
Shall shine the holy glimmers of goodbyes.
The pallor of girls' brows shall be their pall;
Their flowers the tenderness of patient minds,
And each slow dusk a drawing-down of blinds.

CharlieMungus - Member
I don't wish to undermine the actions of your great grandfather, but I can't see how this made him a true hero.

Any man who climbs out of a trench and advances into machine gun and artillery fire is a hero IMO.

Footballers et al, aren't.

Interesting point, uplink, but facing the social stigma for staying at home may have been even braver.

Staying at home and being given feathers braver than going to the front line and facing machine guns?
No, just no.

This year I was in a woodland area in a school playground doing forest school stuff. We had our 2 minutes silence and I remembered my grandad, who died a couple of weeks ago at 93. Knew he'd been in WWII but never talked about it. Found out at the funeral service he'd just got off the beach at Cherbourg at the time of Dunkirk evacuation with German forces pouring onto either end of the beach. I imagine there's lots of other stories he never voiced. So this year I remembered him.

I think about the men and women of the world wars who were defending our country from foreign invasion and the more recent casualties who keep us a little safer from fruitcake idealogies around the world.

[i]Footballers et al, aren't.[/i]

"In his native Brazil, Pelé is hailed as a national hero." from wiki...

not trying to undermine remembrance day, but heros aren't just from the army

Wrecker

Staying at home and being given feathers braver than going to the front line and facing machine guns?
No, just no.

Yeah, you're right. When I read that back I tried to edit but I was too late. What I was trying to say was that at the time the pressure to go serve was immense. Recruitment posters screamed 'GO FIGHT!!' and the prevailing mood was that anyone who didn't was shirking thier responsibility to the country and fellow country men. Look at these

[img] http://pw20c.mcmaster.ca/files/imagecache/csthumb/pw20c_images/00000936.jpg [/img][img] http://pw20c.mcmaster.ca/files/imagecache/csthumb/pw20c_images/00000880.jp g" target="_blank">http://pw20c.mcmaster.ca/files/imagecache/csthumb/pw20c_images/00000936.jpg [/img][img] http://pw20c.mcmaster.ca/files/imagecache/csthumb/pw20c_images/00000880.jp g"/> [/img]

Unfortunately the reality of bombs and bullets was a far cry from the macho image sold by the posters. Do you think if the poster said 'Come to France and get shot to pieces for Me?' with a picture of a Frenchman on it would have had quite the same impact? Lets not forget Britain was quite comfortable on the world stage at the time, being in control of 2/3 of the globe. They were fighting a war on behalf of France and Belgium.
All this I imagine became apparent to the volunteers once they arrived in the trenches, but by then it was too late. Their sense of social responsiblity had been manipulated to get them to fight someone else's war. Brave in the face of horrific conditions? Undoubtedly. Brave at the time of volunteering? Shamelessy sold out and manipulated by the same people that made them walk slowly towards a machine gun. Tragic, and that's what I'll remember.

Lets not forget Britain was quite comfortable on the world stage at the time, being in control of 2/3 of the globe. They were fighting a war on behalf of France and Belgium.

Don't think it was fighting on the behalf of France and Belgium as such. The first world war was the ultimate war of imperialism. Started for such ridiculous reasons.

I'm proud of what the soldiers did, not proud of the reasons why they had to do it.

who keep us a little safer from fruitcake idealogies around the world.

See above. Even today we are still fighting wars based on an idealogy.

Sonor: 'on behalf of' from a 'get off my land' perspective.

IanW: Do you also mourn the foreign dead left in the wake of British Imperialism (otherwise known as invading other countries) or is World Domination one of the more noble idealogies?

Remember ther dead, remember their bravery, but also never forget who sent them there to die.

Thanks again to everyone who has contributed. We have strayed a little off topic but it's made for interesting reading.

My personal remmembrance this year will take in all these contributions.

There's a pretty firm distinction between condoning war and honouring the memory of those who died.

[img] [/img]

To them all.

I remember one of my best school mates who was killed at Warrenpoint over 30 years ago - RIP Nick!

epicyclo - Member

CharlieMungus - Member
I don't wish to undermine the actions of your great grandfather, but I can't see how this made him a true hero.

Any man who climbs out of a trench and advances into machine gun and artillery fire is a hero IMO.

I'd tend to agree there, but I think in reality few actually had any choice in this activity. But this was not one of the activities cited, which is why i asked the question