I've got a D5000 and a simple lumix point and press, but the lumix is just too basic for reasonable pics. What do you recommend for a reasonable small camera that is copact enough to carry around and which gives me some control?
Depends how compact you want...
There are cameras like the Lumix tz20, Sony EX9 etc that offer many manual features with a decent zoom
Moving up a size/level there are cameras like the Panasonic LX5, Canon G12 or the new Nikon p7100 which aren't as compact but offer more dials/controls to hand, have flash hot shoes & slightly bigger sensor.
I am currently deciding whether to get the p7100 or whether it's too big & I should go for the Lumi tz20 instead.
D5000 isn't exactly big
Hmm, p700 is the price of my dslr.
Aperture and shuuter speed control are necessary does the lu do that?
D5000 doesn't just slip in yer pocket
TZ20 does shutter & aperture priority.
My only reservation is low light performance - I've not had a fiddle with one, but I know Lumi cameras from a few years ago were very noisy as soon as the ISO went up.
Can't recommend the Canon S95 (or the newer version) high enough, such a great little camera. Full manual mode and can shoot in raw. It comfortably slips in a trouser or jacket pocket. It can be a bit noisy at ISO800+ but Lightroom 3 has really good noise reduction tools so it's less of an issue 🙂
stumpy01 - Member
TZ20 does shutter & aperture priority.
Hasn't it also got 'full' manual mode? My TZ10 does and can't imagine why they would take it away on the updated model.
slainte 🙂 rob
The main 'serious' compacts with manual control are: Panasonic LX5, Ricoh GRD4, Canon S95, Olympus XZ-1, Fuji X10. (Earlier and thus now cheaper versions of the first three are available.)
And then there's all the Panasonic/Olympus/Samsung/Nikon/etc mirrorless bunch which will all give you good control and larger sensors for slightly more bulk than the above (or significantly more bulk if comparing against the S95 or GRD4).
IMO the small-sensor-but-not-really-that-pocketable things like the Canon G12 etc feel a bit lost these days in between genuinely compact cameras and the new mirrorless crowd which are only marginally larger.
Samsung EX1 might fit the bill
I'll say what I always say for nice compact recommendations - Olympus XZ-1. Big sensor, fast lens, sensible megapixels.
Second hand Canon S90 can be had for not huge amounts of money these days.
colournoise - Member
Hasn't it also got 'full' manual mode? My TZ10 does and can't imagine why they would take it away on the updated model.
erm, yeah, it has. But I was answering the question....
Aperture and shuuter speed control are necessary does the lu do that?
I've got an LX3, but if I were buying one, my choices would between TZ20 - lowest image quality, but most flexibility and features packed in (ie GPS, long zoom etc too), the new canon S100 (finally canon is starting it's zoom at 24mm) or a GF3 for best but-still-compactish image quality.
IMO the small-sensor-but-not-really-that-pocketable things like the Canon G12 etc feel a bit lost these days in between genuinely compact cameras and the new mirrorless crowd which are only marginally larger.
I saw the Olympus E-PM1 the other day, tiny version of the PEN interchangeable lens range. With a small lens, it is the smallest decentish camera I've ever seen. In some ways not as nice as my e-p1 (controls etc. are inevitably a bit fiddly in comparison) but blimey it is neat and tidy - more small than a lot of 'compact' cameras you see.
Oly E-PM1 is ace but if you want it to be as small as an XZ-1 or similar then you will need one of hte prime lenses which means more money and no zoom. I wish they'd supply it with a prime as the kit lens.
The Canon S95 is fantastic, excellent quality and full manual control by a selector ring around the lens and a small dial on the back.
Plus it has a decent size sensor so picture quality is great. Fits in your pocket too but comes at a price.
cobblers - Member
The Canon S95 is fantastic, excellent quality and full manual control by a selector ring around the lens and a small dial on the back.
How easy is it to access all the manual settings? They all seem to be accessed from the menu system?? Is that right? Has Canon managed to do this in an easy accessible way or does it slow things down a lot??
Hmm looks like what i want is a Compact System camera is it?
Has Canon managed to do this in an easy accessible way or does it slow things down a lot??
I'd say it's very accessible. The thumbwheel on the back is used to change shutter speed and the dial around the lens adjusts the aperture. The only slightly fiddly thing is having to press the middle thumbwheel button to flick through ISO settings. As I've said before you have to get used to a bit of shutter lag but once you do you can get some really good photos with it. Took me about 10 minutes to adjust to the lag so it's not exactly a steep learning curve. Got a load of photos up [url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/toddersby/ ]here[/url], think the majority were taken with the s95.
Canon S95 was cheap from Best Buy last week.
Don't know whether it still is.
http://www.hotukdeals.com/deals/canon-s95-229-99-bestbuy-10-quidco-1051894
I use an LX3 and really like it. The LX5 has replaced it and has a longer zoom range and better HD video.
There's also the slightly larger Canon G12, although as mentioned above, it gets close to the swappable lens cameras available now from Olympus, Sony and Panasonic (some are particularly cheap).
I've never been happy with the fidelity of the compact zooms (like like the TZs)
I'll be honest though. My iPhone 4 gets used most of the time these days. It's small, always on me, has in-built processing (so it's not all waiting for me when I get home), in-built photo sharing via twitter/facebook/flickr, etc.
The iPhone 4S is meant to be even better.
A good introduction to iPhone4 photography is my friend's blog.
http://inologist.com/
I guess minimal lag and a good zoom are quite important too.
Another vote for the S95 if portability is your prime goal. I just picked one up and love it.
Regarding the settings, it's very customisable too - you can change the way the buttons work. There are 2 wheels and you can set them up how you want. I've just changed it so the front ring around the lens does ISO and the rear wheel does aperture or shutter - just click 'up' and it swaps between the two. This gives very quick and easy fingertip control of all the 3 key settings for a good exposure. Shoots RAW and has histogram on live view and playback.
Image quality seems really good but most importantly for me, it's tiny so really easy to stick in a camelbak or pocket.
The S100 is just announced and has some really good additions - ND filter, 24mm wide angle, full 1080p - but this also means you can get the S95 for a good price. I got mine as I needed one now.
The S100 is showing on Amazon as being released at the start of next year. It's also considerably dearer than the S95 (£380 vs £230 -ish). Killer app for me there is the GPS tagging.
The Best Buy offer is still open. It looks like you can stack it with [url= http://www.topcashback.co.uk/ref/ukcougar ]TopCashBack[/url](*) for another ~£15 off the price, though it looks like that offer ends tomorrow.
(*) - link is my referrer ID, if anyone uses it we both get a small kickback.
The 1080p video probably wouldn't be a major selling point though as the 720p on the S95 is average. Good enough for quick simple things but it's rubbish on a bright day, everything gets overexposed.
So, how is the lag on the S95?
Also, are there any good Nikons in that range?
Just been to look at the Nikon S9100, does that give Manual / A / S controls?
also saw the Canon SX230, which seemed ok
and the Canon, which is twice the price at £400 but looks and feel pretty good.
Any thoughts / Advice?
Nope, Nikon S9100 doesn't have manual/A/S modes. It's more of a point & shoot.
There are a couple of reviews of it here:
http://www.pocket-lint.com/review/5367/nikon-coolpix-s9100-camera-review
http://www.techradar.com/reviews/cameras-and-camcorders/cameras/compact-cameras/nikon-coolpix-s9100-939799/review?artc_pg=1
I think the Nikon equivalent to the Canon S95 is the P300, which is review here:
http://www.techradar.com/reviews/cameras-and-camcorders/cameras/compact-cameras/nikon-coolpix-p300-927281/review
and generally gets a good write up. It doesn't shoot RAW which might be a ball-ache.
Don't think i want/need raw, i don't even use it on my DSLR...yet
Canon G12 looked nice and felt good at £400!
Isn't the G12 just the S90 in a bigger box? Or am I misremembering?
http://www.google.co.uk/products/catalog?hl=en&sugexp=tshc&cp=7&gs_id=1a&xhr=t&q=canon+g12&safe=off&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&biw=1366&bih=643&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=337604704948272523&sa=X&ei=kxG4TrySA4PIhAfDtrm0Cw&sqi=2&ved=0CIUBEPMCMAE
some differences, but i don't know what effect they have. The only downside of this cam is that it doesn't have that fantastic zoom, which a lot of newer compacts have
Been looking at these myself. The Canon SX 230 is currently top of the list. It's very slightly bigger than the S95 but much bigger zoom range, full HD video and integrated GPS. Currently on Amazon at £199
Came out top in a test against Panasonic, Nikon etc [url= http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/q311travelzoomgrouptest/ ]HERE[/url]
Ah, ok, so big zoom is at expense of image quality, due to little sensor. Right. Every day is a school day
"[i]Don't think i want/need raw, i don't even use it on my DSLR...yet [/i]"
Ah...
But larger-sensored cameras tend to have better JPEG output because they have better data coming in. Small-sensor cameras can have crappy JPEG output because (a) the data coming in is a lot lower quality than from an APS-C sensor, and (b) they're in a pretty saturated market segment which values low noise above high detail, notably at higher ISOs.
My compact, the Ricoh GRD2, is perhaps the clearest example of this. Ricoh's earlier cameras were panned in reviews for their noise, but all Ricoh were doing was retaining detail (which is why a lot of "enthusiasts" still love the older Ricohs - they're good at grainy, detailed shots especially in B&W). Ricoh then decided to follow the herd and stamp on all the noise - the result being horrible, smeary JPEGs. The GRD2 has dreadful JPEG output but, importantly, because the lens is probably the best quality you'll find on a compact, the raw files are outstanding; I've had prints up to 4x3 [i]feet[/i] in size from it.
Compare this with the JPEG output from my GF1 which is fine (not perfect, but fine) at all ISOs. The larger sensor means better data (so there's less damage done to detail in getting the noise to an "acceptable" level), and arguably it's aimed at a different market (which may value detail-vs-noise differently).
So personally I think raw is probably more important for small sensors than for large.
"[i]Ah, ok, so big zoom is at expense of image quality, due to little sensor.[/i]"
No, the lens and sensor are independent. Big zoom is at expense of image quality, due to having to make a few very small bits of glass work at all focal lengths (wide angles being the most difficult). Superzooms often give strong barrel distortion and chromatic aberration at the wide end, and often strong vignetting at the long end. They also tend to have smaller apertures than primes or more conservative zooms.
My GF2 cost £250, is no bigger than a G12, and has a nice "clunk" when you press teh button.
"[i]has a nice "clunk" when you press teh button[/i]"
That's one thing I don't actually like about my GF1. If I take a shot with the GF1 I'll get heard; with the Ricoh I won't.
So, there is no optical zoom on the GF2?
The GF2 has interchangeable lenses. I assume £250 is body-only. You'll run to another £500 on top of that to have the same range of focal lengths as a compact superzoom.
This one here has a lens supplied, but i guess it is a prime?
This is getting complex!!
That's the 14mm prime. (28mm equivalent, in 35mm terms.)
£300 for that seems a good deal, TBH. (Though, personally, if I didn't plan to change the lens I'd have a GRD3 for the same price.)
If you buy a Micro Four Thirds, consider budgeting for the 20/1.7, it's a gem.
Whats the budget?
Some good prices right now on micro four thirds gear.. Panasonic are offering 25 quid off the lenses cash-back... some Olympus bodies are reduced by large amounts
E-PM1 looks good for a small package
The Panasonic g3 is quite small for a DSLR styled body
There's the new Panasonic X lenses which are very small... The X 14-14mm
http://www.dpreview.com/news/1108/11082615panasonic14-42Xpreview.asp
Mine was £250 w/14mm lens @ Dixons airport.
olympus sz-10 works for me at £150
Whats the budget?
Up to £400 i suppose, but i'd like to come it around £300
Some good prices right now on micro four thirds gear.. Panasonic are offering 25 quid off the lenses cash-back... some Olympus bodies are reduced by large amounts
Those look quite bulky though, i have a DSLR and was looking for a good pocket camera.
I know there are bargains to be had, but i need to buy in a mainstream place as the firm will be paying
E-PM1 looks good for a small package
Yeah, but a bit put off by the brand (i know, i know!)
The Panasonic g3 is quite small for a DSLR styled bodyThere's the new Panasonic X lenses which are very small... The X 14-14mm
I do like the look of it but can't see where you get the x lens with the GF3, otherwise it's bit bulky
http://www.dpreview.com/news/1108/11082615panasonic14-42Xpreview.asp
If you want a true pocket camera then all the interchangeable lens ones are out. The Canons and the Ricoh win on that score.
Can't find the Ricohs at normal outlets
Well if you want a zoom then that one's off the list anyway 🙂
After all that, it looks like the choice is between the TZ20 (or 18) and the Canon G12 at twice the price. However, the Fuji X10 looked lovely!!
Sorry for missing your earlier post, may be redundant now but the shutter lag on the S95 isn't bad at all really. You just have to anticipate the shot and it usually goes well. Doesn't take long to get used to, obviously it's not instant like a dslr. fwiw I think the S95 has the same sensor as the G12, that's the rumor I read anyway! It has a faster lens as well..
If you want a true pocket camera then all the interchangeable lens ones are out. The Canons and the Ricoh win on that score.
I dunno, a GF3 with the 14mm pancake is VERY small indeed. My GF1 and 20mm easily goes in a jacket pocket, not really a jeans pocket though.
I dunno, a GF3 with the 14mm pancake is VERY small indeed. My GF1 and 20mm easily goes in a jacket pocket, not really a jeans pocket though
Yeah, but that's fairly limited as a lens. Jacket pocket rather than jeans is fine. That's the G12 size. The guy in the LCS seemed to think that compact system cameras weren't so good. Populated by companies who couldn't get a slice of the DSLR market and so created their own niche, makes some sense.
I think a bargain priced G12 might be where i go, but the TZ20 is still attractive, and that Fuji X10!!
The guy in the LCS seemed to think that compact system cameras weren't so good.
I don't think that's a commonly held belief... seem to held in fairly high regard from what I read.
Of course, if you don't want to change lenses then your XZ-1 or the X10 are looking good.
The guy in the LCS seemed to think that compact system cameras weren't so good.
Probably good enough for most people...
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1041&message=39737569
This is shoot with an E-PL2 and 20mm pana lens
Google "Bob Tullis" he has taken some fantastic pictures with the m43 system
m43 is a good balance of size/weight/cost and has a decent lens selection
just two examples of size... theres tons on the web
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from
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1041&thread=39758160&page=1
I've no doubt the compact systems are good, but i' looking for a camera to replace my compact, i already have a DSLR for 'proper' photos. I just want something portable and tricksy
They are definitely bigger than compacts. If I were in your position I would not get a csc. If I were in mine though, I might 🙂 I've got a load of 4/3 lenses that I could use on a Pen if need be. I could get say and E-PM3 with the tiny prime or one of those small zooms, and then if I felt like it I could take videos with my 300m tele or my fish-eye 🙂 Also if my E-600 ever packs up at least I can still use the lenses on a modern camera.
However.. when I did get a camera to complement my SLR I got a tough compact. It's pretty limiting to be honest in terms of artistry, but I can strap it to my camelbak strap and I don't even need to stop riding to snap with it. Plus it was stupidly cheap.